Perfecting the Craft of Mystery | Jonathan Kellerman

[00:00:06] This guest has sold so far over a hundred million copies of his books The thriller writer is a suspense writer His latest book the ghost orchid and Alex Delaware novel just came out

[00:00:19] Jonathan Kellerman, and I have to say this book was riveting from the beginning to the end You don't have to read any of his prior books to get completely what's happening it's about a psychologist who also likes to solve crimes and

[00:00:34] Jonathan Kellerman himself was a psychologist at a whole career in that that he left behind when he started writing So we talk about everything from how to write a thriller To his career and the hard stuff along the way and so much more great conversation

[00:00:51] Great book. Here's Jonathan Kellerman This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host This is the James Altucher Show Jonathan I love the living room background there. That's a real background, right? That's my office

[00:01:20] Wow, that is a great office. That's actually my office when when we bought the house I I built myself a nice office. I Have an okay office, but my books are a mess like I've got a work

[00:01:31] Like it really looks professional when you have like a bookcase like that behind you I mean even though like some of those books like the brown books are just like antiques, right? They're not You know actually the bathroom and read those books This is gonna sound terrible

[00:01:46] But every book you see is a book is a book or a translation of the books that I've written These are all my my books because I've written 60 books these are all and the publishers used to give me leatherbound copies when a book came out now

[00:02:01] They've cheaped out because that's publishing now. So Yeah, that's funny because even though you make you clearly make them a lot of money like oh, yeah You I mean you've sold 80 million copies of books some crazy

[00:02:12] No, I'm more probably more right. Oh, probably close to 100 million at this point But they're always bemoaning the fact Yeah I mean This is like a really naive question and then I want to get into your latest book and and writing in general yet How does it feel?

[00:02:29] Again, this is like a dumb question But how does it feel knowing that 80 million people more or less or a hundred million people more or less have read something You've written I don't know if it's I know it's actually 80 million because it's a lot of books

[00:02:42] So oh, yes people read like the whole Yeah, maybe millions of people. I mean I don't it's kind of cool I never really think about stuff like that I I don't introspect and I just kind of concentrated on writing books But it's it's just nice to be appreciated

[00:02:58] It shocks me because I never thought this is gonna be my job I think that's like a wonderful thing for any writer I mean, I've written a bunch of books some of them have been bestsellers, but it's never been

[00:03:11] It's not a career. I mean it's it's never been a living for me like I love writing but it's never made enough to be a living for me and You know like one or two books out of 20 will do surprisingly well and you make some money

[00:03:25] But it's not like I could I could live off of it, but you've been able to And I really admire this you've been able to just Completely switch careers that it was and you had a great career you were like a PhD child psychologist ran

[00:03:42] Departments and we're no known it's sort of like how James Patterson was like the head of an ad agency Like that was his life and now nobody knows that they all know him as the writer

[00:03:52] I think a lot of people know I am a psychologist because I write about a psychologist. I I never saw writing was a serious job I thought it was something that I was addicted to and I've been writing since the age of nine

[00:04:06] And I won writing awards and blah blah blah, but I was gonna be a psychologist That's what I wanted to do and I was a medical school professor And I did some pretty heavy stuff, you know working with kids with cancer

[00:04:18] That was my career then I went its private practice When I was 31 and lucked out we had a huge practice. I had three people working for me I was really busy. I love the work finally got published in 85 And for five years I basically

[00:04:34] Had five bestsellers while in full-time practice because I'm so conservative and cautious First of all, I love what I was doing. I love, you know clinical psych was a great field every day

[00:04:45] You're doing good deeds and you're helping people and kids are fantastic to work with very gratifying job and And also I just didn't think this writing thing even though. I mean my my first book was bought for small change

[00:04:59] Okay, but then it was made into a tv movie like did you yeah, but that's how I did it It was the bestseller before they made it into a tv. The thing is It's like most businesses publishing was a business of self-fulfilling

[00:05:11] Prophecy and people and some books are bought as big books and my book was bought as a small book Which means that publisher wasn't going to put anything into it

[00:05:20] They sent me around and I was lucky because I was like the freak of the week shrink rights novel So I got a lot of attention and good reviews word of mouth became the bestseller Nobody was more surprised than my publisher

[00:05:33] So the advance was so small that I calculated I got three bucks an hour to write that book Okay, and I said to myself god. This is so much fun

[00:05:42] But I don't know if I can afford to do this because it takes a lot of time and the money sucks And I you know, I have kids to support and I love my works and then it became as a bestseller

[00:05:53] So I said, okay. I'll try. I'll do another one became a bestseller So all right, let me do another one. It was a huge bestseller the thorough was on my So that I'm sorry to shake this is crazy and and after five of these books

[00:06:08] I start to taper down in my practice I was willing to accept the fact that this might work And to my utter shock I've been doing this for 40 years and it's it's crazy I I don't understand it because I never write commercially never

[00:06:24] I never set out to write a bestseller. I write what I want to write And enough people like it That I'm lucky I think and you know an important concept just in terms of like, yeah the grit aspect of this you you

[00:06:37] You didn't quit your day job. You know how people say They read someone's first and I was like man, don't quit your day job Right, you didn't quit your day job. No, you were trying to mitigate the risk

[00:06:46] You had a family to support and and you know, that's a very people people think entrepreneurs take risks And a writer has very similar mindset to an entrepreneur. Yeah, you know, it's all about risk mitigation Because you lose the game if you go broke

[00:07:02] essentially 100% I I'm allergic to poverty I didn't grow up with a lot of money. I don't like it and uh I was doing very well as a psychologist very comfortable

[00:07:12] I I remember uh when I published my first novel it was 85 and I was driving a brand new jag Beautiful jaguar and and the publicist came up to me. She said, oh, it's a nice car I said you see I don't need you guys

[00:07:24] So I was doing fine and it gave me I think a psychological edge Not that I was snotty, but I could take a more mature attitude for it But you're right. It's just I I'm risk averse. I'm not stodgy

[00:07:38] I'll invest I'll do things, you know, if you invest enough you're gonna win mostly ultimately and you're gonna lose some You know, you can't not move and do anything But I just love to write and I'm just grateful. It's just the greatest job in the world

[00:07:53] How long it'll last? I've been lasted for a long time and I keep going I'm almost 75 years old and I feel good and my genetics good My mom was almost 103 when she passed So I had a living parent in my 70s

[00:08:06] But you never know so I I just I just take it as it comes and and I'm I'm still shocked By the fact that I've been able to do this and that my wife's been able to do

[00:08:16] I know your your wife your kids. It's like I'm gonna we'll talk about that because it's very interesting and Um, but um like before you're so you were like writing in the garage at night Yes, you know, again, there's analogies there to entrepreneurship

[00:08:31] You and Steve Jobs had your creativity in the garage right the classic garage, but You know, I'm assuming and and I've read in places you had some novels you had written You had some rejection before that very first one was accepted. Oh, yes

[00:08:45] I had 13 years of straight rejection and nasty rejection not nice rejection And um, I think I wrote nine novels that didn't get published deservedly So there was no conspiracy to keep me out of publishing. I needed to get good enough basically

[00:09:01] I feel like every writer has been through that including again in my own limited way myself. It was about 10 years of Oh, no, sorry. It was also 13 years before my first I had a book about finance and then switched to other stuff, but

[00:09:16] Why do you think you stuck with it? Like you had a fulfilling job You had a family you had responsibilities And 13 years of rejection at some point you got to say to yourself. Maybe i'm not good

[00:09:28] Maybe this is not for me. I said that many many times. I quit many many times What I learned is that I was addicted to it Which is something a publisher shouldn't know because then they take advantage of you

[00:09:39] But I I've been writing compulsively since the age of nine. I just love to write. I love books I love to read. I love to write I was always the kid who would write other kids essays for them I wonder about your writing awards

