Unimaginable Loss, Unexpected Lessons | Nick Shaw

[00:00:07] I think out of 1500 podcasts, I can't remember another podcast where I cried in the middle of the podcast. And I have on Nick Shaw, he wrote a book about an intense experience he had and his life after that.

[00:00:28] The book's called My Teacher, My Son, Lessons on Life, Loss and Love. Again, it's called My Teacher, My Son, Lessons on Life, Loss and Love. Beautiful book. But let's let him tell the story. Here he is. This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host.

[00:00:49] This is The James Altucher Show. Nick, I was very... I mean, I did not expect this but honestly I was crying while I read your book. And it was very moving and I'm really sorry for what happened to you.

[00:01:13] And I'm really glad you wrote this book and kind of got your lessons down. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. That was... My hope is that the book would have impact. That's kind of why I wrote it. Yeah.

[00:01:25] And I'll do an introduction with the title and all that. Well, actually this is sort of the introduction. So it's called My Teacher, My Son, Lessons on Life, Loss and Love.

[00:01:35] And Nick, it's your kind of journey of the loss four and a half years ago of your nine-year-old son in February 2019 and what's happened to you since then. And again, it was... I'll let you tell the story but I was really moved by it.

[00:01:55] But I don't know where you want to start. Like, do you want to start with the day that obviously the day your son died was the day that started all of this? And again, it's horrible.

[00:02:09] I couldn't help but think of my own children and how I would react. And you really have a brave example here in this book. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm happy to kind of start at that day because that is really where all this journey began.

[00:02:28] So on a ski vacation in Montana, Big Side Montana, I grew up skiing my whole life. Actually, skiing was a big passion of mine. And a day that started like any other day where all excited to get out there on the mountain and beautiful day, beautiful conditions.

[00:02:50] You know, I took William to the top of the mountain. He'd been looking forward to getting up there for a year because we went the year before but didn't make it up there. And he was a very good skier, right? He was. Yeah, he skied on the...

[00:03:02] He was nine years old but... Yeah, he was nine years old, skied on the local ski team here in Massachusetts. And I took him to the top of the mountain, had the run of his life like it was amazing. He was top of his game.

[00:03:13] I had a whole thing videoed on a GoPro. And then as we were heading down to the bottom of the mountain to meet up with my wife and my younger son, Kai.

[00:03:21] We were on a catwalk and for those of you who don't know what that is, it's a fairly flat road that kind of winds its way down the mountain.

[00:03:29] And I was about 10, 15 feet in front of him and as I was rounding up and to kind of follow this road on down the hill, a skier came whizzing past me and said, hey, was that your kid who went into the woods?

[00:03:44] Because William is a bit behind because you know, it's a fairly flat road and I'm heavier so my momentum was carrying me. So I quickly stopped, took my skis off and started to walk up the hill and he was nowhere to be found.

[00:03:56] At which point like did you start to fear that something happened? I mean it was a good question. I was walking up the hill and just to give a bit of the sort of context,

[00:04:12] off this slope it was kind of steep off the side of this road and it was heavily wooded with powder snow. So I walked up the mountain thinking, okay, I'm going to find him sort of buried in powder snow,

[00:04:22] having a hard time getting out which is typically what happens when you fall into those types of places. But as I walked up the mountain he was nowhere to be found. There was no impression in the snow or no marks where he may have skied off.

[00:04:32] It was nothing. It was like he just disappeared. And it was a bit unsettling because it's like, you know, I thought I was going to see him. So I ran back to my skis and then I started to go into the woods try to find him but

[00:04:44] the snow was so deep I couldn't get much further than sort of five to ten feet in and I fell into pretty deep powder snow and got stuck for a while. And eventually when I clawed my way out, someone who worked at the mountain saw me

[00:04:58] and asked if I needed help and said yes my son's missing and then a search ensued. And so I mean yeah I was in pretty panic mode at that point because I know he didn't ski past me.

[00:05:11] He was nowhere to be found in the woods so it's like, you know what, I just didn't even know or couldn't even understand what was going on. And there was no sign at all where you could last see his skis, the ski tracks?

[00:05:22] No, nothing. That was the weird thing about it and even when the ski patrol came the first thing they looked for is signs or tracks and they said well there's nothing here. He must have skied past you.

[00:05:33] So they sent me down to the bottom mountain to see if I could find him down there and while they continued to look for him. And were you in constant communication with them at that time?

[00:05:41] Yeah, so when I went down the mountain they hooked up with another ski patroller, a female ski patroller at the bottom of the hill and she helped me search for him and so she was in constant communication with them via her walkie-talkie. And then what happened?

