The Power of Quests | James is Interviewed by Amy Morin

[00:00:07] Oh my god, so excited about this because Amy Morin, she doesn't know it but she's my therapist. She is a professional therapist But I had to fire my own personal therapist So Amy doesn't realize it, but whenever she comes on my podcast or I go on her podcast

[00:00:23] It's like I'm going into a therapy session Of course, you know her as the author of 13 things mentally strong people don't do Sold millions of copies. She's been on my podcast like five or six times or more and I'm really happy

[00:00:37] This episode is her interviewing me from her podcast and it's Me having a therapy session here we go This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host this is the James Altucher show on today's episode of mentally stronger I

[00:01:12] Talked to all these people who they talk about what they love doing But they sort of just give up on it like maybe they loved fishing or playing golf or cooking or

[00:01:24] Writing a novel or whatever, but they just felt like I got a mortgage. I got four kids They gotta have responsibilities Friday nights my favorite TV show I've got to watch that and So they just sort of like give up and go into this routine

[00:01:39] And I feel I look back on my life and I feel that the things that kept me feeling young and Creative and excited about the next day were not periods of success or periods of failure or

[00:01:54] exciting times of my life but periods when I was in love with something and Pursuit it Towards some end because I felt like there was a higher purpose to it Even if there there wasn't and I look back all through my life

[00:02:09] And I realized I was always on quests like King Arthur and his knights They want to famously on a quest for something called the holy grail I don't think they ever found it, but they had adventures along the way

[00:02:21] So quest is like some amazing thing you want to do you figure out what it takes How you could take steps to get there and you go on all these adventures along the way

[00:02:32] And maybe you achieve the end of your quest or maybe you don't and move on to something else But I feel like doing that pursuing Something you love in that way with that kind of energy and passion is really an anti-aging and

[00:02:47] Satisfying and creative strategy for life. What do you think? I think so too because I as you were describing that I was like, you know, I think I've had some Welcome to mentally stronger the show that will help you develop the mental strength

[00:03:00] You need to reach your greatest potential no matter what life throws your way I'm Amy Moran a psychotherapist mental strength trainer and an international best-selling author of five books on mental strength

[00:03:13] Every Monday, I introduce you to a guest whose story and expertise can inspire you to think feel and do your best in life And the fun part is we record it all from a sailboat in the Florida Keys Now let's dive into today's episode

[00:03:28] When we talk about mental strength we often talk about goals Challenging yourself to do hard things helps you learn about yourself And it also helps you see firsthand how your brain lies to you It will tell you to quit long before you need to

[00:03:46] Goals help us practice self-discipline and they can help you figure out strategies to manage your emotions Like how to push yourself to get to work when you don't feel like it and how to avoid temptation But sometimes goals are only about the outcome

[00:04:03] The idea is you'll enjoy life more or you'll feel better once you reach a goal But the process of working on that goal isn't always fun Now a few weeks ago I talked to New York Times best-selling author John Acuff about goals

[00:04:19] And one of his strategies for reaching goals is to incorporate more fun into the process I think that's vital Today I'm talking about something along the same lines yet a little bit different I'm talking about quests and how working on a quest

[00:04:36] Whether it's to ride the best roller coasters in the world or you have a quest to learn how to paint All of those quests could help you build mental strength Here to talk more about quests is my good friend James Altichur

[00:04:53] James is the best-selling author of several great books including Choose Yourself and Skip the Line He's also the host of an amazing podcast called The James Altichur Show Forbes once called James the most interesting man in the world

[00:05:10] Part of that is because he's always working on things which he calls quests Some of the things he talks about today are how quests improve his life Examples of what constitutes a quest And how a quest can contribute to personal growth and unexpected opportunities

[00:05:32] Make sure to stick around until the end of the episode for the therapist's take It's the part of the show where I'll break down James' mental strength-building strategies And share how to apply them to your life

[00:05:44] So here's James Altichur on how setting out on a quest could help you grow mentally stronger James Altichur, welcome to Mentally Stronger Amy Moran, happy to be mentally stronger I'm only mentally stronger during the one hour, two hour period that I will be on this podcast

[00:06:02] Somehow I don't think that that's the case Every time I talk to you I feel like I get stronger just from your stories I was on your show a little while back and we were talking I think we started talking about your desire to up your chess game

[00:06:18] And we were talking about my strange desire to keep trying to run a faster mile And out of that conversation you mentioned quests And I wanted to bring you on this show to talk more about what is a quest And why do you think we should have one?

[00:06:31] So maybe we should start with that. How do you define a quest? That's a great question. I've been thinking a lot about it because It's not a goal and I'll explain why And it's not like a purpose and it's not like meaning

[00:06:43] You know like Victor Frankl has this beautiful book Man's Search for Meaning When, and the concept there is with meaning is you're going through some degree of suffering And the way to get through suffering and pain and we all go through this Is to find meaning in life

[00:07:00] And that's a very serious thing and you know he was in Auschwitz And the way, and his family was killed And the way he sort of survived it was to cling to the thought that one day A. he would see his wife again which sadly he never did

[00:07:17] And B. that one day he would write down his experiences of what happened to him in Auschwitz And that gave his life enough meaning that he survived it So that's meaning And purpose is you know you think oh you're a great doctor

[00:07:34] Or as a kid you love medicine and the health field And you feel like your purpose is to be a doctor and save lives And move the frontier on brain surgery or whatever And so that's like purpose and purpose could change as your interest changed