[00:09:52] I won't say it came easy, but I liked it and there was a certain flow and I was fairly fairly good at it So I just like doing it and in college. I did a lot of that

[00:10:01] I I was a cartoonist for the ucl ebrew in the paper for four years I was I did a cartoon a day for four years You're like Scott Adams or dillburn Exactly, I mean I I love me. I mean I couldn't get away with the stuff

[00:10:14] I did now because it's so woke but but it was a good time to being called from 66 through 70 70 71 and while you get to work out of paper, so then you get to try other things

[00:10:25] So I was the columnist and I did some journalism. I'm a and I ended up being an editor So I was writing and then I won a gold one award for for an um, uh, thankfully

[00:10:36] Unpublished novel and that's like usually a stepping stone to film business doesn't appeal to me But I got an agent I was 21. So I thought I was hot stuff Well, you know 14 years later 13 years years later But of course you you go through that exactly that you go

[00:10:50] I'm spending thousands of hours on this feudal thing. Maybe I'm delusional And and I quit and I kept coming back and I would quit and kept coming back so People say who is your mentor? I said nobody ever mentored me. I've mentored other people

[00:11:06] It was just a guy alone in the effing garage Typing away on a typewriter This is prior to days of computers. This isn't you know in the 80s early 80s and 70s and 60s and

[00:11:20] And finally I broke in and that's why even though they pay me three bucks an hour for for when the power breaks I said, I'm no longer a delusional Schizophrenic. I am a writer. I am the real deal now. I am a novelist if nothing else happens

[00:11:35] I've made that Ah, yeah, it's not it's I just love doing it and I'm driven to do it But I'm also able to you know to take a break I don't I'm not crazy about it. I have measured approach to it

[00:11:48] Were your initial attempts at novels were they all in the Thriller suspense space or did you did you try other genres or literary or what? What's I put literary in quotes Anybody who's not watching because I find your books to be quite literary actually Thank you

[00:12:05] And I think the distinction of genres is a false distinction, but of course it is You know, did you Attempt other types of novels while you were in those years? Well when I was in college. I wrote humor

[00:12:16] I wrote satire. I so I tried the humorous novels coming of age novels suspense novels a little bit of this a little bit of that Of I didn't I wasn't very good at plotting I was always really good at turning phrases

[00:12:28] But not good at plotting and I didn't have the discipline Plus I was too cowardly to write about myself at all to write about my own experience After I became a psychologist. I had some life experience I was in my 30s rather than in my 20s

[00:12:42] And I was able to parlay some of that because I had something interesting and nothing to say basically And I agree with you about genres. That's that's a mutation of the post world war two era

[00:12:54] Prior to that I'm thinking about the guys before that you think, you know, Fitzgerald didn't have a plot You know Well, even and even like Nathaniel west wasn't always necessarily considered like a literary novelist Yeah, he's like a pulp guy, you know

[00:13:08] Yeah, he's a pulp guy and then you had guys like john doce passos Yeah, who was heavily plotted but was considered a literary guy because he would just simply hang out with Hemingway a lot

[00:13:17] You know dashel hammett. I'm not such a fan. He he he was part of that gang I you know, I I don't think his books are that great. I think he's a lightweight compared to ross mcdonald or some of the others

[00:13:29] It's to some extent that was a figment of Knowing the right people. I mean Hemingway had a plot People plotted it's only in the post war era. I think there was this enemy that was this angst

[00:13:41] That's when abstract expression is all this stuff came into being people were You know, kind of like what's what's happening now? There's an attempt to deny reality and impose narrative

[00:13:52] Narrative is what we write. It's not what they call it and and so the so we get these books people would always ask me They would ask me the same same thing g or good writer. Are you going to write a literary novel?

[00:14:03] And I would say so you want me to write the same book without a plot It's funny because I actually started off, you know making notes of what I considered literary sentences

[00:14:13] Meaning the analogies were or the things you were saying and describing were and you were to me that what that means Is that they were unique they were told in a unique way that maybe I hadn't seen before like it wasn't in a cliche way

[00:14:24] Like but I felt I felt like I wonder what role that uniqueness played in making these bestsellers Like you mentioned you weren't good at plot. Obviously, you're excellent at plot now Maybe it's the things that you start off bad at that you recognize you're bad

[00:14:37] And you so you make an extra effort to improve But the architecture is quite literary and then with a plot Well, you were extremely insightful because that's exactly what happened. I finally figured out I said, you know I have been doing that

[00:14:52] Academic writing medical writing and journals where you have to be really structured in those days. Nobody played you right? At least I didn't you have you know how to have your sources It was a very structured approach and I think that helped me a little bit

[00:15:04] I said, you know, I have to apply some of the same discipline I have to really learn to plot so I overcompensated and when the bow breaks is so heavily plotted I was then required to do it in subsequent novels people expected it of me the irony is

[00:15:20] Nobody remembers plots. They remember characters But there's really yeah, nobody remembers plots. I mean I but They're important. It's like structuring a house you you have to have framing before you decorate it So but I I agree with mammoth. I agree with that

[00:15:38] This whole thing of characters are separate from story is nonsense. It's all about storage characters come out in the process of story And so it's so you need the story first then you characterize you catch us have people floating around in the miasma

[00:15:54] I think was pg woodhouse said the kind of book where people sit around talking for 200 pages And then the adolescent doesn't kill himself, you know It's can't relate to that

[00:16:04] I would say there there is one genre that I call the the mfa genre where you could tell basically Someone got an mfa and then wrote a novel about having an affair with their professor

[00:16:14] Right and and and then it just sort of ends with with nothing like there's no plot and that I feel Is a very unique genre only to use by mfa people We went as funny you should say it because one of my editors was a very

[00:16:29] Um, he he was a very erudite guy and he said john I can always tell which mfa program they came out of yeah, yes, that's interesting Yeah, I mean there's a sameness to it and it's pretentious and it's self-indulgent

[00:16:43] So I spent a lot of time plotting even though nobody will remember the plots But but I do like to play with language on the other hand I have to make sure I don't overdo it because if you love playing with language

[00:16:56] I don't believe less is more. I'm not a minimalist But I don't think you can just go to extreme and keep Iperbalizing so there's a there's a discipline that is required But basically I just I try to read and see if I like it

[00:17:09] I'm a you know, I'm a tough critic of writing in general if I like it That I'm hoping someone else will like it Well, it's interesting on the one hand There's the importance of story because people go in there expecting a certain framework where

[00:17:26] You know, there's a murder. There's uh You suspect someone for a long time then you realize he didn't do it then you suspect somebody else and then boom There's like amazing gymnastics to to get this twist and in the end, but you're right like

[00:17:42] I mean, I just saw a movie last night It man it was like, you know spelled ip man. It's like a karate movie or a kung fu movie I cannot at right now 24 hours later. I cannot remember the plot at all, but I love the character Exactly exactly

[00:17:57] So it's like you need to give the the excuse to buy But then the characters I guess give the excuse to really love and enjoy the author Well, think of it in terms of building a house you have to frame it first

[00:18:10] Then you start decorating to me the writing is but There's no house if you just have furniture sitting without walls You need those walls within which to furnish and that's how I see it and us otherwise it just floats around and um, I

[00:18:25] It's just it's a crazy business and some people are gonna love what I do Some people are gonna hate what I do. There's nothing I can do to control it

[00:18:33] I write the way I write I try to write as well as possible. I rewrite and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite Until I'm happy with it and I'm you know, I I'm not self critical to the point where I put myself down

[00:18:45] But there are days when I walk away from the computer. I go That was that was crap But you have confidence in your ability to rewrite because I've done it for so long Right, like, you know, if you write to have a bad day, okay

[00:18:58] At least you maybe moved a little further in the plot. Well, what happens when you get lost in the plot or I never get lost I never outlined it all out beforehand. I mean, I mean that's a classic question for mystery writers because yeah, I guess you have