[00:05:57] So I came outside after looking for him inside the lodge and I heard walkie-talkie kind of crackle alive and I heard the following. He's found but unresponsive and I was like, that just got punched. I fell to my knees.

[00:06:15] I just, you know, to hear that your son is found but unresponsive is just, yeah. So it's the worst thing you can think of but even in that moment you think okay maybe he's unconscious or whatever.

[00:06:26] So they then took me up to the hill about a couple hundred yards up the hill and there was a ski patrol clinic. So they took me on a snowmobile up there and then I waited for him to arrive

[00:06:35] and again I still thought okay it's an accident, maybe he's unconscious, maybe I didn't know what the extent of it was. So I was just waiting in the clinic until they finally brought him in

[00:06:44] and even when they brought him in, again you know you still cling to that hope and I heard a helicopter had come outside and I was like okay well maybe the helicopter's here so they can take him to a bigger hospital.

[00:06:55] So for a while I was still hopeful that he was just needing some treatment but then eventually the doctor came out and you know said sorry and couldn't do anything for your son. And like I mean there must have been a million things going through your head

[00:07:12] like first off when you saw him come in and you saw that he was unresponsive what did you think then? Did you think okay at least they're bringing him in to work on him?

[00:07:21] Yeah so I didn't actually see him because they kind of had me in sort of a waiting area and they stationed a nurse next to me or I think she was a nurse to kind of talk to me and try to calm me down.

[00:07:33] I don't think they wanted me anywhere near when he was going to arrive because they didn't want me to have any type of reaction. So I didn't see him actually come in, I just heard him come in or the commotion.

[00:07:43] Yeah and then again it's just the uncertainty of it all right you just don't know what's going on, you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting and then eventually you experience what you've seen so many times I know it's cliche but on all these different TV shows

[00:08:00] any hospital drama you see these scenes all the time on TV and then you're in it, you're actually literally in that scene you're the parent who gets told the worst possible news you could ever imagine. Yeah I think you have a statistic in the book

[00:08:14] I forget exactly, it was around 10 kids per thousand about 1% of kids ages 5 to 13 something like that die per year so it's a very small percentage and as you put it like now you were in that statistic, that set.

[00:08:30] Yeah I mean it's exactly you're, I mean we're in the modern time so child mortality is not as normal as it once was and particularly when you get to 9 years old right so yeah we were instantaneously outliers.

[00:08:46] And then they tell you and you haven't, you were by yourself more or less like your wife wasn't there, your other son wasn't there, your 6 year old son Kai wasn't there it was you and William that were up on the mountain

[00:08:57] and so again like that moment like what was going through your head I hope you don't mind me asking these questions this is what I do but I know it gets... No no no I have no, you know I'll talk about this to anybody

[00:09:11] I have no problem talking about it and I think the experience is a big part of it right so I think it's important people understand what happened I mean instantaneously you go into, you go into shutdown mode

[00:09:22] I mean like you know you, the stability of your life is gone in that moment right everything you thought your life should be how it should unfold that's completely shattered so you go into this crazy just you shut down

[00:09:38] like I was shut down and it was like I was in a fog I didn't quite understand what was going on my wife had gone there she had gone back to the cabin we'd rented to see if William had somehow skied there

[00:09:50] so she was making her way to the clinic at that point yeah it's incomprehensible and so your mind is trying to rationalize what happened and it's not something that you can even rationalize in that moment

[00:10:05] and so I'm just there just trying to make sense out of this thing and then I remember one of the first sort of real reactions I had was when I kind of realized okay well he just died and then I realized I wasn't alone

[00:10:21] and I was like that was probably one of the worst feelings because the first thing that I thought was what am I going to tell my son Kai like how do I tell a six-year-old that his brother is dead

[00:10:31] how do I face my wife who I was skiing that you know I was with Wayne when it happened how do I face her and that just really send me into yeah just an emotional spin and downward spiral of just you know guilt and just

[00:10:48] it was not a great place to be I can't even imagine all the conflicting emotions because you're right there's how do you tell your six-year-old how do you tell your wife not only that her son your son is not there anymore

[00:11:04] but also there's also you know and you hate to put it this way but there's also fear that everyone's going to blame you you mentioned this in the book like you know you were there with him yeah well and then you hear the horror stories right

[00:11:19] I mean you hear the horror stories about what happens when this kind of tragedy hits a family you hear about divorce and all kinds of other things that happen you I mean your mind just immediately goes to the worst possible places right