[00:07:51] And the goal is like okay you might say when you're 25 Before I own my first house I'm going to make a hundred thousand dollar salary Or something like that, that would be like a goal

[00:08:03] And you have steps towards a goal like I'm going to get a job on Wall Street and blah blah blah So there's all these different kind of journeys that people go on But what about just an impossible journey that doesn't really have a clear life meaning

[00:08:23] Like I was just talking to someone who has been in every country in the world So that was his, he had this, it's not really a goal really It's sort of a goal but it's just something like outrageous But it's not a bad thing, it's not frivolous

[00:08:40] His life improved by going to every single country in the world Like he learned something about every country He learned how to do the logistics of going to every single country And he probably learned something about the people and cultures of all these countries

[00:08:55] Maybe picked up some languages So it's not completely frivolous but it seems like almost outrageous And I talked to all these people who they talk about what they love doing But they sort of just give up on it

[00:09:09] Like maybe they loved fishing or playing golf or cooking or you know writing a novel or whatever But they just felt like, ah I got a mortgage, I got four kids I got a, I have responsibilities

[00:09:25] You know, Friday nights my favorite TV show, I've got to watch that And so they just sort of like give up and go into this routine And I feel, I look back on my life and I feel that the things that kept me feeling young

[00:09:40] And creative and excited about the next day Were not periods of success or periods of failure Or you know exciting times in my life Or periods when I was in love with something and pursued it towards some end

[00:10:02] And because I felt like there was a higher purpose to it even if there wasn't So you know even, you know like for about six years I was obsessed with stand-up comedy And so my quest was to be a great stand-up comedian

[00:10:17] And I never became a great stand-up comedian Like maybe I was adequate enough to tour around a bit And I went to other countries even and did stand-up comedy And I got stage time all over New York City all the time

[00:10:31] So I achieved something but it's not like I really became like a great comedian And then I was doing it six nights a week But I did it and it changed my life And it taught me all sorts of new micro skills

[00:10:46] And it gave me a whole new subculture I was a part of and new friends and so on And I look back all through my life and I realize I was always on quests And again like King Arthur and his knights

[00:10:58] They wanted to famously on a quest for something called the Holy Grail I don't think they ever found it but they had adventures along the way So quest is like some amazing thing you want to do

[00:11:10] And you figure out what it takes, how you can take steps to get there And you go on all these adventures along the way And maybe you achieve the end of your quest or maybe you don't And move on to something else

[00:11:24] But I feel like doing that pursuing something you love in that way With that kind of energy and passion is really an anti-aging And satisfying and creative strategy for life What do you think? I think so too because as you were describing that

[00:11:42] I was like, you know, I think I've had some quests too That just I started doing something and found it to be cool Like when I was younger my friend and I, when we were in high school

[00:11:51] We, neither of us had really been out of the state of Maine And we went on a trip to New York together And thought this is really cool So our quest was to spend the night in all 50 states

[00:12:00] And so we took years but like I would just go for a long weekend To a random state and explore it And it turned into something really fun And I've now been to 49 Alaska It's the only one I haven't been to but

[00:12:11] I feel like you would have been to Alaska For some reason I could picture you in Alaska Right, like there's a whole story involved My luggage made it, I didn't, this whole thing

[00:12:19] But and I think there was part of me that just didn't want to finish it either I didn't want to like be done with it So I was like, no, that's okay, I don't need to go But it was this amazing thing

[00:12:28] And again, it didn't really have a purpose other than like Let's do this thing and it'll be fun And let me ask you, what did you, like What did you achieve? Like it's changed your life being in 49 Or almost all 50 states

[00:12:40] Even your luggage has been now in all 50 states So what did it change in you? You know I think I just learned about myself Because I hadn't really traveled that much So it was like oh yeah this is how So many different things work

[00:12:56] But in every state we would do something random Like we went to the Mississippi State Fair Or we would always find something like kind of a local thing to do Or something that we wanted to learn about

[00:13:06] Just to see like how do people live when they're in this state And what's their culture about And what my life had been like had I been born here And I think it was just that sort of a thing

[00:13:18] I'm like wow, this is really interesting to see how different people live Even inside the United States I can't imagine the person who traveled to all the different countries To see what the rest of the world was like But yeah, but it's interesting how you even describe it

[00:13:29] Like what you learned is sort of almost ancillary to the quest itself Like you didn't learn what the state flag of South Dakota looks like But you thought all these different things That if you had done the alternative which was

[00:13:44] Oh I'm just going to stay home that day and watch the Sopranos You wouldn't have had those thoughts You wouldn't have wondered what would it have been like If I had grown up in South Dakota How do I, is there a slightly different way I'm communicating

[00:13:59] With these people as opposed to other people And it's fascinating you know countries 3,000 miles wide And yet it's roughly one same culture It's maybe the largest, the widest single culture in the world And yet there are little subcultures in every state Yeah that was it exactly

[00:14:17] And so when we were going around doing all these different things Just taking a look at again how different people live And what it was like to be in the city versus the country And all sorts of things like that

[00:14:28] And then I think I learned a lot about myself Like when we would have trouble How do you ask for help? How do you strike up conversations with random people That you don't know anything about And how can you, I don't know, get along in difficult situations

[00:14:43] Because of course we ran into various challenges along the way Yeah and that's just it You run into challenges along the way And you have to trust because you haven't achieved it yet And so on the way towards achieving it And by the way it's almost impossible

[00:14:58] So in your quest it's almost impossible to go to all 50 states Probably 100th or 1% of the US tries to do that Or even less And so you're going to fail many times along the way Whatever failure means in this context And you have to overcome and develop skills