[00:19:11] I would say Brad Thor he's the one thriller writer I've spoken to where again, it's a page turner but He he doesn't necessarily have the twist like right in the beginning You know who the villains are usually like oh somebody

[00:19:25] Accidentally is parachuted into Russian territory and so you know who the bad guys are but So I forget it whether he plots it out or not, but for your style I feel like you got to know where the critical twists are going to be as you start

[00:19:41] Well, it's very interesting of my my friend John camp who writes as John Samford He writes books where he's he's a wonderful writer and he's a great guy And he writes books where you know who who the bad guy is and despite the fact they're really suspenseful

[00:19:56] There's no right or wrong way to do it I just choose To have a mystery to me any good fiction is is mystery fiction because you want to turn the page Right, you have to appeal it forward. You have to be at least curious

[00:20:09] We just use crime as as the catalyst gets gets gets people going in terms of outlining I just found that's one of the things that I started to do when I felt I was really deficient and plodding

[00:20:21] So I said, okay, I'll do what I do for a scientific article. I'll sit and I'll think about I'll outline it I'll be organized. I'll look at the data And uh, it worked for me and I know my wife outlines my son Alex

[00:20:31] But Robert B Parker of blessed memory he claimed he didn't outline elmore lennard. I don't believe outline So maybe I'm just not smart enough But I the other thing about the outline is I'll do this outline and I'm in the middle now of outlining a new book

[00:20:47] And then I'll put it aside and rarely look at it. Then I'll finish the book and there's a whole different book So so the out so it's the outline helps give you confidence, I think and I think that's really interesting

[00:21:00] Yeah, you don't have to stick to it. You just it's it's maybe like a guiding post particularly in the beginning but if something Seems like a better twist for you while you're writing then you just go in that direction

[00:21:11] Because it seems to me if you if you know everything that's going to happen Yeah, as the as the writer maybe it's harder to fool the reader because You know so much about what's going to happen. You don't really know what's going to fool them or not

[00:21:25] Well, you know what happened this is going to sound really hokey But it's really true the characters become real people who live in your head and they start talking to you And they say uh, you got me wrong and and it's just it it just changes

[00:21:38] A person I think is going to be a good person because not such a good person and vice versa Show a human side to this guy and things change, but I think at least in my experience my personally the

[00:21:51] The outlet has done two things. It gives me confidence. So when I sit down I at least Deludedly think I know what I'm doing And I never have experienced writer's block. I mean, I never get lost

[00:22:04] There's always the muddy middle but but in general I I never have a day where I can't write The whole thing about writer's black once again, I'll talk about robert parker because he was he was a I don't know

[00:22:14] Where he ever met him? He was you know, he passed away a few years ago, but he was a crusty guy My favorite three quotes are robert four I met him in chicago at this hoity-toity writers conference and mr. Parker what inspires you to write?

[00:22:27] He goes I have a contract so I thought that was great and when he met me. We were talking said You were too smart to come from la Which I thought was really the other thing he told me he says john

[00:22:39] You're a professor. I was a professor being a professor is bullshit. You know, so I he was just great Why is worse? Yeah 100% true and then when he talks about writer's block

[00:22:49] He said when you call a plumber does they see I can't come because I have plumber's block So, you know, he just it's a job and uh, I'm not saying anyone who has writer's block is not a good writer I just have not experienced it ever not once

[00:23:21] I'm fascinated though. I think suspense slash thriller Is very hard because not only do you have to plot in in this like people expect extra suspense And they expect to be fooled So given that they already go into this thinking it's like a puzzle to some extent

[00:23:38] Yeah, like, you know, you go into a novel. Let's say Any of your novels or you know, I could be talking about this one or I could you talk about any You kind of lead us to believe there's some really annoying guy Who's a bad guy?

[00:23:51] But we also sort of know that because it's the middle of the book only I and I'm being kind of led to believe It's probably not true. And so It's very well put How do you get around that? How do you Know that you're got the right twist

[00:24:07] I don't know. I just Once it feels right to me. It's it's happening, right? I I don't I to me I always would tell students who would ask about writing I would say introspection is the worst enemy of creativity

[00:24:21] Don't study your naval. You just it's like a job I talked to Stephen King about this and any of us have been doing this for decades Have the same approach. It's a job. You don't even say career. It's a job. It's a great job

[00:24:33] We sit down. We take it seriously I don't write in my bathtub in in my bathrobe. I get dressed. I shave I go to the office like I used to when I was a doctor and I do my job

[00:24:46] And and I just don't think about it. I just try to do it as well as possible And um, I I just that's why I think those mfa things where you give other people your stuff and

[00:24:56] They it's just a circle jerk. I mean, you know, it's just not something that appeals to me And I'm glad that I didn't come out of the English department. I came out of a different background and um

[00:25:08] I just don't even think about it if it feels right to me if the story is making sense If it's not all change it So as I say it takes a year for me to write a novel

[00:25:18] Half of that time is spent planning and plotting and outline half is spent writing So I put just as much time into it once I've done that once I prepped it

[00:25:27] Everything needs to be you know that you want to invest and stop you got to do research. You don't do it blind I paint it. I paint a picture. I have to prime it and I'll use different color primers. I have to layer it

[00:25:39] Uh, you know, you play music you have to limber up Everything requires prepping. What do you mean by layer layer up? When I paint I people say oh, is it relaxing? I'll say not the way I do it because I copy old masters. I'm super realistic

[00:25:55] So I use layers and layers of paint a lot of painters know that The underlayer will affect the next layer So if you put down color a and put down color b Color b looks different than if it wasn't sitting on top of color a

[00:26:11] So there's a lot of glazing. There's a lot of that kind of painting requires a lot of precision A lot of layers and same thing with writing you have to just Prepare it properly

[00:26:24] Uh, some people don't I mean Parker did some great books Elmer Leonard was brilliant either an outline But he did a different type of book

[00:26:31] You know, uh, the kind of book you're 100 right the kind of book that I write because I've been over compensating for being a lousy plotter For 40 years already because it's expected of me

[00:26:41] Which is the other thing when when my when my son started writing my wife told him fade face of jesse You better write what you want to write because you'll be required to do that the rest of your life

[00:26:51] Okay, yeah, right because if you suddenly wrote, um, you know Uh flowers of algin on or whatever right? Like people are you like, uh, this is like a pet project of his it's not it's not alex Delaware

[00:27:04] I'm not I don't want to read this, you know, I've done some non Delaware suspense novels So which I think are as least as good as the Delaware's And they sell 90 of the Delaware's no matter how good I I did a book called the murderer's daughter

[00:27:17] My lover sure was really excited about it great female character This is gonna outsell dollars now same thing 80 90 of Delaware And so people want that from me doesn't bother me. I'm not like Raymond Chandler sitting around getting drunk and bitching about it

[00:27:33] I am to like writing Delaware's if I didn't I'd stop But I give another good example my son and I wrote a couple of a golem books golem apolly with the golem of eras

[00:27:42] We think they're brilliant books. Stevie king freaked out over them. He said this is took my breath away We saw we did something great nobody wanted to read him nobody bought him You know, it's just that's the way it is people expect a certain thing

[00:27:55] but it's interesting because you You're the first part of your life you were a great your career was you were a great child psychologist I like to think so And you know your alex delaware series Is about this amazing child psychologist who also loves

[00:28:14] You know solving crimes. Yeah most psychologists. They will say you psychologist There is an element of There's a person in front of me and there's a period of discovery

[00:28:24] That you have to kind of peel away to find out who this person really is and and what's driving them And so when you have a character based on that It's like That there's a little bit of your autobiography in each book

[00:28:36] I feel like you're living inside my head because that's exactly what I used to tell myself. I said I'm doing detective work every time a new patient comes in with some problems I need to figure out what's going on. It's detective work