[00:11:31] you're just and so yeah it's it was hard and I remember that period of time where I was waiting for my wife to get there it was just like the uncertainty of it all was just like unbearable

[00:11:43] and I was just pacing back and forth and you know you just didn't know I didn't know what you I didn't know if she was going to you know just lose it on me or and it would have been understandable you know if she had done that but

[00:11:56] yeah it was just yet another period of uncertainty which was a pattern obviously for the next while in our lives after it happened yeah like those next few minutes why you were waiting for her

[00:12:07] and after you heard the news like what did you do did you just stand there was were people around you like what was what did you do then because I don't quite yeah no it's a good question I honestly

[00:12:20] I don't even know I mean it that you know some of that some of those kind of details are definitely a bit foggy I can imagine I think I was just I'm a very I'm an introvert and I tend to go inward

[00:12:36] as my place of comfort so I imagine I was just zoning out you just trying to figure it out inside my in my head I mean I was just the wheels were spinning and turning and going every which way direction

[00:12:52] that while I was waiting for her and then she shows up you see her yeah so this is one of the most amazing things that I think I've ever experienced my wife comes she rocks at a clinic and I think we're about 10 feet apart and

[00:13:11] and I tell her I said look he's dead and immediately she she crumbles to the ground she's you know just a complete you know the emotion overtakes her and so I rush over to her and I and I and I join around the ground we're both kneeling

[00:13:27] and hugging and then as we as we both stand up and she composes herself she kind of put both hands in my shoulders and she looked me in the eye and she said it's not your fault

[00:13:40] and I mean I was almost I was stunned in the moment right because I was expecting you know a different reaction and it's an amazing thing right that for her to have put her own pain aside in that moment

[00:13:56] because she knew that's what I needed to hear she knew obviously she knows me we have a good marriage and she knows just how hard I was going to be in myself

[00:14:04] through this whole thing because I was with William and so for her to say that to me in that moment it's one of the most selfless acts that I've ever had done to me right and and it's at the tone James because

[00:14:16] you know had she said something different it might have set me off or might have set you know cost friction between the two of us but that set the tone of how we were going to figure this whole thing out together and then you go back to

[00:14:28] the family that you were vacationing with they were watching Kai and you see Kai is playing games with his friend well first of all on the way there did you and your wife have any conversation like what's what's kind of like

[00:14:43] what do people talk about in this moment or is there just nothing to say yeah I honestly there's nothing to say I don't think we were we weren't ready to talk things out I think we're still we're still in this sort of zombie like surreal state

[00:15:06] maybe your brain is almost protecting you like okay you knew the next task was tell Kai the six year old you know younger brother of William and you just stayed focused on that like the brain wouldn't let you veer from that

[00:15:20] yeah yeah I mean I think that our brains are amazing things and our bodies are amazing things and they kind of they take over in those moments to try to protect you from yourself in a lot of ways and so yeah I think we were both just

[00:15:35] in going into that protective cocoon of silence and just trying to make sense of this thing so not much was said after on a short drive from the clinic to the kind of where our friends are staying and so you see Kai and what happens then

[00:15:54] yeah we walked into the apartment and Kai six years old he's playing with the the kids of family friends and it was you know here he is I mean I talk about this in the book you're looking at this very innocent

[00:16:12] child and you know that you have to basically shatter that innocence right you have to basically tell them one of the worst possible things that exists in life right it's the death of a sibling and so yeah in that moment it was it was heavy

[00:16:30] I didn't want to do it but obviously I felt that I had to do it because I was with William and so we just took him into a bedroom and I sat him on my lap and the best I could come up with is there was an accident

[00:16:45] your brother won't be coming back and he's in heaven and that's all I could figure I mean again there's no playbook for this right there's no sort of these are what this is what you say when this happens and that's the best I could come up with

[00:17:01] and you know he kind of just looked at me with his big eyes he didn't have an emotional reaction he just I think his brain was trying to figure it out to the extent that it could at that age

[00:17:10] and then he eventually just got off my lap and went back to playing with the other kids Is there a parallel in your life like when you were younger what's the first close loss you experienced how old were you? that's a good question I mean it was

[00:17:41] probably in college grandparents or yeah grandparents I'd say probably grandparents so maybe even closer to like in my 30s to be honest with I was fortunate not to have been confronted with that kind of loss in my life for me it was grandparents it was never anybody close

[00:18:01] like what Kai was experiencing then I mean that kind of close and I'm just trying to remember what I as a six year old was thinking and really I know I wasn't as sad as for instance my father because it was his mother that had died