[00:15:17] New skills that you never would have had And again it's not something like Oh I'm going to save the planet or bring about world peace It's a very selfish goal Like I'm going to go to every 50 states And I don't care what anyone thinks

[00:15:30] And by the way then you have to deal with the relationships in your life back home Like you meet maybe a new guy Maybe the guy who became your husband And he's like what are you doing You're going to Wyoming for the weekend

[00:15:45] And I am busy, I can't go And you have to manage these personal relationships in different ways But you wanted to do it You loved doing it And it created adventures and excitement And then it's done And you move on to the next quest perhaps

[00:16:05] Or maybe the quest changed your life in such a way that You changed careers Like that's happened to me on quests Is that I've changed careers because of them in some cases And again there's ancillary skills you learn

[00:16:17] Like you know so one time this was when I was in my 20s I was always an early riser Like I wake up very early and I go to sleep very early And one time I was out at three in the morning

[00:16:33] On a Wednesday night in New York City And it was crowded So I was on 1st Avenue in Houston And I was like what are all these people doing outside of Don't they have to go to work the next day or school Or be home with their family

[00:16:48] Or why are they all out at three in the morning And so it's just this random thing I was basically kicked out of someone's house So I had to be outside at three in the morning And so the next day

[00:17:03] An odd thing happened which is that Comedy Central The TV channel asked me to do some consulting for them Software consulting And I wanted to build an intranet This was in the mid-90s And they didn't know what the web was

[00:17:18] And I said I'm only going to do this consulting for you If you give me the 3am time slot And let me just interview random people at three in the morning In New York City And it actually went They said we'll pay you money

[00:17:31] And I said no I don't want money And I didn't have any money I just wanted to do the 3am time slot And so this woman who was very nice I said okay I'll bring it up to the CEO And we'll see

[00:17:42] And so when all the way up to Doug Herzog Who was the CEO of Comedy Central at a time later He became CEO of MTV And he said no Because they sell valuable infomercial time At that time or they didn't

[00:17:52] But I then was able to do it as part of HBO's website And I did it for three years Every Wednesday night for three years I went out and interviewed like the craziest people At three in the morning only on Wednesday nights Because that's when

[00:18:06] You know not Saturday night where everyone's out But Wednesday night And it changed my life A.I. became a good interviewer I was very shy So I had to learn how to go up to people And say hey can I ask you what you're doing

[00:18:17] And it wasn't the nicest people at three in the morning It's not like a guy or a woman going to work Or something It's the opposite of what happens at three in the afternoon It happens at three in the morning

[00:18:27] And I interviewed probably close to several thousand people During this period And all like the dark undersecrets of New York I got to uncover and see that whole little culture And that was a quest I had Like what happens at three in the morning

[00:18:44] That was a quest I had for three years And it made me for the first time a published writer It exposed me to the entertainment industry Because then I shot it as a documentary And it exposed me to people completely different from me

[00:19:00] And satisfied my curiosity as well And I loved doing it I just loved doing it It was the best time of my life And what made it come to an end? Eventually I got serious about having a business Making websites for people

[00:19:17] Because so many people saw that site And wanted me to do something similar for their sites My company which was called My first company which was called Reset We specialized in making websites for entertainment companies So we did you know Every movie studio

[00:19:33] Almost every like gangster rap record label We did American Express dot com All sorts of movies like The Matrix, Scream We did all their websites And I really didn't enjoy business I enjoyed that 3am website And really enjoyed it every Wednesday night

[00:19:53] And I would bring friends of mine On the shoots with me And it was just like a party Every Wednesday night for me So besides some comedy And interviewing random strangers at 3am What other quests have you had? Well like the one I'm on right now

[00:20:24] Which is you know I think in late 2020 I got a little depressed There was a backlash A real harsh backlash on an article I'd written And I was having trouble I don't know I was just really disappointed In all the people who were lashing out at me

[00:20:44] Like friends, family And I don't know I just kind of shut down off of social media And I would just go in my office And lock the door And I'd start playing chess Which when I was a kid I was a played in tournaments

[00:21:00] I was the New Jersey Junior chess champion I was a chess master And I started to wonder Like can I I hadn't played in 25 years in tournaments And I still be as good as I was then Like things have changed The chess world has changed And I've changed

[00:21:18] And my brain's gotten older Can I do it? And this is something I love It's like my first love was playing chess as a kid And I was obsessed with it then And so I started really Training Then I started playing in tournaments And I talked to neurologists

[00:21:38] Sports coaches Sports psychologists Nutritionists Chess trainers One time I was on a chess training session And we couldn't figure out Why I was getting some mental aspect of this wrong So I said let me call my friend Amy And you came on the chess training session With Avitik

[00:21:58] And So it's been It's been a real Quest in a lot of ways I traveled all over the world I've had dinner with the best chess player in the world Magnus Carlson in Norway I've befriended Gary Kasparov The former world chess champion

[00:22:16] I've played in tournaments all over the world Or visited tournaments all over the world I write now for the Because of my success in other areas When the premier chess Magazine in the world Heard I was doing this They asked me to write a column for them

[00:22:32] Which is really awkward because I'm a level player who writes for them And then me I'm really embarrassed about it But then I was at this famous tournament in Amsterdam Where there were just about a dozen Of the best players in the world

[00:22:46] And I was an observer to it And this guy came up to me Who was a legend in chess He's been in like the top 5 Since the 90s And he said, oh my god James Alvatro I'm a big fan of your chess articles And I was for sure

