Mastering the Art of the Interview | Polina Pompliano Returns!

[00:00:07] It is so important in life to learn how to be a good interviewer.

[00:00:13] Not because you're a reporter, not because you're a podcaster, but so many situations

[00:00:18] in life are quasi-interviews like when you're applying for a job or when you are hiring

[00:00:25] somebody or when you meet a girl or guy at a party, you want to find out as much

[00:00:31] about them as quickly as possible and you also want to make sure they have a good

[00:00:36] opinion of you if that's your goal.

[00:00:38] So being a good interviewer and having those skills is critical and I'm so grateful

[00:00:44] that I've had this podcast and have had to study the styles of some of the best

[00:00:49] interviewers out there, but one of the best interviewers out there has recently

[00:00:53] written an article, How to Be a Great Interviewer.

[00:00:57] And I'm talking about Polina Pompiliano who writes the newsletter, the profile.

[00:01:03] She does profiles of so many amazing people.

[00:01:05] I highly recommend Google Polina Pompiliano.

[00:01:08] She's written a book hidden genius, but subscribed to her newsletter, the profile.

[00:01:13] And she just had an edition where she didn't profile someone, but she wrote

[00:01:18] about the 10 best techniques for being a great interviewer and she studies

[00:01:22] the greats distills what their top 10 techniques are.

[00:01:26] I really got a lot of value out of this.

[00:01:28] So asked her to come on the podcast and we just shared stories about how

[00:01:32] to be a good interviewer.

[00:01:33] So let me know if this was valuable to you, but I'm sure it will be.

[00:01:38] Here's Polina and we talk about how to be a great interviewer.

[00:01:46] This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host.

[00:01:51] This is the James Altiger show.

[00:02:03] You're, you know, you've done so many interviews through your newsletter.

[00:02:09] The newsletter, is it actually called the profile?

[00:02:12] It is called the profile, yes.

[00:02:13] Okay.

[00:02:14] It's, and I always forget the title, but it is the one newsletter.

[00:02:18] When I get it, that's like the first newsletter I open.

[00:02:21] I just love your profiles.

[00:02:23] You're profiling everybody from billionaires to artists.

[00:02:27] And it's great because unlike a podcast, you don't feel obligated to

[00:02:31] bring the person in to your house and interview them.

[00:02:35] You just profile anybody you're interested in and you do extra,

[00:02:38] it allows you to do extra research and so on.

[00:02:40] Exactly.

[00:02:41] Yeah.

[00:02:41] And a lot of times I back my way into interviewing them.

[00:02:45] So if I really want to interview someone and I don't think I can yet,

[00:02:50] I put together like a deep dive on them and then I send it to them or their people

[00:02:54] and I'm like, Hey, look, this is my style.

[00:02:56] This is what I do.

[00:02:58] I'd love to interview you and I've gotten a few interviews that way.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:01] And you've, you've now built up such a following that I imagine,

[00:03:08] you know, like book publishers or movie studios should be pitching you,

[00:03:10] Hey, can you profile our author or actor or whatever?

[00:03:15] Yeah. No, I get quite a few.

[00:03:19] You know, only a few of them are actually really, really interesting.

[00:03:23] But I read every email.

[00:03:25] Believe me, we get hundred.

[00:03:28] I would say realistically, we get about between 10 and 20 a day.

[00:03:33] I believe it.

[00:03:33] And sometimes I get angry actually, not really like angry, angry,

[00:03:37] but I want to write back and said, why do you think this person?

[00:03:40] I, you know, I would want it not that like everybody is valuable

[00:03:43] and everybody has an interesting story.

[00:03:45] But like given, you know, for a podcast, you have a certain brand

[00:03:50] or you have a certain type of person, you could tell the person did no research.

[00:03:55] Like, why would I want to interview somebody who, I don't know,

[00:03:58] I don't want to put anybody down.

[00:03:59] But again, it's not like I think I'm so elite, but it's the point

[00:04:04] of view of the podcast.

[00:04:06] It's like they should know who they're pitching.

[00:04:08] I completely agree.

[00:04:10] And, and but you do a lot of interviews, though, like for your,

[00:04:13] for your newsletter and like me, you study the art of the interview,

[00:04:19] which is why I love that article you wrote where you took a break

[00:04:22] from profiling and you did 10 interview techniques

[00:04:26] from the world's best interviewers.

[00:04:28] And it's really like something that I am fat, obsessed by.