[00:18:22] and I know I was more worried about I just didn't know what to do everybody was acting differently and I obviously was sad but I just didn't know what to do that's the only thing I was thinking yeah it's

[00:18:42] I'm not quite sure what I was thinking you know it's you know at that age you're just developing in a different place and at that age you still very much focused on yourself I mean I think there's a certain age where kids are very self oriented

[00:18:56] and that's just a normal part of development and yeah he was he's he's not a super emotive kid even to this day you know we went we went to the family therapist and we did all you know we got all the resources

[00:19:13] we could to help us through this ordeal and he just processed things in his own way and he must have seen over the weeks following he must have seen you know you and his mom upset and he was probably like was he

[00:19:31] were you trying to still comfort him while dealing with your own loss or was he in a weird way was there any reversal of roles like was he trying to comfort you yeah so I wouldn't say he was actively trying to comfort us

[00:19:48] but in a strange way so implicitly he was because so there's a specific event that happened which I talk about in the book in the days after William died my wife and I we couldn't look at any pictures it was just way too painful

[00:20:03] and as we were planning the funeral and all the things you have to do when you when you lose someone we had a bunch of friends over and they needed to get a picture for the

[00:20:12] obituary and so I gave them my phone I said go scroll through my phone and find one and somehow my phone made it into Kai's hands and so eventually I noticed this and I walk

[00:20:24] over to him and I'm like my instinct was I want to get that phone out of his hand because I don't I don't want him to feel that pain the pain that I was so afraid of experiencing you know had I been the one looking at pictures

[00:20:33] but then I got to him and he had his big smile on his face and he was he was just like he just wanted to see a picture of his brother and there was this resilience about that in him in that moment that was like wow he's

[00:20:48] if he's able to do that that's that's kind of where I hope to get to some day and so he became kind of like my inspiration on you know how to how to move forward and and and move

[00:21:00] towards the pain as opposed to move away from it now it didn't happen in that moment took me many many more months to get there for myself but just that moment was such a a salient point to see this little boy just like holding this

[00:21:12] phone and smiling and being okay you know I guess from like an like an evolutionary psychology point of view in order for a kid to survive as opposed to an adult who's who's developed all of their skills and has has their place in the tribe and so on

[00:21:30] a kid needs to adapt constantly to survive like from for millions of years I guess that's a muscle it's easier to have when you're when you're young yeah I think that that's that's right I mean kids are highly adaptable they first off don't have the years of

[00:21:48] formation and programming that we do as adults so it's easier for them to sort of change quickly right because they don't have the baggage we do as adults and I believe that served him in that moment in that period of time and then so you know and you

[00:22:06] you sort of describe this in the book but I know it's personal also but how did you and your wife start getting back on track because like as you mentioned obviously the first thing you thought of even was okay this is going to lead to divorce

[00:22:19] that's what happens in these situations it's hard to kind of stay together not only because there's pain constantly you're each reminding each other of the pain but there's also potential guilt and anger and and so on so I want to mention also that you actually

[00:22:37] and this this I thought was important is that the doctor told you upon the autopsy or like the coroner told you that probably William died instantly where he he thought William died instantly yes right that's right yeah he so the coroner's report you died from blunt force

[00:22:54] trauma to the to the head and neck or head and chest I believe and so that was that was for me a momentary leave because I thought he had somehow gotten stuck in this thing called tree wells or these sort of deep holes

[00:23:12] when there's a lot of powder snow and I thought he was somehow trapped there and suffocated or you know so I was obviously going to the worst possible places the fact that it was quick it was pain it was you know pretty much painless was

[00:23:25] small piece of relief you know over the weeks months years since then how important was it knowing that for your I don't want to say recovery but your progress like if you had heard differently would that have drastically changed things or

[00:23:43] I don't know it's good it's a good question James I mean so what before I found that out I can I can you know I tried to play the events of the day of that day I mean I played them over my head constantly and the biggest

[00:23:58] question was well could I some I got if I could have gotten to him sooner right what he have lived right and remember I told you I was stuck inside can move like the snow was like

[00:24:07] like I was in case in concrete but you know you hear stories of people doing superhuman things and lifting cars off their kids you know adrenaline kicks in and you know so I was like well why didn't that happen to me why couldn't I just power through

[00:24:18] why can't I just find him right so that was tough to have that as an open question was definitely haunting me and if I found out he died of suffocation or whatever yeah I think it might have been a different

[00:24:33] question I'd be carrying a sense of guilt with me it would have been a lot heavier I would say because you know you like to think you can do superhuman things when your kids are in harm's way yeah and also you don't want I mean so there's