[00:23:02] Thinking that all of them hated me Because I was like an imposter In the most important chess magazine in the world But it's put me on this Real intense Quest to Achieve something that no one's really Achieved to come back after 25 years

[00:23:18] And get back to the same level Like I've done some statistics Nobody has done this And it's really hard But I've had to learn All sorts of things about myself And experience Failure in a different way And I've had to And I've met hundreds and hundreds

[00:23:38] Of people now And also I've had to become In training I had to watch my diet Better I completely stopped all drinking I have to sleep 8 or 9 hours a day I've really been training I have to exercise a lot more

[00:23:58] Than I have the stamina that younger people do So So when it comes to chess How is this one different than a goal? Do you not have like an end goal for this? Or are you just experimenting to see how far you can get?

[00:24:10] No, I think my end goal would be to I mean I probably wouldn't stop with this But I do want to see if I can get back To the ranking I was Before So But even exploring Like what does that mean to be better than you were before

[00:24:26] Like every sport, every game Evolves over time So you compare like the best Tennis player now for instance To John McEnroe who was the best tennis player in 1980 John McEnroe was a skinny little guy Because there was weight lifting Didn't have as much importance in tennis

[00:24:42] As it does now And it's the same thing in chess Actually even with the weight lifting part But Chess itself the training in it Has improved As an example This guy Peter Nielsen who is the coach Of the best player in the world Magnus Carlsen

[00:25:00] He said to me maybe you are now Better than you were But the whole world has gotten much better So you don't really know And so this caused me to think About how we measure success in things And Also it's funny The whole younger people play chess now

[00:25:20] Than played when I was younger So that's they have so much more stamina Like kids And they study with computers They grew up with computers I had a different way of playing And I had to learn Completely new things as if I had never played the game before

[00:25:36] And so it's just So it's not just a goal though It's a quest because I might not It's okay for me to not succeed Like just It's not that the journey is the important part And the goal is not important The goal is very important

[00:25:54] But it's just what I'm learning Along the way like about myself And how I'm improving how I'm becoming the kind Of person who could achieve this quest That is beneficial in my life I mean I was talking to Robert Green

[00:26:10] You know Robert Green who wrote 40 Laws of Power And he keeps telling me Like oh my god James this is Going to be such a great book when you write this And I said to Robert you know I'm kind of failing at it Like I'm not

[00:26:24] At that level that I thought I would be And he's like what are you talking about You've succeeded beyond so many Expectations in this You think you're 20 years old And you're trying to be 20 years old That wasn't the goal to be 20 years old The goal was to

[00:26:40] Not necessarily the goal but you were trying To do something And it's how you've Be a person And how you Change in terms of dedication And consistency and resilience Like all of these things He said I want to hear about And experience what you went through

[00:27:00] And everybody who Loves something at a later age And pursues it Wants to know not necessarily that you succeeded But just what happened along the way And As this guy said maybe I am Better than I was when I was younger Oddly I have played Individual tournaments

[00:27:22] At a much higher level than when I was younger But I've also played worse tournaments Than I've ever played before so my variance This might be an age thing My variance has gotten a lot bigger And so that's why it's hard to tell Interesting

[00:27:36] Right, I never thought of that With chess that you can't really tell if you are Better it's not like you can go back And play against 20 year old James Well there's a ranking system And so my rank Is not my rating is not as high

[00:27:50] As it was and yet I've had what's called performance ratings Which are what you're waiting for A specific tournament or period of time I've had performance ratings much higher Than I've ever had before but also Much lower than I've ever had before So sometimes I

[00:28:06] Literally play like an old man Like I'll just make a move that Even when I just learned the rules I never would have made and it's so stupid I make now but other times I play brilliant so And how will you decide when to be done?

[00:28:20] Like how would you decide when to be done comedy? How would you think they'll decide I didn't love it anymore Okay Like at some point I loved comedy I was studying it like Literally maybe five six hours a day And then going and performing it

[00:28:38] I'd write and it really improved My writing too And improved my public speaking The skills you learn doing comedy Is like public speaking times a hundred It's incredible And then all of a sudden it's like A switch flipped And I had no desire to do it anymore

[00:28:56] Really? Okay And so if this Quest with chess stops being fun Would you just do the same thing? Yeah I would just stop But I just really love it right now Every day I wake up and I love it And you know I had a quest

[00:29:12] You know the quest to change Every quest has changed my life but like In the early 90s I had a quest I wanted to be I wanted to write a novel And so I started getting obsessed I wrote three thousand words a day I read every day

[00:29:28] I really wanted to do it and I was I wrote four novels, I wrote dozens of short stories I sent them all out to get published Probably got over a thousand rejection letters And I did this for like ten years Or maybe like six years

[00:29:40] Before anything got published at all And Ten years before I got paid to write anything And sometimes But I just loved it the whole time Like I just love writing and it became Part of my life And do you think most people

[00:29:56] Are like that, that they'll fall in love With something for a little while and do it Or do you think you're an anomaly? Well what, you know Like you're on, we talked earlier You're on a quest to run a Faster mile Like Do you think you're an anomaly?