[00:04:31] Like you, you've taken a slightly different angle in your research

[00:04:35] and I, you know, everybody has their own style.

[00:04:38] And like I've looked at everybody from like Larry King to Oprah

[00:04:42] to Howard Stern to Joe Rogan, like everybody's got their own style.

[00:04:45] And, and it's very interesting to, to study people's interviewing styles

[00:04:51] because an interviewer has to, you know, unwrap this gift.

[00:04:57] And there's a lot of wrapping around the gift.

[00:04:59] But if you get to the gift itself, you get a beautiful interview.

[00:05:03] It's so true.

[00:05:04] And the reason I mean, I think all the everyone who interviews people

[00:05:08] for a living as you do, I'm sure has done this research for themselves,

[00:05:13] which is what I was doing.

[00:05:14] I was just compiling thoughts for myself to get better.

[00:05:17] And then I was like, maybe I should just like publish this

[00:05:19] because everybody's always trying to be a better conversationalist

[00:05:23] interviewer, you know, even if you have nothing,

[00:05:25] if you don't have a podcast or an interview show,

[00:05:28] you're probably interviewing candidates for a job at your business.

[00:05:31] So it's like something everybody can benefit from.

[00:05:34] It's so true.

[00:05:35] Like I have found that getting good at interviewing and I'm not saying I'm

[00:05:41] great, it's like a non-stop, it's like a lifelong study to you have to master

[00:05:45] it like, like mastering a sport or mastering music, interviewing is,

[00:05:49] is it you're playing an instrument, which is the person you're interviewing.

[00:05:52] And that's a little maybe not quite good, but you have to kind of,

[00:05:58] it's a path to mastery and it's difficult, but it does improve

[00:06:02] other areas of my life.

[00:06:03] Like it helps me relate to people in general and understand people and so on.

[00:06:08] Like when you're interviewing, what's your, what is your goal feeling that

[00:06:15] you want the interviewer, the person you're interviewing to have by

[00:06:18] the end of the interview?

[00:06:20] My goal going into any interview is to make them think.

[00:06:24] I think so, especially, you know, when you interview a lot of CEOs

[00:06:28] and founders and people like that, oftentimes they're very media trained

[00:06:32] and it's really hard to break that veil or that like pierce that smoke screen.

[00:06:37] And my goal is like, I want to have them pause after a question.

[00:06:41] Be like, hold on, I've never actually thought of that or thought about it

[00:06:45] that way.

[00:06:46] And when you make them think it's like, it humanizes them just a little bit.

[00:06:50] The problem is that it takes a while to get through that.

[00:06:55] And when I was writing this, you know, article about the

[00:06:59] interviewing techniques, I was like, how can you do that more quickly?

[00:07:02] Like how can you build intimacy quicker so that you get there faster?

[00:07:07] Right.

[00:07:07] Because let's say you only have a half hour to an hour interview them,

[00:07:11] which really means you only have about five minutes, maybe even less

[00:07:14] to make them feel comfortable with who you are as an interviewer.

[00:07:18] Because a lot of people might be on guard.

[00:07:20] And like you said, a lot of people, particularly like CEOs or other high

[00:07:25] profile people, they have their media message that they, they say, like

[00:07:30] one time I'll give you just to give you an example.

[00:07:32] Like one time I was interviewing Tony Robbins after one of his books came out

[00:07:36] and he had such a message and he's such a like a big,

[00:07:39] monstrous guy.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] And I say this in the best possible way that he just gets on his spiel

[00:07:47] and I had to practically yell at him to interrupt and you discuss the

[00:07:50] art of interruption in your article.

[00:07:52] We'll get to the specific techniques.

[00:07:54] And other times people don't know that when they're saying something

[00:07:57] that might be interesting, they're just kind of listing some things

[00:08:00] that have happened in their life.

[00:08:01] And they're, you know, oh, I got over a cocaine addiction and then I did it.

[00:08:04] Yeah.

[00:08:05] Wait, wait, wait a second.

[00:08:06] How did you get?

[00:08:07] How did you get the addiction?

[00:08:08] You know, you're never going to.

[00:08:10] And people are afraid to interrupt, but you're never going to get this

[00:08:12] chance again to talk to them.

[00:08:14] A hundred percent.

[00:08:16] And it's yeah, it's so good, especially like you said, Tony Robbins

[00:08:20] probably doing like a hundred interviews for his book.

[00:08:23] He's on message.

[00:08:24] Even if you ask him a question, he'll probably just answer

[00:08:27] something kind of related, but not really to get his message across.