[00:24:48] two things there one is there's thoughts that maybe you could have saved him and then two there's reliving and imagining what he might have been going through and so absolutely you know I guess that's a good thing that I think is a great thing in

[00:25:04] grace here is that it was just like a light switch flipped off in some sense yes so as opposed to him going through some bad experience you and your wife made use of a support group and there was a person there I remember who

[00:25:20] was saying how he was describing his own experience and after his daughter died which was he was older than he was born and he was in a different experience the day of happiness again and you kind of resolved

[00:25:33] you didn't want to be like that but when you heard that what what did you think it was I mean so we were just we needed to find a support group so there was one conveniently in the town next next the next town over so we said well

[00:25:46] let's go try that out and yeah this is where we heard that that statement and this is from like the guy moderating it and it was you know that it was like a hand in hand sentence right like it's it you're doing life

[00:25:58] of unhappy your sentence is a life of unhappiness and I was like that is I don't know that was the most demotivating sort of thing I'd ever heard right to I mean obviously it's terrible to lose your child but you

[00:26:14] you hope that you hope you'll somehow come out the other side and to hear that from someone yeah it was it was a hard thing to hear and and at the same time I you know my wife and I looked each other we that's we can't do that

[00:26:28] I mean look it's funny a lot of people like why you guys you're unbelievable you're an inspiration and I'm happy that we're inspiring people that's that's fine but we my wife and I had this result there was no choice

[00:26:38] right it's not like we were going to just throw in the towel and and and and then Kai would be at the mercy of whatever happened to him as a result of that there was no choice we were going to get through this

[00:26:51] come hell or high water because you know we had this up we had our other son and and and and we came up with a mantra it's one that I kind of came to me one day what would Willie want and and William would

[00:27:04] not have wanted us to to just throw in the towel and and and he wouldn't have wanted his little brother to suffer more than he had already so I don't know why but that was from the earliest days and

[00:27:18] maybe it started with my wife and I met in you know we saw each other in the clinic but we were we had this very deep resolution to not let this destroy our family what do you think would have happened

[00:27:29] or what do you think would have been different if you didn't have Kai if Kai wasn't there if you didn't have a second son it's it's it's funny you asked that because it's something my wife and I would have talked about a couple like we

[00:27:41] think thank God we have Kai right because if we had a second son I don't know I mean I don't I don't know if we would have said that because what are we fighting for I mean yes our marriage was strong but we had nothing anchoring us

[00:27:53] you know we might not have had anything anchoring us it's not me who knows right we did have Kai but it would have been a hell of a lot harder because you need something that you can focus your energies on something that

[00:28:05] you want that you can fight for and for us that was Kai and you know this is like a mad set of questions now but at what point do you allow yourself to enjoy things again like you know I know like I think it was

[00:28:21] that first week or weekend or whatever that you were able to just get your mind off things by you watch the movie but but that's just to get your mind off things to escape when do you actually allow yourself to enjoy and and how do

[00:28:36] you overcome the guilt that might come up when you actually enjoy something once again after the death of a child yeah it's a great question and I touch on this in the book so the when I think is different for everybody I mean

[00:28:54] ultimately James at some point you got to accept that this has happened you can't you can't just deny that it's happened and you have to make a choice that you're going to move forward and I know that sounds crazy but at like if you resolve is to

[00:29:09] try to live a normal life as you possibly can then you have to accept what's happened is I mean we can go back and change things you know for another part of the story that I'll share which is also in the book is you know we had

[00:29:26] another child so year and a half after William died our third son Boatie was born I'm at the hospital right and I know you have children so you've had this experience of you know you're in the post the post delivery room right near your you're settling down

[00:29:42] and they put Boatie on my chest and I'm sure you've had this experience but a common sentiment is like oh my god look I have this beautiful new life in my hands I wouldn't trade this for anything in the world and that was the thought

[00:29:54] that went through my head and then in that moment it's like wait a second I can't say that can I how can I possibly say that this is the I wouldn't trade this for anything else in the world because the only reason Boatie is here is

[00:30:05] because William died and so that was you know I'm having to hold these two things right death of one son birth of another which are which are linked I mean out you know I was at that time I was 44 45 44 right I mean we weren't going to have more

[00:30:22] kids right and that was really hard to figure out how to hold those things and do a lot of work therapists and support groups things of that nature you have to get to a place where you got to stop framing things as either as either

[00:30:39] or either I'm happy or I'm sad when you go through something like this you gotta you gotta find it in you to say well I can be happy and sad at the same time I can be happy about Boatie and I could be devastated about about William and