[00:30:14] Um, you know I don't know Cause I like I suspect most people probably Could fall in love with random things too And maybe just a lot of people don't do it Maybe they don't experiment enough They don't try, they don't think that they have time

[00:30:28] Where they talk themselves out of it I think a lot of people talk themselves out of it Like let's say Every time you cook Let's say you rarely cook, but when you do cook You just love it, you just think oh my god

[00:30:40] This is so much fun and I love Eating people and seeing the reactions on their faces And you know you can think to yourself Oh I'd like to Be a great chef Or just get better at it And learn maybe a bunch of different

[00:30:54] Cuisines or learn how to make sushi or whatever And you don't have to be Obsessive, but it still could be very Life-fulfilling To Pursuit For instance one time I bought a lot of This is a random thing I bought in an auction a lot of Forged artworks

[00:31:16] So I have artwork hanging all over my house Right now where there's like a Picasso Andy Warhol Salvador Dali Jackson Pollock And you would think I mean these are excellent forgeries Like they're signed by the artist And It couldn't be the case that a single artist did

[00:31:36] There's a Banksy, I have like a British stop sign with Banksy Like stuff on it And I don't even know for sure if they're all forgeries But I'm assuming they are Because I got them for nothing And But like exploring this

[00:31:52] Like wondering if these are forgeries or not Like I really dived into the History of what was going on In the period of each artist And why did they do this Why did they do that And so having like even a small quest

[00:32:06] Like that was like a mini-quest And you learn so much about History and life and excellence And the pursuit of excellence And you know And all that ties into success And whatever your career is And so on Being excited about things Does keep you young

[00:32:26] Because what if I didn't play What if I didn't have these Just Training sessions every week And talk to these sports coaches And you And nutritionists And travel the world Meeting these amazing people To learn more about What I'm trying to achieve in this quest

[00:32:48] What if I didn't do that And you know I wouldn't be able to Live in a world Where I could have a home And watch TV That's fine too, no judging that And You know my kids are older I could do a little more of these things But

[00:33:10] I think my life is richer for it For having these conversations With people and really Putting myself out there So masters only. And because I was ranked the master when I was younger, once a master, always a master in terms of the rating system.

[00:33:27] And so I'm playing in the US Masters, but I was the weakest player in the whole tournament. And I amazingly, it was very possible. I told Avatik, my coach, it's possible for me to lose all nine games. And he said, don't say that, that's negative mindset.

[00:33:39] And so I've been learning a lot more about mindset by the way and trying to train my mindset to be a little more positive. But amazingly, I won the first game against a strong professional player, stronger than any player I'd ever be in when I was younger.

[00:33:51] And then the second round, I had to play the 14 year old Alice Lee, who's the most amazing prodigy in the US right now. It's 14 years old, but looks like she's nine and she's really strong rated. Like she might be as strong as Avatik right now.

[00:34:09] And I had a good game. I was doing better and I was proud of the decisions I was making. And then, and she was almost looking bored. Like I think her whole plan was she just knew, okay he has a good game now, but eventually he's not gonna,

[00:34:24] he's just gonna make some mistake and I'm gonna win, which is what happened. And there's a picture of me that a guy, a professional photographer took where it looks like I'm practically crying and she's just sitting there looking as bored as possible. And you know, it's just,

[00:34:40] why do I put myself through that? I was very painful to lose to a 14 year old kid. But you know, again, you learn about yourself. It's a safe way to practice failure and defeat and strategy and confidence and mindset. You know, it's safe.

[00:35:01] My life is not over if I lose that game. I don't lose money if I lose that game. I can still support my family and live my life the next day. But at the moment it's very depressing when that happens. Yeah, that's an interesting point though

[00:35:16] is if you're gonna have a quest to make it something where like there's not something huge at stake, right? You're not gonna do something where if it doesn't go well then life is ruined. But if it's just for fun and it's just a matter of saying,

[00:35:28] you know I'm gonna try this and experiment and see if it works and if it's fun I'll keep going. In fact, the last time I talked to you we were talking about why don't you just hire a trainer,

[00:35:38] Amy, to teach you how to run a six minute mile. Like you're close, but if you hired somebody who could probably tweak something. And I was really thinking about that afterward because I'm really resistant to hiring somebody and I think it's because it wouldn't be fun anymore.

[00:35:49] Like I feel like I can run a six minute mile and it's just a matter of tweaking something probably mentally and since I'm supposed to be the mental strength person, I'm like, all right there's gotta be some mindset tricks

[00:36:00] or something and I'm afraid of it not being fun anymore. So that's why I don't wanna hire a coach and I don't wanna like do serious training. I don't think you're afraid of it not being fun because let me just rest for a second

[00:36:11] then I'll just why I really think you're not hiring a trainer. Okay, all right. So I think you just revealed it but I think it would be fun because A, you would do it. So I mean once you had a trainer, the trainer would really improve you.

[00:36:28] Like a coach is essential for every sport and athletic activity and game and any discipline, mathematics, a teacher is needed, a professor is needed. Very few people can let's say get to PhD level by themselves in an intellectual discipline. That's not totally true but it's that basic idea.

[00:36:48] And also I think a teacher would tell you things about running, like how long in your life have you been a runner? I'd say four years at this point. Right, so a teacher would say individual sentences about running and you'd be like, oh my gosh,

[00:37:08] I never thought that about running or the body or whatever. They would say something that there's some subtleties about running that they know about, just why they teach it. They know things, there's a gap between what your knowledge is about running and what their knowledge is.

[00:37:23] So they would teach you things. They would say like, the most important bone is the wrist and you would think like, what the heck? Why would it be the wrist? And I'm just making this up. I'm not, it's probably not the wrist.

[00:37:35] But you would learn something that would be amazing and you would learn these subtleties that would deepen your love and respect for running. So when you watch other people run, you would notice, oh yeah, that's what my teacher was saying. That's what that person is doing.