[00:28:50] So I'm doing detective work and I'm doing it in a certain way But the other thing is that I did have experience with the criminal justice system I've been an expert witness. I've gone to court if you if you see enough patients and you're in enough clinical situations

[00:29:05] Especially like in an inner city hospital You're going to have you're going to see all sorts of crazy stuff and even in private practice and so I had experience With that darker side of life So it didn't come out of nowhere you know, right and I think that

[00:29:26] Is shown so much in these novels in this alex delaware series. So just to set the context alex delaware is a child psychologist And he just lives for helping his partner, you know, mylo solve these crimes

[00:29:40] And like I'll just say like in the ghost work at friends in the beginning He's kind of depressed because he hasn't gotten the call from the guy Right I like he just loves this

[00:29:50] Exactly. He's addicted to it and it's not where he makes money. He doesn't make any money He has a well-paying job doing legal work. He makes a lot of money. He's he's done investments He's a successful guy, but this is what he does

[00:30:03] To keep his brain going and he is addicted to it and it's been an issue with his girlfriend robin but because he puts himself in danger occasionally and He's just drawn to it and I think that uh a protagonist needs to be driven I never was

[00:30:21] Attracted to apathetic heroes anti heroes guys who didn't give a damn I think for a book to have drive to it The protagonist needs to be driven too. What's an example like like let me just ask you like jack richer He's clearly motivated by doing justice

[00:30:39] But at the beginning of each novel it seems like he's apathetic I don't seem as apathetic. I see him as a drifter. I think li's a great writer and created this amazing person with a great assumption of this guy traveling around rural america Doing great stuff

[00:30:58] He just is he's like to me reach her is like A cowboy hero. He's there when you need him He's like a good gun that you ready to shoot when it's necessary But the the other kind of book is like

[00:31:14] The cozy novels you used to have from england where there's a body and everyone stands in the drawing room and talks about I don't like that to me. I've seen dead bodies. Dead bodies are upsetting violence and crime is upsetting and and policemen cops

[00:31:33] They get images in their heads. They can never get rid of those images. I'm I'm very empathic I'm a super empath. I don't want to look at this stuff because I know once the once the images of my head I'll never get it out of there

[00:31:45] So that kind of book Kind of annoys me when people are oh, there's a body. Let's go have a martini That Dorothy Sayers and that which is not too detract

[00:31:56] Hey, they're other audiences. They are the only sisters and I and look at some of them are really good act of the christie most successful mystery writer in the world Created these great puzzles very mathematical very little if any character developing

[00:32:11] Paro was paro in the first book he's paro in the 10th book Of the british writers. I like Ruth Ruth Randall. I mean she was a genius And she also dealt with the dark aspects of the human psyche and Crime is bad crime is bad stuff

[00:32:28] I I don't like an apathetic for example the movies are always showing cops making jokes about it and being light Lighthearted there's a certain amount of gallows humor that occurs to mediate their anxiety But most of the homicide cops that I've met are really

[00:32:43] Really upset by this stuff. They really take it to heart. They're sensitive guys I I find when I talk to homicide cops, I'm tougher guy than they are when it comes to bad guys They're more I don't tell it. It's not taller. They're more

[00:32:57] Soft-hearted even than I am Wonder why that is like good You think they're sensitive human beings to become a homicide cop Really, you have to really care and when they say I want to help people they really mean it It's not like someone who works for a nonprofit

[00:33:14] The guys who who set out to they become obsessed the good ones And so that whole thing of they're sitting around and they're making jokes about it That's a lot of nonsense for the most very serious guys

[00:33:26] I mean and women too when you were a psychologist like you said after Seeing so many like let's say young people through the system eventually you're going to see some horrible stuff

[00:33:35] Whether it's abuse or crime or or kids who can't be helped or kids who are like you've been involved in kids Who are let go who still need institutional treatment? And I mean Was that

[00:33:49] Hard to deal with and in many cases you might not know the end of the story either like someone's in the hospital for a little while Then they're gone and you don't know the end of the story. Oh that happened to me many times

[00:33:59] Um, what happened to me is I I've had stuff thrown at me I'm not really good at planning my life. I'm kind of experiential So I went to grad school to become a psychologist. I got married when I was 22 years old

[00:34:12] I got my phd when I was 24. I looked 18 I grew a mustache because people kept saying doctor. How old are you? And I was I was sitting in my office. I was an intern at Children's Hospital

[00:34:24] Chief psychologist comes he goes john, are you really going to finish your phd this spring? I said, well, you know what it's like if they accept it He says, okay, would you like a job here? Children's Hospitality is kind of like Yale, Harvard

[00:34:36] You know, it's a very one of the best hospitals in the world. I'm going hell. Yeah I'm 24 years old. I'm married. I'm broke. So yeah, you are from me a job here. Awesome. Then he says this is the job

[00:34:47] I thought it's going to be a straight site site job. No, no, no, no, no He says, well, you know, we have these kids with cancer very serious solid tumors And we can't give them enough chemotherapy

[00:34:59] Because the chemotherapy kills their immune system and then they die of new of pneumocystis pneumonia So we have a study from nci or NIH, whatever We use these germ-free modules called laminar air flow units that were developed by nasa to decontaminate astral And we can use them

[00:35:20] But the government is telling the the oncologist who's doing the study you can't put kids in isolation without studying psychological aspects I'm listening to this. I'm 24 years old. I go Okay, and what's my job? Your job is to find out what's going on and to prevent problems

[00:35:39] That was my first job. I had no interest in oncology I had circulated through other parts of the hospital, but I really didn't want to deal with it But it was fascinating and I got paid to think

[00:35:50] So I got to say I got to do research and figure out what was going on And when I met the guy who was doing the research, he looks at me

[00:35:57] Also a young guy, but older than me. He's like 33. He looks at me. He goes, I guess you'll need an office So that was the welcome that I got right because in those days the doctors weren't too psychologically minded Three years later

[00:36:09] He's going around saying most important data to come out on my study or the psychological data because he knew He could not do that study without us. So that was my first job I didn't think it through so then people say, oh you work with kids with cancer

[00:36:23] Isn't that depressing and I said no because I know I'm helping them every day and a lot of them some of them are getting cured That's the purpose. That's the point and and so three years later

[00:36:34] This same guy became the head of oncology and he said to me john Can we do for all of our patients what we did for those kids in that unit? Which is 3000 or 4000 patients and so I said I was 27 years old

[00:36:49] I said, okay, let's try it. So we were the first people to do psychosocial care So it's been thrown at me and never had time to worry about it. It was so busy And I really felt it was very uplifting

[00:37:02] Very rewarding. I would leave work every day knowing I've done something important I always say that about every job And the reason I left the hospital in 1981 wasn't because of the patients It's because I got tired of the bullshit and the bureaucracy

[00:37:17] I just got tired of dealing with it and and not making any money, you know, the salaries are not good And I have kids so I went into private practice and I told my wife and also I wanted to give writing one last shot

[00:37:28] Which I did many times and I said honey Can we tighten our belts because I'm not going to make any money for almost go on to practice And people said said to me 1981 you're giving up a tender position to go until solo practice during a recession

[00:37:44] And I had no knowledge. I said, oh, there's a recession. I didn't live in that one I didn't have money to invest. I didn't know there was a recession

[00:37:51] I went into practice and I figured nothing would happen like Arthur Conan Doyle who had a really bad medical practice He wrote shurallic homes. I said I'll have time to

[00:38:00] At least take a year and give writing one last shot. I mean practice booked up in two and a half weeks Wow So how did you find the time then to write back to the garage at 11 p.m Back to doing what I was doing and and finally

[00:38:15] four years later I got published and but So I just I'm just not a guy who plans things out They say you make your own luck. I guess so if I didn't have a doctorate