[00:30:51] you don't talk about this in the book but and you don't have to answer this but you know you had this a new son Boatie and you made the decision to have that son in part or maybe entirely because William had died and you talk about

[00:31:07] what your wife was going through in terms of her role as a mother and life decision she had made was it hard initially when you guys were regaining intimacy like again it's something you have to enjoy but it's yeah it's hard it was hard and

[00:31:28] it was hard and if I'm honest you know the process of bringing Boatie to life it was that super intimate it was it was it was functional right we had we did we wanted to do this so we were pretty clinical about it right we

[00:31:44] figured out what the time when the time was right we did what we had to do so I it wasn't it was an intimate it was just something we had resolved to do and so we did it and then you know obviously you know new

[00:31:58] child's there a new child takes a lot of time if you're in your 40s you're gonna be tired all the time with a brand new baby and Kai also now can focus on that he had has a baby brother or there's a new baby in

[00:32:14] the house did looking at Boatie particularly in those early days always remind you of William you know how did you avoid thinking of him as a replacement and give him his own life in some sense yeah it's so one thing we did talk about when we

[00:32:29] made the decision to have a child it wasn't it wasn't about replacing William because that would never happen it was about feeling of void right we you know we were family for there was a nice symmetry to that and we just felt very unbalanced

[00:32:42] and also we wanted to give kind of the sibling I was I mean that's that was one of the biggest tragedies is to have had to lose your sibling to use you know your older brother who you idolized right that was just for me one of the most

[00:32:54] heartbreaking parts of this whole thing and so if we could fill that voice on how that was that's why we decided to have Boatie and also to fill a void in our own lives so no that he I wouldn't say he reminded me of William although he

[00:33:07] looks a lot like William which is kind of crazy like it's they mean so Kai doesn't look as much as his two like his two brothers as the two of them look alike it's pretty crazy I mean people have seen pictures of them like when William was two

[00:33:20] and Boatie was two and three like it's like it's kind of scary but that's never bothered me I will say that you know what was tougher for me is in those early days you know you're having a baby is tough right and so

[00:33:35] when you're tired and you can't console your baby and that's the reminder of like well shit this is where I'm at again I'm at this stage of life I'm having to deal with an unconsolable baby and that was really hard because I didn't want

[00:33:49] to be there I didn't want to be in that phase of life I kind of I thought that ship had sailed and you know when William died we were just at the stage of our family sort of life where it was nine Kai was six

[00:34:01] like we were starting to do things as a family like this that stage where like you can actually do things as a unit and the minute that and that was lost as well so there was a long time where I was very I was very

[00:34:13] bitter about that I'm very bitter about the fact that now I'm the father of a newborn and I got to do this again and it it caused some tension for me and Susie and you know we had to have some sort of come to

[00:34:25] Jesus type of meetings or conversations but it's still something yeah that's that's where I had to find the way to like appreciate what I have and also be okay you know and not blame Bodhi or the situation on him because it had nothing to do with

[00:34:43] you know you mentioned come to Jesus meetings or talks but do you have a faith like it seems like I wonder if faith would make it easier to get through an experience like this yes I'm Jewish by ethnicity or by yeah I'm not we're not I'm not there's

[00:35:00] ever practicing Jew so actually be up before this before the tragedy that I didn't really pay much attention to religion I will say that since the since what happened I've become more spiritual for sure well just the name Bodhi a beautiful Buddhist name

[00:35:21] yeah I mean absolutely we and I was my wife's my wife's idea which I love but you know Bodhi is short short for Bodhisattva who are people so who for yeah who forego Nirvana to come alleviate suffering and that was we thought that was appropriate for him

[00:35:38] but I've I found spirituality at least what I what I think of a spirituality which is which is to try to look to something bigger than ourselves as a way of working our way through that the challenges of this life you mentioned a Victor Frankel quote

[00:36:10] Victor Frankel wrote man search to meaning about his experiences at Auschwitz in the Holocaust where he you know he lost his wife he lost his wife and the quote was the one thing the Nazis cannot take away from us is our ability to choose how we

[00:36:29] feel and I thought that was a great quote which I need to remind myself of more often and did you find solace in quotes and readings like that like to help you remind yourself absolutely I did a ton of reading

[00:36:43] again as a I tend to be a deep thinker and so I read a lot and I go inward a lot and so I read that that was an immensely powerful book because that is the one thing that's the only thing we can have control over

[00:36:56] right we as I learned the hard way we don't have control over much in this world but we can't control how we show up what our attitudes are what you know how we how we deal with the different situations in our lives and I know that's easier said