[00:37:48] You would see new things. Like if I just look at a painting and I don't know anything about art history, I have a different experience than someone who is immersed in art history and sees all the subtleties. They can have a deeper appreciation

[00:38:00] of a piece of art or a piece of music or anything. Like my dad was a music composer and when he listened to music, it's like classical music was boring to me and he would listen and he would try to explain to me,

[00:38:13] this is the Sonata structure and this, this, this. And so there's all these subtleties that he was able to appreciate. So I think you would enjoy it more with a teacher because you would have a deeper appreciation for this thing you love doing.

[00:38:28] The reason I think you don't do it is because like what you said, you're supposed to be the mental strength person. You're really not on a quest to achieve this mile but to it in a certain speed, but to achieve it using mentally, you know,

[00:38:41] Amy Moran's mentally stronger techniques. Right, right. So far I'm close but I'm not quite there. Which is the beauty of a quest. They always got close to the Holy Grail but they never got it. And I think part of that is just that,

[00:39:10] like, you know, I don't really care if I never run a six. My life will never change, whether I run a five and a half minute mile or 10 minute mile, like life's still the same. But you want to do it.

[00:39:21] It's not like you're not trying to do it. You do want to do it. Yeah, like it would be cool to do it but like every day I'm done work, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go run as fast as I can and then I'm done with it

[00:39:31] and I think, ah, you know, not today, maybe tomorrow. And I like that. And people are like, why would anybody like to just go run as fast as you can? For whatever reason, like I loved it when I was a little kid.

[00:39:42] We have like video of me when I was four and I'd like to make my mom time me. I'd run like a lab around the house and make her time me. So I've been doing this since I was a little kid.

[00:39:49] I didn't run for most of my life and time myself in adulthood. But then when I did, I was like, I just want to see if I can do it faster than I could when I was like 13 or 14. Which started as the original goal

[00:40:00] and it's kind of grown over time but... So you almost feel like you're cheating if you have a trainer? Because you don't have a trainer? I think so. Right. So I guess for me, I think it would take, like I get that I would learn about it

[00:40:11] but I also think it would take some of the fun out of it. Like I don't want to spend eight hours doing hill sprints on a Saturday or anything. I'm just like, at the end of the day, I just want to run as fast as I can

[00:40:20] and check the watch today. And see part of the reason I like having a trainer is A, when I was younger, I had a trainer. And so I'm just repeating what I did then. But also in my last book, Skip the Line,

[00:40:33] I wrote about when you want to learn something, you get a plus minus equal. So a plus is someone better than you, a trainer or coach to teach you, equals people who are at your level that you share your experiences with and you learn from each other.

[00:40:48] And a minus, someone you can teach. So all these things, and the reason you want to teach someone is because you don't fully understand something unless you can explain it simply. And so all these things I put into place, as soon as I decided, okay,

[00:41:01] I'm going to get back to this level of chess. Like I got myself plus minus equals. And pluses in various levels, like again, not just chess coaches but other types of coaches. So for me, it's a different type of quest. Your quest is specifically to do it

[00:41:23] with your own mental strength and your own raw abilities like you did when you were 13. So that's what these quests could be like informally structured. And but it's just, it's something that makes us happy and it's something that we have to become at some point a better person

[00:41:43] or a better version of ourselves to achieve the quest or as part of that process. If you regularly start running that faster mile, something has moved up in your health probably or in the way you do things. And you learn from the experience. So there's all these benefits

[00:42:05] and I do think it's exciting. Like if you were to run a faster mile you would be very happy about it. Right, right. And then I'd probably move the bar. Yeah, or change them, have a different quest. Right. So how do you suggest people find it?

[00:42:21] If somebody's like, you know, I don't really know what my quest would be. How can people figure out what to make their quest? It's really interesting because I think it happens a lot by accident. Like I didn't play chess for 25 years.

[00:42:32] Why didn't I do it at any time then? Or I didn't do stand-up comedy the first 40 years of my life. Why did suddenly at 40, whatever I start doing it? I think it kind of happens. I think we collect over time all these things that we say,

[00:42:48] you know, I'd like to try that and then we forget about it. And or, you know, or, ah, you know, I always, when I was eight years old I always loved basketball. I wonder if, you know, I don't even pay attention anymore.

[00:43:01] Maybe I should do a fantasy-based basketball league or whatever. Like there's all these things that we collect in our heads the things that we might want to do or could do or maybe we would want to do. And so one idea is to, I'll give a couple ideas.

[00:43:15] One idea is list all of the things like every year of your life. What were you fascinated by? So when you were six years old did you love reading about astronauts? When you were seven, did you love superheroes? When you were eight, did you love sewing

[00:43:32] or painting or whatever? Just list them and see if anything kind of rings a bell now or just try it now and see how you feel about it or go to like a class or a club or whatever or meet up where everybody's, you know, sewing

[00:43:47] or just see how it feels. And the other, another idea is go to the bookstore and just find, just walk around and is there any section where you stop and you suddenly want to read all of the books in that section?

[00:44:04] Like let's say it's the World War II, do you want to read all the books in the World War II history section? And it just fascinates you. Well, then just do it and maybe write your own alternative timeline of World War II. Like what could have happened?