[00:38:29] I couldn't be a psychologist if I didn't have a license, you know, but but They offer me jobs. What can I say? Well, yeah, I I think it's true about the you make your own luck

[00:38:38] But you have to you have to eat what you make basically. Yeah. Yeah, so like you offered the job You took it you have an opportunity to write a series of you know Thrillers that have a child psychologist as the main character

[00:38:53] So you took it and that becomes the one of the best selling series of all time You know, I'm always just fascinated again with with thrillers Like there are two areas that seem like really difficult

[00:39:19] To write one is a chasing because they it's hard not to imagine them in a clichéd way Like oh, we're chasing them. They start firing at us. We fire back and something happens

[00:39:31] Like that there needs to be a twist to get them or else it's a cliche And then and then again building in the twist so that Only you know what's happening and the readers don't know what's happening And maybe you don't think about it when you're writing

[00:39:45] But I'm just fascinated like if you have any insight into how you do those two things I try to evolve it in a look in a logical way. So there's not an oh all of a sudden epiphany It's it's pacing

[00:39:58] That's the key is learning how to pace which took me a long time to learn How to pace it so it's I hate to use word book organic or natural So it's sequential rather than all of a sudden. Oh, yeah

[00:40:11] I looked at a red bird and it made sense sensed me That's that's the skill in doing these stories. And that's why I spent as much time planning it is actually doing it And uh, it always seems to come When it always seems to fall into place

[00:40:27] I it's almost a magical experience where you don't know whether you can do it and then you do it What what's an example from like an not necessarily this novel but like an earlier novel

[00:40:36] Where you feel comfortable saying what the twist is or how you thought about the twist like as you were outlining Like how did you think about the twist and and you knew it was a good twist?

[00:40:45] I don't even think think of my books as having twists because I just think it's a more gradual logical similar psychology where you're meeting as you very adroitly said very acutely You getting to meet people and you have to figure them out

[00:41:01] You know if I if a child would come into my office with a symptom that same symptom could be due to many different things so you have to learn about this person And it's it's just it's it's not really a twist

[00:41:15] I don't know how to explain it. I I see it's like as you're getting to know The different characters better as their motivations come out Suddenly you could begin to connect dots dots that were very hazy at first, but now they get

[00:41:29] Darker well, it's not just I like the book that I'm outlining now I know this is a really a wide done it. It's all about motives The whole mystery of this book is why do these things happen once we understand why they happen

[00:41:42] Then we can move on to solving the crimes and that's true of most of my books But especially in this particular book that I'm outlining now And I was working on right before we began talking And I knew I wanted to get there and you know

[00:41:53] I just kept thinking about it and writing it and trying different things till I got somewhere that made sense to me uh It's It's the way it is in real life Detective work they keep accruing data until something makes sense

[00:42:11] Uh sometimes it never happens. You have a cold case So it's just a matter of collecting. It's like anything else collecting the information knowing how to get the information And trying to hone it

[00:42:22] Trying to sculpt it. I don't know like like when I paint I like to refine You know when I paint I'm sure most painters do I start off with

[00:42:31] I frame it out. I'll do a rough out, you know, let's see. It's a bird on a bird on a branch a hummingbird so I sketch it and I write it and I block it in

[00:42:40] And and most painting you start off with dark colors first then you lighten up That's not always but that's And you know, you're using progressively finer brushes You're starting up with broad brushes literally and you're putting it and then you getting into the tail

[00:42:54] And I use brushes with three hairs on them. I'm looking at a hummingbird's eyeball and that kind of thing same thing with a novel You're just zeroing in on a target to some extent But I for me it's all about planning

[00:43:08] You know and how do you like, you know, you have this very successful series revolving around alex delaware the child psychologist and likes to find, you know, solve crimes what's the Is there a pressure of like

[00:43:23] You know having to do a series like, you know, you're you're it's not that you're obligated to write pointing more alex delaware novels, but What's different about You know sticking to a series for as many novels as you have Um as opposed to like writing one-offs

[00:43:39] I like the one-offs I don't do them anymore because I don't want to work that hard anymore. I was doing two three books a year occasionally They were really inspired. I thought so they were some of my best books

[00:43:49] And they just don't sell as well as the other so if i'm going to spend energy Let me do what people want, but Unlike other writers who got like I think conan doil got sick of sure it comes He killed him off from bottom back

[00:44:00] Chandler was always bitching because he was just that kind of a guy I like I like writing delaware novels because I see them as a vehicle for telling a certain type of story

[00:44:10] And my story comes out on my work as a psychologist. It's basically you forget about the past at your own Jeopardy, okay? And and so that's a very psychological approach The pass is going to come back to you can't forget about the pass

[00:44:26] You have to look at the pass to understand the present and hopefully the future So I'm telling that kind of story using him as a vehicle It's it reminds me of the evolution. Let's say of a stand-up comedian like where at first they start start

[00:44:41] Early in their career, let's take luci k as an example for better for us early in their career He was just he was like an absurdist. He was just telling these like crazy jokes and they were great He was funny. He had talent and skill

[00:44:53] But then he really became huge when he started talking about his own failures and his own life and the crazy things that happened to him with his kids and marriage and stuff like that So you it's like you were able to once you put yourself in the fiction

[00:45:07] Exactly, you it it took off. I mean it was taking off before that even right from your first book But then this became a series this alex delaware series Well, he got it got published. I got published because I was finally stopped being a coward

[00:45:21] I would write about everything but being the psychologist There were two reasons first of all I hadn't been a psychologist that that long I mean, I got my doctorate in 74 the book was published 11 years later But I wrote it in 1981

[00:45:35] So you have to accrue a certain amount of of experience even though I won a literary award when I was 21 I had nothing to say It's nothing to say no life experiences where we're girls impressed that you won a literary award when you were 21

[00:45:49] Sure, that's how you think I got married I knew it You know, I mean I mean girls were impressed by playing guitar, you know Whatever works, but it was just Um, I never thought this is going to be a series

[00:46:03] I didn't you never know my wife says it faith faith faith that she goes You never know your first novel. It's your personal So you throw everything in there and then you've established these characters and you have to be consistent

[00:46:15] But I don't feel hemmed in by him. I honestly At this point if I don't want to do it, I wouldn't do it because life is too short I'll be 75 this summer I want I like to enjoy my life, you know, and I just like writing books

[00:46:31] Well, first off for anyone who's listening to this and not watching this you look very young for 75 So I could tell the good the good genes. I can see why your mom lived to 103. Yeah people think I look younger

[00:46:42] I don't know if you look young too by the way. I'm 55 so I'm 20 years 20 years younger 20 years younger I don't know about 103 I mean, she was okay to 96. It wasn't bad. All right. That's a good run

[00:46:58] She had a good life. No, I mean you like to think you have to have a somewhat young approach also to write I I don't want to I'm not writing for gen Xers. I'm not writing about tick talk So yeah, my readership has aged to some extent

[00:47:13] Uh, I I'm just not that young hip new fresh Phenom guy anymore, which I was 1985 But but two questions about that like one is is the phenom concept So like in the late 80s early 90s

[00:47:27] There was the so-called brat pack of fiction with j. McInery, bretty senelis and tamagenowitz And they were young like bready senelis like 21 when he first published Right and And it was just like with entrepreneurship There's this myth that the young ones are more brilliant

[00:47:43] But there's been a lot of research to show that writers actually get better like a historian A mathematician their peak age is 25, but historian According to arthur brooks the peak age is 69 years old for a historian

[00:47:56] Like they should try to live into their 70s because their best work's gonna happen around then And for writers, I think it's the same I mean you can be a flash in a pan or you can be I I was about the same age as j. McInery

[00:48:08] We broke it around the same time But in typical fashion all those guys and I think they're talented They were just part of that new york hipster thing and I'm married And living in a suburb with my wife and kids