[00:08:30] And it's like the interviewers, you are definitely one of them who are actually

[00:08:35] listening.

[00:08:36] They are the ones who like rewind the tape and like, wait, let's focus on

[00:08:40] that a little bit more.

[00:08:41] And I think for me to go back to like if you have 30 minutes, how do

[00:08:46] you get to that intimacy quicker?

[00:08:48] What I do is often if I'm asking them to share something a little

[00:08:53] more vulnerable, I'll start first.

[00:08:56] Howard Stern does this a lot.

[00:08:57] It's like you share something about your own life or your own

[00:09:01] struggle or whatever and that allows them to be like, oh, OK, OK,

[00:09:05] like let me tell you my experience.

[00:09:08] It's a little like I'll give a little you give a little in it.

[00:09:11] I think that helps.

[00:09:12] That is so interesting because that's where your interviews are

[00:09:16] different from a podcast because I can't do that so much.

[00:09:22] You know, I've done 1500 episodes and I can't do that so much in a

[00:09:27] podcast because my listeners, they know my story.

[00:09:31] It'd be very hard to reveal something new to my regular listeners.

[00:09:37] So I see where you're saying with the vulnerability and sometimes I

[00:09:41] try to do that because that's a really important thing to get out of

[00:09:44] them but I have to kind of work around that a little bit sometimes

[00:09:47] maybe before the interview or it's or maybe I have to what I have to do

[00:09:52] is really show them how much I appreciate what they've been through.

[00:09:57] Yes, exactly.

[00:09:58] In the pre-interview like the time before the interview actually starts

[00:10:02] is also very important because yeah, you can you can build that rapport

[00:10:05] before even start.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:07] And so you want them to think, you know, it's interesting.

[00:10:11] I haven't thought of it that way.

[00:10:12] What I want them to say to me afterwards is man, that felt like a

[00:10:16] therapy session.

[00:10:18] Yeah.

[00:10:19] So and then what do you want your reader or listener to think after

[00:10:23] you've done an interview?

[00:10:26] I want them to be like, wow, I actually really learn something

[00:10:31] from this person or there's one piece of practical something that

[00:10:36] I can take away and implement in my life.

[00:10:38] I always try to try to like extract something practical from the

[00:10:42] person because ultimately if you're a listener of a podcast,

[00:10:45] you probably want to get better.

[00:10:47] You probably want to grow.

[00:10:49] So it's like, what is one technique that like maybe I haven't considered

[00:10:53] or maybe I haven't thought about in that way that I can implement in my day?

[00:10:58] And do you ever get nervous or intimidated before you interview someone?

[00:11:03] All the time, every time.

[00:11:06] I still do.

[00:11:07] Really?

[00:11:07] Yeah.

[00:11:08] After 1500?

[00:11:10] I mean, I'll tell you, I first professionally was interviewing people

[00:11:14] and my listeners know this story, but I worked for HBO in the 90s

[00:11:18] and I did this project where I was interviewing people at three in the morning

[00:11:22] in New York City.

[00:11:23] So prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, other homeless, whatever.

[00:11:30] And I would just walk up to people at three in the morning.

[00:11:32] So you have to is a degree of comfort.

[00:11:34] You have to make them feel very quickly and they might have weapons.

[00:11:39] So, so I've done a lot of it.

[00:11:42] I did thousands of those.

[00:11:44] And I still and I was always nervous walking out to somebody, but I'm still

[00:11:47] if someone's coming on, I'm like,

[00:11:51] almost always the 30 seconds before the interview starts, I hope they cancel.

[00:11:57] Like that's how nervous I am.

[00:11:59] I'm feeling a lot too.

[00:12:00] It's so interesting, right?

[00:12:02] Like I don't I mean, I think that being nervous is actually a good sign

[00:12:07] because you prepare the people who are like, ah, whatever.

[00:12:11] And they don't end up preparing and it's not as good of an interview.

[00:12:14] I think like that nervousness is what keeps you really good.

[00:12:18] I think so.

[00:12:19] I think you ever do an interview, though, and you feel like, man,

[00:12:22] I could have done better at that.

[00:12:25] Totally.

[00:12:26] And that feels really bad.

[00:12:27] And then somehow that happened to me recently.

[00:12:30] I was like, oh, no, that that fell short.

[00:12:33] And then it ended up like the listeners really liked it.

[00:12:36] It's just like, how does this happen?