[00:44:17] Like there's, with any one subject there's millions of types of quests within that subject that you could do. You know, like for instance I mentioned basketball. Okay, no, if you're 50 years old you're not gonna be a professional basketball player

[00:44:30] or even be close to how good you were when you were 20. But maybe you can be the best at fantasy baseball or maybe you can be the best at writing articles about basketball or coach, like Joe, I'm forgetting his name. He was the CEO of Ameritrade.

[00:44:49] He's been on my podcast. So this guy was the CEO of Ameritrade, CEO of banks and billion dollar companies for 40 years. And then he quit. And what did he do? He became an assistant coach I think of the University of Nevada football team for free.

[00:45:05] He offered to do it for free. And then he learned and he rose up and eventually he became coach of the East Carolina Panthers or in some like minor league of football. And then he was a professional coach for a while then retired from that.

[00:45:20] And you know, all of a sudden he would play football when he was a kid but all of a sudden he had this obsessive urge and he had the money and the security and whatever to quit his job and volunteer to be an assistant coach.

[00:45:33] But he, this was his dream. He pursued it. Other people might quit and start a food truck and they don't wanna do a whole restaurant but a food truck allows them to have that restaurant kind of feeling. So there's always ways given a subject to pursue it.

[00:45:49] Could be a gambler and pursue basketball that way. But there's thousands of different ways. So, you know, I could have built some kind of chess related business or wrote written articles about chess or something instead. But instead I wanted to see if I could play again.

[00:46:07] And I don't know. And then, you know, I was thinking a third way a lot of times I read something and whatever it is, the storytelling is good and it matches some deep, you know, hidden desire inside of myself that I become obsessed.

[00:46:28] Like I didn't start day trading until I read a book about day traders. And I was like, wow, this like combines my interest in investing and computers and games because day trading is essentially a game. And then unfortunately for about eight years I became a day trader

[00:46:48] and it was the worst eight years of my life. But that was a quest. So, you know, anything can trigger that like or you watch a TV show that was about pilots and you're like, wow, I'm gonna take pilot lessons.

[00:47:02] And then, you know, you become a on a quest to get higher and higher certifications in piloting. And then, you know, I don't even drive a car and I've had pilot lessons and considered becoming a pilot. But fortunately I don't even drive a car.

[00:47:19] So it's probably best I don't do that. But, you know, I think you're right. I think if we all had quests that we were working on again, whether it's like I just wanna paint one painting a month or I wanna keep painting stuff

[00:47:33] until I sell something on my online store or whatever somebody develops. Like, I don't know if there's research on how good that is for our mental health but I can only imagine that it's gonna be great for people to have something to do

[00:47:45] that doesn't really have a clear purpose of like I'm doing this just to earn X amount of dollars or I'm doing this to better the world. Instead, it's something that I love to do and I'm gonna allow myself to do it.

[00:47:56] And by the way, in my turn into something you make millions of dollars with you just never know. But like, and you can have mini quests. Like, did I ever tell you the story, my Greenland story? Oh, I know the, I think I know the Greenland story.

[00:48:11] So like one time I was hanging out on Twitter like one does and Donald Trump when this is when he was president, he tweets out, I wanna buy Greenland. Just tweets out, I wanna buy Greenland. And I'm like what the heck?

[00:48:24] And then the prime minister of Denmark responds and says it's not for sale. And these two tweets like literally drove me insane. Like you can offer to buy a country just on Twitter like that. And what does Denmark have to do with Greenland?

[00:48:42] It turns out Denmark owns Greenland and they just did an entire mini negotiation right there on Twitter. Like where Denmark said no and Trump couldn't buy Greenland. So I started looking into this and I'm like there's a reason you would wanna buy Greenland

[00:48:59] by the way is that if it was its own country which I always thought it was it would be the highest suicide rate country in the world. And there's a lot of problems with alcoholism there and people are cold and lonely there. But Greenland after China

[00:49:14] is the biggest source of rare earth minerals. And there's a company even like Green Earth, sorry Greenland Minerals Company and it's owned by China. So Denmark has basically sold all these mineral rights to China for the rare earth minerals in Greenland.

[00:49:31] That's why Trump wanted to buy it for America so he didn't have to depend on China. And so I figured you know what? I wanna do an experiment and this is like a mini quest. I started a Kickstarter to raise $100 million to buy Greenland.

[00:49:49] And actually it ended up being an Indiegogo Kickstarter rejected me or a GoFundMe one of those. And I offered like, oh you could be a Duke if you give like $1,000. You can have a holiday named after you. If you give so much, you can have some 1,000 acres

[00:50:04] you give so much and I started and it was an experiment. AI had never used any of these crowdfunding platforms before so I learned about that. And then it was also an experiment in writing. Like writing it's usually one or two formats

[00:50:23] you write in the third person or the first person. Some very rarely the second person. Sometimes people write articles in the form of letters back and forth to people. It's called the epistolary style. So there's all these kinds of points of view you can write from.

[00:50:38] Well, I wanted to write an article as if I was doing a crowdfunding campaign about the subject of the article. So I'm basically able to describe this whole scenario with Greenland like why someone would wanna buy it by writing in the form of doing a crowdfunding.

[00:50:57] And then so many people were actually donating money to this that GoFundMe or Indiegogo or whoever it was, they shut me down because they knew I was just joking around and they didn't wanna have to pay all the credit card fees once they returned all the money.

[00:51:11] So, but that was like a mini-quest, can I buy Greenland? I remember that because I remember seeing that going around social media and I was like, oh what is James up to now? Yeah, and I learned so much about it.