[00:48:23] Not living a glamorous life going to work and that's my style and that's phase style too We like to keep a low profile. I'm not interested in going to parties. Never hired a publicist I'm really about itself promoting. I don't want to talk about the new book

[00:48:37] I never like talking about a specific book. I like talking about the process the way we're talking That's much more interesting. I'm a terrible self promoter And but but public publishers now only are interested in self promotion. I don't know

[00:48:52] They always were but but like how did you I guess like you said it was word of mouth on that first book You're published fortunately in some respects. You were below the radar for your publisher

[00:49:01] So they weren't pressuring you and word of mouth got that first bestseller status Yeah, I got as I say I got a lot of attention because shrink writes book And I was like the only guy doing that out there and I was a real shrink

[00:49:14] You know Michael Crichton was an md, but he never practiced medicine. He's a he was great Right, but he never practiced medicine and uh, but I did I practice psych and and so I was doing I had another

[00:49:27] Life and so that was I got a lot of attention I got on today's show and then I got really good reviews Um, and then I won an editor award. So it was like wow, this is cool

[00:49:39] So, but you know it I never took it seriously to the extent that I was willing to give up my day job till Six years later I'm just very conservative by nature and uh

[00:49:53] Whether whether it comes to investing or anything else and as a result we're doing very well. So, you know um It's just personality. I don't I I don't use drugs. I'm not a heavy drinker and awful. I just

[00:50:06] I don't have a lot of vices. I'm a pretty boring guy Who's able to write books? That's just the way it is and all there are other people who are like that I think when you start to live you're not that happened to norman male

[00:50:18] Here's norman male. It was a genius, right when he became running for mayor of new york and becoming a persani He never wrote another novel again Yes, it's true. I mean he did but they weren't known really like he wrote nonfiction fiction stuff

[00:50:33] You know, they weren't really serious novels like naked of the dead. That was a brilliant work. You can't do both You can't do both you know, I I I think it was this his

[00:50:44] You know a lot of people their second book after a great first book is not as good So I think he had trouble with his second book, but his third book which was I'm trying to remember the name of it now um, my memory's bad

[00:50:56] The american dream. I think it was called Uh, yeah an american dream. I loved that book. It's one of my all time. He's brilliant He was brilliant, but later on he became norman mailer instead of being a guy named norman mailer who wrote books very well

[00:51:10] He wanted to be In the post on page six. He wanted to be in the new york times He wanted to be a celebrity you want to hang around with people doesn't appeal to me at all

[00:51:19] Some of those people were my patients. I don't want to hang out with them So you know, so like how so fey your wife. She's also like an impressive novelist and sold tons of copies and has her own series. How much do you guys kind of

[00:51:34] Grew up together in in writing Well, that's the thing we didn't meet through the english department. I have a doctor inside. She has a degree in dentistry She's a dentist. She never practiced. She has a degree in theoretical math. She's a genius. Okay She's like math physics

[00:51:50] Brilliant, you know really really smart was going to go to med school But she said I want to have kids. I'll go to dental school hated it never practice I had no idea that she could write because my

[00:52:03] Concept was I'm I'm the writing artistic guy in the family. You're the math science person kind of a reversal In terms of sex roles So I would go to the office and she decided to write a book

[00:52:16] And I had just gotten I just sold when the bow back was 85 And I was sitting with our third child who was more than 85 on my shoulder She was a baby and fate comes up to me and hands me this chief of paper says read this

[00:52:29] It's lousy. You'll hate it. And I go oh shit This is a tough position to be in, you know, we knew each other for 12 or 13 years We we we've been married for many years. I start reading it. This is like really good

[00:52:44] I said, I can't believe she has any talent You think you know somebody you've been you've been with them for years and you don't know them

[00:52:51] And I'm going honey, this is really good. So then she said I was I was patronizing her so we had a little tip about that I said no, so I called my agent and you need to understand I had no cloud

[00:53:00] My first book hadn't even come out. I just sold it for for very little money I said, I know what it sounds like why for other but he said his eyes rolled back in his head He said, oh, I'll read it. He reads he goes

[00:53:12] She's a writer and he sells it right away Were you jealous because you spent like a decade? No, I was so happy for her because she was miserable because she went to dental school

[00:53:20] She graduated and then she had a kid and she said, okay, wait and jesse a little older I'll go back to work and she decided I'll have another kid

[00:53:28] And so she had a couple little kids and she was like how old was it like 31 32 and she was bored She was that's what she started right. She was really bored and unhappy because here's this brilliant person who

[00:53:40] Who could have done anything really? She's just genius and and I was so happy that but I struggled for 13 years But every every novel has been our bestseller. Okay, every single book from from Faye got published right away

[00:53:56] But it took her many many books like pd james to become a bestseller So she had a different You know different arc so to speak

[00:54:06] Um, but I was it's a bizarre story because I think we're the we're the only married couple to be on the new york times List at the same time now to tell to be honest faye has just retired

[00:54:17] She had enough of it. It doesn't want to do it anymore. She went out on top I said, you don't miss it at all. It was no no So she works out. She picks up the grandkids from school. She cooks a little bit

[00:54:30] She's learning hebrew. She's boning up on her french and she's just enjoying her life, you know Let me ask you like when you're working a really high intense job like you were and dealing with kids with cancer and

[00:54:45] Yeah, all this stuff and then you're writing in the garage at night How did you guys keep it together not necessarily the marriage but or maybe the marriage like how yeah

[00:54:57] What sort of problems existed at that time? Well, the big problems were having kids and not sleeping like everyone else. I mean Uh, I think the problem was that faye was not so happy with her life because you know and I had done everything

[00:55:10] I I was one thing I never was was a sexist. I always said god, you're really smart You need to do something, you know, whatever you want, you know And I supported her whatever she wanted to do I paid her tuition all through dental school, you know

[00:55:23] And um and I was I was kind of sad that she wasn't happier with the way things were going But overall we were happy. We had a good marriage. We're best friends. We've been together for 53 years you know, we love each other and Um

[00:55:37] And we had kids and what I would do is I work at children's hospital Oh in that case in private practice come home when I was in practice My hours were not as long because I I didn't want to work that hard

[00:55:48] I wanted time to relax and I was making a lot more money. So I would come home Be with the kids be with faye hang out She would go to bed and then I'd go out to the garage 11 p.m. 21 a.m. And

[00:56:00] And work on my writing so it didn't intrude Uh, and she was always very encouraging like like when I told her I was quitting the hospital to I actually asked her permission

[00:56:09] I said can I quit the hospital and then could we tighten our belt for you sure honey? Whatever you want She didn't care about money fay doesn't care about stuff. She's from the Midwest She's a very sensible person and and you know, she grew up in california

[00:56:22] But she's she was born in st. Louis and she's from the midwest And I think it's a reason our kids turned out so so well. She's like a really stable

[00:56:31] Unpretentious. She's here. Here's the one who looked like a movie star as a doctor has written best sellers and she's so Unpretentious You know it really is luck I when I saw faye I can't it was a sports night from a jewish college group and I had just

[00:56:51] Finish with the requisite psychotic girlfriend, right? I wasn't interested in other girlfriends and and a bunch of guys are standing around and they go Who's that? I said, what are they looking at the oh, there's a new girl and there was faye. It was gorgeous

[00:57:03] Absolutely gorgeous. I said she's really cute, but she looks 14 years old We think I look young you should see her they said no, she's 18. So okay So I made my move and game on and game on and and that was it from the day we met

[00:57:17] It was like I wouldn't say love at first sight, but certainly love at second sight. We just have a really good report It's not to say we don't have our tiffs. We're gonna have our fights. We don't you know, both are it's a very strong personalities

[00:57:28] There's there's there's no dominance submissive. There's two dominance in this family They have to learn how to compromise Uh, but she's just awesome and and as we've gotten older. I it's a different depth of love