[00:37:11] than done but it's it's it can be done if you set that intention I wonder if though okay with like Fibrile Frankl is an interesting example where he did ultimately get out of Auschwitz and his suffering stopped for the moment or that particular

[00:37:26] suffering now he had the suffering knowing that his wife had died in a concentration camp and many people they knew but I'm wondering like given a complicated situation now like let's say you have a difficult situation at work or some difficult emotional situation usually people

[00:37:43] kind of tossed it off and say well every every day has its ups and downs or there's always ups and downs or you know I've been down so long everything's probably up from here but when you have like something a real tragedy happen sometimes things

[00:38:00] don't cycle back up right they could just stay bad and does that ever come into your mind now when considering situations when considering just any situations or like a bad situation you know that that every and then you the first thought might be oh this is one of

[00:38:21] those down moments but they're followed by you know things cycle up and down but but you have this realization or this awareness that sometimes things don't always cycle back up sure absolutely look I mean I'll be the first of it I you know

[00:38:33] even though I've learned a lot from everything that happened I'm I haven't put them as much in practice as I would like it takes practice and intention and there's many times I fall into sort of victim mode and woe is me and life sucks and

[00:38:46] and and either I catch myself and remind myself of you know Victor Frankel and even Susie when she when she had that reaction when she first saw me at the clinic my wife Susie or I get reminded by others right you know it's okay to make

[00:39:06] mistakes okay that you know to not always have the right attitude but you know hopefully we can catch ourselves so at a point where it doesn't do too much damage like how did you rebuild your work life so you took six months off and then you get

[00:39:22] back to work like how do you just start calling customers again and doing your job again and dealing with your co-workers and and now I understand you know you're onto you know bigger and better things as well and how do you do that I mean

[00:39:36] I think he's just in some ways that that's not as hard as you would think because it gives you a structure and a way to take your mind off things you know you can't it's we are creatures of habit so you know it wasn't at least for me

[00:39:53] it wasn't too hard to kind of fall back into the old habits I built around around work and again it was a way also for me to focus my energies elsewhere because I think you know one of the things about grief and dealing with this type

[00:40:09] of loss is you also need to break from it every now and again it can be it takes a lot of energy and I think you need to break from it and I guess knowing that you're doing it for something like you had Kai you had

[00:40:22] you know Suzy you had now then Bodhi so it allows you to give yourself permission to be creative again you know work requires good work requires some creativity absolutely and it allows you to give yourself permission to do that and it's kind of like how Victor

[00:40:37] Franco you know he had to find his why is his meaning and in order to push forward and that's what you're able to do around work and that drives it forward absolutely yeah I think that was part of it and I think you know you just use

[00:40:56] afraid finding your why for me my book eventually became my why right you know kind of put the sense the world was a you know was as meaningful and purposeful and endeavor it's by the most meaningful purpose thing I've ever done right it really yeah and

[00:41:12] your wife writes the the prologue and you know she starts off saying that you're complimentary but this is a nice way to say that you're the proverbial opposites who attract and and she says I say yes to everything and everyone and next first response is always no that's

[00:41:32] true and and she says that this book was very even the style of this book was very different for you I forget so she says actually that you you met on a blind date in Manhattan what did you first think of her when you first saw her I

[00:41:48] mean I was you know I don't know if you've ever been on blind dates James but you know it's always a bit of a crapshoot year yeah you never know what you're gonna get and this is like before this is like a mutual friend set as I was

[00:41:57] looking for all the dating apps but I was yeah I was like okay she's attractive cute and and and you know we really we had a real connection I you know we had a really good time on our first date like is the best

[00:42:10] first date I've ever had you know we just had fun it was easy it was never that sort of awkward whatever that you might experience sometimes and we you know we she was 24 hours 27th time it was a different different stage of life but yeah

[00:42:24] she just she was bubbly she was cute she was yeah it was it was a breath of fresh air for me yeah and then how long were you dating before you got married let's see so we met 20 sorry 2002 four years okay so

[00:42:42] obviously I know someone who was at your wedding or our mutual friend Dan and he was telling me that at the wedding Susie ran and jumped right into your arms as she was as she went down the aisle yes that's right yeah that's that's that's who she

[00:42:58] is she she's bubbly energetic likes have fun and an unbelievably caring person you know you said earlier that there is no guidebook for this sort of thing but I think your book is a guidebook like I was thinking as I was reading this like you know

[00:43:18] a I was thinking there but for the grace of God go I because this obviously any situation can happen to anybody but if something like this were to happen to me I would certainly you know not only the things we talked