[00:51:24] It took a weekend, it was a weekend long quest. It wasn't like this thing now that I'm in that's years or whatever. And at the very least, I learned all about crowdfunding, not all, but I learned about crowdfunding. I experimented with another style of writing.

[00:51:40] I learned all about Greenland to the point where I still wanna visit there and I have a story to tell. So that's like the minimum benefits of a weekend long quest. And a longer quest, there's so many more benefits. It's ridiculous. So I like that.

[00:51:56] So if we don't wanna spend the next four years working on a quest, just take a weekend and you can probably test something out or see how it works. Yeah, like if you always wanted to do stand-up comedy, it's really hard to do it that first time

[00:52:11] because it's scary. Everybody is scared. I saw a little documentary where Will Smith wanted to do stand-up comedy. This guy has been a performer all his life, not only just an actor where you read lines written by other people, but he's a musician.

[00:52:24] He was a rapper and his star was as an entertainer. But he was scared to death of doing stand-up comedy. He was terrified and Dave Chappelle was his coach. He got Dave Chappelle to coach him on how to do it.

[00:52:37] And he did it and he did a pretty good job. But that was just his quest for one time, like a mini-quest. I love that great idea. So I think Skip the Line will help people also figure out more about your micro skill idea and things like that.

[00:52:54] And we'll link to your podcast in the show notes because everybody should go listen to the James Altucher. So any place else we should send people so they can learn more about you and your work? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, they eventually I'll write about this.

[00:53:10] And the funny thing is I don't know whether to write about this in the form of like, okay, this is my chest journey or really make it like this bigger thing about quests. I'm feeling like the bigger thing about quests is better.

[00:53:20] But I almost don't wanna do another choose yourself kind of book. I really want this to be more story driven. That one was story driven too, but this one's even more story driven. Well, you know, I guess whichever one you do I look forward to reading about it.

[00:53:35] And as long as you share the story of how this is all going with chess so we can follow along that will be fun. Do you think there's a book there if I never achieve the rating I wanna achieve? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[00:53:48] Because I think sometimes we wanna be like, how do you feel about never getting there? And if you don't ever get there, like are you really okay with that? Or when did you decide to throw in the towel and say, all right enough's enough.

[00:53:59] I think all of that would be make for an interesting book. What's really interesting is how much the brain has changed since I was younger. And people say, oh no, that's just a mindset thing. But it really is like memory is not as good.

[00:54:11] Your raw like fast intelligence like your ability to think quickly is evaporated. And you have to actually learn the subtleties in order to be better now. I have to learn why certain moves were made before I would just make the moves. Now I have to learn why.

[00:54:32] And that's been the hard part for me in this and it's interesting. Well, we're appreciate that you're gonna share the story so we can all learn from it. James Altiger, thank you so much for being on mentally stronger. Thank you for having me

[00:54:45] and I feel mentally stronger always when I talk to you and me so thank you so much. Glad to hear it. Welcome to the therapist's take. Let's break down James's mental strength building strategies. Here are three of my favorite strategies that he shared.

[00:55:02] Number one, create your own quest. When thinking about a quest you might imagine something that involves a lifelong journey. But James switches quests whenever he wants from anything like comedy to chess. And you can always develop a mini quest too

[00:55:21] like in his case it was trying to buy a foreign country one weekend. But I hear from so many listeners and readers who say they're kind of bored with life. So I think this could be a great solution. You can feel like you're still growing and learning

[00:55:38] and doing something fun without all of the pressure that you might feel when your sole purpose is to do something that involves earning money or when you're so focused on the outcome that you forget to enjoy the process. Number two, pay attention

[00:55:54] to what you're learning along the way. James talks about how his skills from one area of his life translate to other areas. Something that's really tough to recognize sometimes. But when you step back and think about what you're learning

[00:56:10] it might become clear how your quest is helping you in what seems like a completely unrelated area of your life. Learning the art of Chinese cooking might also teach you to be more patient with your kids or setting out on a quest to learn about your family history

[00:56:28] could help you become better at asking questions which might help you ask better questions at work so that you can do your job better. Connecting some of those dots can give you confidence and help you feel better about your quest. And number three, change your quests as needed.

[00:56:48] So the pressure's off because you don't necessarily need a lifelong quest. Shift it as needed. James says he stops doing a quest once it's no longer fun and then he finds another one. So don't feel like you need to stick with your quest forever

[00:57:03] or that you need to decide on a single thing that you're gonna keep doing year after year. I love the idea of exploring with a bunch of different things to see what you love or to discover what you might wanna do. And every time I talk to James,

[00:57:18] I just get inspired to try new things. So I guess my task now is to probably come up with another quest in my own life. So those are three of James's strategies that I highly recommend. Create your quest, pay attention to what you're learning along the way

[00:57:34] and change quests as often as needed. If you wanna hear more from James, check out his podcast, The James Altarter Show. Thank you for hanging out with me today and for listening to the Mentally Stronger podcast.

[00:57:48] If you like the show, leave us a review on Apple or Spotify. That's one of the best ways to help us get our show in front of other people so we can make the world a stronger place. If you want more tips on building mental strength,

[00:58:00] subscribe to Mentally Stronger Premium. You'll get weekly bonus episodes and exclusive extras for being a premium subscriber. Sign up at mentallystronger.supercast.com or just click on the link in the show notes. And if you know somebody who could benefit from learning more about mental strength,

[00:58:18] share this show with them. Simply sharing a link to this episode could help someone feel better and grow stronger. And as always, a big thank you to my show's producer whose quest seems to involve making things possible that once seemed impossible. Nick Valentine.