[00:57:42] Because you really start to appreciate that you've been with this person your entire life I mean we I always say to the extent that I grew up I grew up with fey and so I was 21 when I met her and why we were 19 and 22

[00:57:55] We decided we're getting married which is pretty crazy in retrospect And we look 14 and 17 and people try to sell us credit schemes If you see if you see our wedding picture, we look like children And uh, it was just one of those lucky deals

[00:58:09] But in the in the traditional jewish background we came from all of our friends were getting married young I I have another friend his wife was 18 and other was 17 No, it was 20. So we were not the only ones that was our social norm in that community

[00:58:23] And all those people are still married They're still married and they're happily married and have a bunch of kids. It's just what we grew up with That's amazing. So and you guys have two kids who also happen to be writers

[00:58:36] Yeah, and two psychologists and two psychologists the two middle daughters or phc's in psychology So it's interesting and we never you never we were not helicopter parents, you know I sent I paid tuition at four ivy league type schools

[00:58:51] Uh, one kid went to harvard one kid went to pan one who went to barn and one went to claremont mcanna all pretty exclusive

[00:58:57] We never told them where to go. We never made the decision. We didn't care. Frankly, I think it's a lot of it's a lot of Whoey, I think uh recently venison harvard. It's all emperors clothing. Yes, you know, I mean it's a college like anything else and

[00:59:11] And you can get a good education anywhere so Uh, but we didn't we just didn't The kids turned out well because of fey. I'll give you a good example We had an assistant a prior assistant before change. She was british and her prior boss had been bruce springsteen

[00:59:28] Out and which something she was never ever gonna let us forget. She was always talking about bruce. Oh bruce But one thing she said to pay say you're the only boss i've ever had who cooks

[00:59:40] You know fey would get up in the morning and make sure the kids had breakfast And she would drive them to school and I gotta be honest I said honey, it was up to me and hire a driver and it's a delegate. No, no

[00:59:52] It's there for the kids as a result We have a son of three daughters. They love her especially these daughters. They call her every day They love her and and they're just really close to her and they appreciate her and we have a dozen grandkids so so far

[01:00:07] And uh, it's a huge clan of people. So where would you say her writing is better than yours? She's definitely started out with better dialogue. No question. I mean she Uh elmer linner and say we're the best best dialogue people as she has a good ear

[01:00:23] She's very like i'm a painter so i'm very visual. She was very good at like she could do impressions of people She had a really good good ear and I I I did learn

[01:00:34] From her about that. She's also kind of a cut and dry type of person. That's who she there's no bullshit in her book She just tells us tells the story But honestly, we had very little interplay

[01:00:45] We've actually written a few novellas together and that was a pleasant experience But not something we wanted to do again because we're busy Uh, so

[01:00:54] It's not that we talk shop. I mean we just did our own thing. I mean the only privacy we ever had was writing our books We used to say because think about we shared everything else

[01:01:06] But we go to our office. We'd write our books now the the process has changed in the early days We were insecure every friday. We would show each other our week's work So we had a little writers group That was like date night for you

[01:01:19] Yeah, no except sometimes as face said there were some cold nights because you know, you have to really ginger As our confidence grew it stretched out and it got to the point fairly quickly where we just showed each other finished books

[01:01:33] Finished manuscripts and for the most part once on a week make a suggestion here and there I always welcome her suggestion because she's a writer and she's a talented person But for the most part is so, you know mutual admiration club and she's guy. It's great

[01:01:47] I'm saying really so But the most part and people would say do you compete and fate was her ass was it all goes in the same bank again So it's funny how you have a very practical like obviously when you were first writing you did it

[01:02:16] I don't want to say you did it then for the love of it and you don't do it now But you repeated several times that you it's a job also

[01:02:23] But back then it wasn't a job. So you were 100 doing it for the love, right? And I wonder if now that you're In part doing it and getting paid for it like and again you refer to

[01:02:34] Parker's quote about the contract and and so on I wonder if that's why do you think you paint more because that's like a More artistic outlet for you now that you're not paid for

[01:02:43] No, I always paint it always play guitar. Those are two of the things that I've done my whole life I'm just you know, I think I'm actually a better painter than I am a writer. I was kind of a child prodigy

[01:02:53] I could paint upside down. I could paint with both hands Just something that I can do and I can't I can't explain it Um

[01:03:01] But no and just the fact that it's a job doesn't mean I love it even more because I don't have to worry about it now It's it just it became a job in 1990 a full-time job

[01:03:14] And when I say it's a job, it's not to say that it's boring or it's pedestrian It's just that we like those of us who've been doing it for decades I have found we approach it in a professional manner as it's not an inspiration. Yes, we're inspired

[01:03:29] We're creative, but it's not a you know all of a sudden an epiphany comes It's a matter of thinking it through and taking it writing a novels as you know, you write a book. It's a long project

[01:03:40] We were with some we were with a project for several years ago There was like a genius camp for for these kids And and they asked us to be the writers and residents there and and shei being a math person

[01:03:52] She was talking to these kids that most of them were math genius And she said what's the longest problem you ever worked on? She said because you know if you're in math some of these problems can take a long time

[01:04:05] And she was trying to get to get across to them that Some of these projects take a long time And I think that's that's what it is, you know Particularly when you're talking about the scope of a career like yeah, like it took you a decade to get

[01:04:20] Stuff published then it took you you know Probably, you know, I don't know when the when did the first alex delo or will come come out 85 Okay. Oh, oh, okay, right. This is the first one. So uh

[01:04:35] You know you hit your stride with the series, but it's a long process You can't you in something sometimes you feel like giving up on things like let's say someone wants to be a professional athlete

[01:04:45] It's so easy to give up in that first couple of rejections or you know professional anything really particularly if it's more Sensational or artistic because everyone wants those to do that for their life

[01:04:56] I I think being a best-selling novelist it there's lack of reality. It's like being a major league pitcher or being a movie star I never had thought that was in my life and You can't aspire to that. I mean you can but I don't know it's it's just

[01:05:13] It's look people tell me oh well you deserve it because I don't believe in deservedness. Okay. Yeah I think i'm a pretty talented guy and I work hard But I can be just as talented and it didn't happen

[01:05:26] There's plenty of great writers who don't sell a lot of books and plenty of lousy writers who sell a lot of books There are some good writers who sell a lot of books. I would hope I'm in that Anthion, you know, so It's just there's no guarantees

[01:05:41] You understand that to your mature human being who's done a lot of stuff kids say don't understand that I'll get people come come to me before they write a novel and say how do I publicize?

[01:05:51] How do I promote or go write the damn books for it's you know, I mean Right. I think I think people don't understand that because It's pretty easy in most respects on this in this country in particular

[01:06:03] And so you expect everything to be easy and and to some extent it's getting too easy I mean maybe that shows my age a little bit

[01:06:11] But like do you do you think people read as much because let's put it this way reading is harder than watching tiktok videos and so People do not read as much and and men certainly don't most

[01:06:24] To the extent you have readers mostly women except if you're like a tom clancy guy I think it's the internet, you know, the news cycles got from 24 hours to 24 seconds Yeah, and you do and you do have people who are like influencers

[01:06:37] I gave the keynote address at se graduation a few years ago because I was on faculty and I'm I'm an alumnus And I said get a real job. Don't be an influencer and and they all applauded

[01:06:49] But the truth is some of these influencers whatever they are make a ton of money Now it's not gonna last unless they invest properly. They're gonna be like, you know, the rock star who's who's selling real estate so

[01:07:01] It is a tough thing because we aren't we have conditioned people to have no attention space at all Right. So how do you as your writing changed as a result of that like you get to the murder faster?