[00:43:34] about many other things in the book I would certainly read this book over and take these lessons or someone I knew had this type of grief and tragedy I would get them this book like this really has is like a guidebook like I

[00:43:48] was thinking boy that's really great that Susie did it as that's really great that Nick thought this or this and I was noting you know because this is the scariest thing in the world particularly if you have kids and and and you know the impact they have on

[00:44:03] your life by the way nothing wrong with not having kids either but it's a particular kind of you know relationship and this would be a guidebook for me if something like this ever happened to me my kids are out of the house they're

[00:44:18] older they're in their 20s but still they no matter what you never outlive your your kids as you've experienced yeah yeah look I it if it can help even one person whether it's someone who's grieving or someone who's just having a tough going through a rough

[00:44:35] patch you know one of the things for me you know when you when you this happens you when you when your child dies before you it's it's sort of a it's a smack in the face of of of how fragile life is I mean you know we

[00:44:51] are five minutes from the bottom of the of the mountain right like five minutes and we would have been we would had our reunion with with susie and Kai would have kept skiing as a family like William was maybe 10 to 15 feet

[00:45:05] behind me right you know half an hour before he was having the time of his life like it's razor thin the margin on there can be between life and death and you know for me as a wake-up call like it and I say to

[00:45:20] my clients out time this ain't no dress rehearsal this is it like this is the one life you have that we know about anyway and you know if you're grappling with this or that like don't be okay with that do something that's going to

[00:45:34] bring more meaning to your life or resolve whatever issues that are you know giving you a hard time you know again you don't want to you don't want to leave this life with any regrets but I'm not saying throw caution to the wind but I think

[00:45:49] many people suffer unnecessarily for a slew of different reasons and my hope is that you know they read this book that you know they can make a different choice that'll bring them more happiness but you you coach leaders and CEOs correct like executives well what's your business

[00:46:05] mirror box leadership lab and what situations do you see them in that they suffer from that now with this perspective you you can say to them like why are you you know like what are some of the situations you suffer from but I think I think

[00:46:21] it's a it's a tough tough world right now to be an executive I think executives are caught in an endless cycle of doing the work being in meetings it's a constant and endless pace of stuff that's getting thrown out of day in day out and I

[00:46:39] and I see this is like this and it's like you do that you do that then you come to the end of year and you get a momentary pause then start the clock all over the next year and it's just like you're doing that every single year

[00:46:49] over and over again and I'm just like for what and I'm not saying you shouldn't be an executive but if there's a way that is active find a way to pause that's a big theme of the book is step back like pause focus on what

[00:46:59] really matters I think too many people focus on too much of what doesn't matter or is not as important for them to be focusing on me as a leader you should be focusing on are you on strategy are you are you making sure that the vision you set

[00:47:11] forth for your company is you're on track to achieve that are you developing your people are you showing up as a leader you should be or you aspire to be I've coached a lot a lot of leaders and the majority of them aren't and and I think

[00:47:25] that's a that's a shame because as a leader you set the tone for everybody you lead and you have a huge impact on the lives of the people you lead and unfortunately we all see the statistics of disengagement and people leaving crappy bosses things of that nature

[00:47:39] and it's because I think leaders don't take the time to be more intentional about how they want to lead and be as leaders well and again and you showed with this book that leadership is not just about the nine to five workplace but

[00:47:53] you could be leader in every area of your life and demonstrate leadership in even the most tragic areas of life and again your book my teacher my son lessons on life loss and love Nick Shaw I guess you get this on Amazon

[00:48:09] that's probably the main place people are going to buy this yep and it's a beautiful book I'm really sorry for your story it did make me cry reading the book and really seldom happens I read so many books for this podcast I can't remember the last time

[00:48:23] a book made me cry I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but thank you for writing it and thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing your story I know it's tough as you are selling this book to probably constantly

[00:48:37] share it but thank you for doing this absolutely and thank you for not being afraid to ask me the tough questions I think that's important I'll always do that I appreciate it honestly I think too many people avoid it and honestly my story is my

[00:48:55] story and I'm happy to share it yeah thank you thank you oh my gosh I almost had to walk out of that in the middle and I just want to mention the book is called my teacher my son lessons on life loss and love by Nick Shaw

[00:49:22] you can find it on Amazon and they also started a non-profit based on William and Williams life Williams be yourself challenge.org Williams be yourself challenge.org I also want to mention Nick's business is called Mirrorbox and once again is my teacher my son lessons

[00:49:44] on life loss and love even if you know someone who's been in this kind of tragedy buy them the book and you know good luck