[01:07:13] No, my writing hasn't changed what I've had to do is adapt to reality if I People will point out the older books. I'm old enough to have to have anachronisms. So, you know, hey phones

[01:07:24] Now you have cell phones you have and you can't deny things like dna and all that So you have to work it in But if but if you're skillful you can work with that, you know

[01:07:33] Um, so you have to change reality to some extent but but the core is the same and and people don't really change I used to be on the the media line for fc. Med school

[01:07:44] Which means when reporters had questions on certain topics they could call call me and it was always a question like How do you think video games are gonna change children? You know, I said they're not gonna change at all

[01:07:55] Their behavior might might change but human nature is human nature. It's the same way I feel about race I clinically I dealt with people from all backgrounds because when you work in a major hospital

[01:08:05] No, we had we had gypsies and they were called gypsies. They were self label as chips. I know a slightly politically correct thing They were gypsies. We had everything I dealt with people from all backgrounds And and I got to learn that ethnicity is a hurdle

[01:08:20] But you can get over it and once you get over that hurdle and you open the communication Everyone's the same people want the same things human beings don't really change nature everything around them changes So kids are kids. I just think we're conditioning people to expecting so quickly

[01:08:39] Yeah, but maybe kids were always that way. I don't know, you know Maybe like one thing you hear from each generation is that it'll it'll never be as good for us as our parents And that never is actually true

[01:08:51] Like people are saying it now people said it when I was younger people probably said it when Generation before was younger like the baby boomers were younger. So there's there's always down periods

[01:09:00] Well, I have to make sure I don't lapse into that grumpy old guy. Oh this generation. You have to understand, you know It's the same process over and over of the young wanting to eat the old and it's it's just You know Things okay

[01:09:16] I'm an optimist and I'm an optimist because I was born that way. It's character alone. Okay I'm just lucky. I'm lucky. I'm an optimist. I find optimism Hesimists think they're realistic

[01:09:28] They're not if you look at pessimists their error rate is higher and when you teach pessimists to act like optimists They're happier So if you look at the world when people start bitching about the world

[01:09:39] See, you really want to live in in the medieval ages. You want to live in the days before Antibiotics I said a working class guy has more creature comforts than the king of england had 200 years ago

[01:09:51] The world has gotten better progressively. Well, and your wife will appreciate this the biggest Cause of suicide in the 1800s was dental pain. Yeah, I'm not surprised exactly I mean People my mother was lucky. She was born prior to penicillin

[01:10:09] So that's why you know, those were tough people because the weak ones were killed off Yeah, and you got strap infection. You died you died So do you want that where the life expects it was 30 40? I mean, I mean people always think that their

[01:10:25] Experience is everything and there's such an inability to look at the way things work. I don't know so like when you're when you sit down to write like who do you read who who's um

[01:10:37] Do you read do you read beforehand to kind of get the juices flowing or I don't read any fiction because I don't want to steal. I don't want to steal

[01:10:44] I don't want to crib the only time I read fiction is if there's a long stretch in between books And I find and it's really interesting because people would send me books books for blurbs

[01:10:54] And they'd always try to send me a book like mine or they thought was like I don't want to read that That's boring. I want to read something different. I read a lot of novel fiction

[01:11:03] I I one thing I bemoan is the is the death of magazines good magazines, but there's still few I read history I read science. I read art Fiction-wise I've been going back and rereading the books of two writers

[01:11:18] Margaret Millar. I don't know if you're familiar with her. She was married to ross. Yes, you never heard of her She was married to ross mcdonough. Okay His real name was kenneth millar and she's she's nasty and dark. I mean, she's really worth reading

[01:11:32] Uh and and ruth rendle both of whom are dark dark writers very very skillful margaret millar wrote In santa barbara and ruth is british and so I've been going back and reading quality fiction

[01:11:46] But for the most part I uh, I read non non fiction. I read a lot of science I'm very curious about the world. So Almost anything I'm gonna read about it comes My way, you know, I guess also non-fiction is more likely to fuel Plots than fiction

[01:12:05] I guess so it's just like I don't read fiction because for two reasons first of all I read to enjoy fiction you have to immerse yourself in it and engage what you call this subjective state of consciousness

[01:12:17] And I I lapse into the the objective state of a conscience where i'm reading it like an energy would i'm going Uh, I would write that differently. Oh that makes no sense So something has to be really good To to get me to be immersed in it

[01:12:32] Uh, and and I find it difficult But I just I just think non fiction is more stimulating I I don't think in terms of getting plus in terms of that I have a I have an idea file

[01:12:45] Created years ago because I'm no sure to remember name works. I'm old and so I have a hundred plot ideas in this file 100 plus plot ideas. I'll never write all of those So I don't need new ideas that they're in there. I've got them in there

[01:12:59] Interestingly, the book I'm writing now is not in that file. It's something totally different than I came up Independently but getting an idea is not a problem. People always say oh, I have an idea. I said then you should write your book

[01:13:12] Yeah, that process of like you said just you know or someone said to me recently again my short-term memory is no good, but uh, that So and so was asked about writer's block and and he said uh Every day at 9 a.m. I don't have writer's blocker

[01:13:31] He knows he has to write that and that's what he does. That's your job exactly No, it's like it's like saying I have an idea The the jump from idea to book is like

[01:13:41] I've got guitar strings on my guitar so now I'm gonna write a song. No, I mean that's your tool You have an idea. That's that's the germ but to get I'll give you a good example

[01:13:51] Warned Warren Zeev under you familiar with with Warren so he was a very good friend of mine And he was fascinated by this whole process of writing a novel. He said I write a song In three minutes and I'm finished. I have nothing to do all day

[01:14:06] You take a whole year So he was so happy when he got the gig to be the bad leader on David Letterman Because he got to put on a suit and have a real job

[01:14:15] Unfortunately passed away shortly after but but we were always talking about the difference between Writing songs and writing novels. It's very very different Yeah, because you have to like you say you have to immerse yourself in those characters

[01:14:28] You have to live with those characters in your head for a year or more forever forever in my case because it's a series So I've lived with these guys forever. I mean, it's so strange

[01:14:36] These imaginary people have been a bigger part of my life than anyone except my family Do you want to do on a tv series? Do I want a tv series? Yeah, like there's you know, there's richer there. There's other if it's done well We've tried, you know

[01:14:52] So many times we've had so many deals fall through Uh, we've had people try to do the books They're not concept based what the Hollywood calls high concept like a michael griten book, you know dinosaurs and amber

[01:15:05] You can't sum my books up. They're even hard to write flap copy for because it's not based as you say upon a twist or anything they're more complex

[01:15:16] So people really find it difficult to to do I've had so many deals so many deals that show through so many bad scripts writing Uh, at this point, I don't pursue it. I don't really care if someone does a great job

[01:15:32] But I'd rather not do it than someone do a crap job and now with all the political critics I don't want someone saying I want my love to be a black artistic woman No You know

[01:15:44] We have to we have to stick to the to the book the way it is And I'm not sure That would play today. We'll see Well, you know again a great series of books The ghost orchid it's just

[01:16:00] I you say you don't you don't have the classic twist and that and that's true But I was just riveted and fooled each time and um, I appreciate it It's it's really great. I can fool you. I can fool anybody

[01:16:12] I don't know. I don't know. I'm I'm pretty Open to just living in that world when I read the book and and letting the writer guide me I'm not I'm not maybe that's why I never really liked Agatha Christie because I'm not really trying to figure it out

[01:16:27] But I just enjoy it And and I really enjoy your stuff. I'm so glad uh, you came on the podcast and it's it's It's thrilling to talk to a thriller writer like like yourself such a great one

[01:16:39] So thank you once again for coming on the show and the book as I mentioned earlier was is the ghost orchid and alex delaware novel And go out and buy it. What's what date does it actually come out? I think february 6th Okay early

[01:16:54] See, I don't even pay I don't even pay attention to that Yeah, you're gonna work outlining the next one Exactly. It's great meeting you and great talking to you and I really appreciate the insights. Yeah, thank you I appreciate your insights. Thank you. Okay. Thanks James. Take care