[00:12:38] You know, sometimes your bar of quality

[00:12:41] is different. That's true.

[00:12:43] But like, OK, a couple of years ago I interviewed before he was running for

[00:12:46] president, I interviewed RFK Junior.

[00:12:48] OK. And I read his book.

[00:12:50] I read other.

[00:12:51] But you know, that was a mistake because when you read his book,

[00:12:53] I mean, I'm glad I read his book and I did other research.

[00:12:56] But I didn't really, of course, you only get his side of the story

[00:12:59] on that stuff. I should have.

[00:13:01] I didn't really realize the depth to which, you know, drug problems

[00:13:05] and other factors were formed his his his view of life.

[00:13:10] And I feel like I should have asked more about that,

[00:13:13] but I just wasn't as aware as I should have been.

[00:13:15] It's hard. It's also hard one on one interviews.

[00:13:18] I find really difficult because you don't have the benefit of like going.

[00:13:24] I mean, I guess you could do that, but it just takes a lot of work.

[00:13:28] You could go, for example, if you're writing a profile in a magazine,

[00:13:32] you would go interview his associates, people he's worked with,

[00:13:36] family members, friends, whatever.

[00:13:38] But like this, you truly are only getting this one person side of the story.

[00:13:42] You can't bring in different voices.

[00:13:45] Right. And you're I don't like a podcast or is not a journalist.

[00:13:48] I don't consider you a journalist.

[00:13:50] You're writing something not to say, oh, I got the dirt on this person

[00:13:55] or I found out, you know, this thing they did, you know,

[00:13:59] it's a story, but you're trying to help your readers

[00:14:03] and and give fine lessons and benefits.

[00:14:06] And OK, journalism has its role.

[00:14:09] But I think for me, it's more interesting like your style of profile

[00:14:12] than reading and I got you kind of story.

[00:14:16] So because because then you don't like I find when everybody,

[00:14:20] you know, with a lot of journalism, the journalist has an agenda

[00:14:23] that might maybe is not a friendly agenda and they're trying to get,

[00:14:28] you know, they're trying to get some achievement in their career,

[00:14:31] which might go against the goals of their readers

[00:14:34] and the goal of the person they're interviewing.

[00:14:36] I really I really truly get upset when I see something like that.

[00:14:40] It there is a place for hard hitting, you know, investigative journalism.

[00:14:47] And I will defend that to the death.

[00:14:48] What I don't like is somebody coming in being like, oh, this is a cheap shot.

[00:14:52] I'm just going to get my, you know, sound bite and move on.

[00:14:57] And in the I mean, I don't want to like harp on it.

[00:15:00] But in the article that I wrote in parentheses,

[00:15:04] so it's not like that obvious, but I included a link to what happens

[00:15:11] when a reporter has an agenda.

[00:15:13] He's not well prepared and he's trying to take somebody down

[00:15:18] with Elon Musk.

[00:15:20] This reporter came in, he was just like, well, what do you think about this?

[00:15:22] And he was like, well, he was talking about Twitter

[00:15:25] and after Elon acquired it and all this stuff.

[00:15:28] And Elon was like, well, give me an example of what you're talking about.

[00:15:32] And he was like, well, I don't really use Twitter.

[00:15:34] It's just like, oh, my gosh, it's so bad, but it just shows the lack of preparation.

[00:15:39] And then Elon's able to turn it around on him.

[00:15:41] It's just super embarrassing.

[00:15:43] Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting point, too, by the way,

[00:15:47] is that when you're being interviewed by someone who's doing that,

[00:15:51] I got you style and they're never going to really be fully prepared

[00:15:55] because they have an agenda.

[00:15:56] So you have to fit in their agenda.

[00:15:58] And there are a lot of great techniques for dealing with that also.

[00:16:02] And this works like it just in general in any kind of argument,

[00:16:06] like often they slightly change the subject.

[00:16:12] So instead of saying, like, hey, this is how you bought Twitter,

[00:16:15] they might make it kind of their own opinion about freedom of speech.

[00:16:19] And then I don't know that particular interview you're referring to,

[00:16:21] but Elon Musk might be able to say, hey, did you just change the subject?

[00:16:25] I'm happy to talk about that.

[00:16:26] But let me know, is that is that what we're talking about now?

[00:16:28] Are we still talking about Twitter?

[00:16:30] And so there's ways to kind of like you could label what they're doing.

[00:16:34] And then that sort of throws them off a little bit.

[00:16:37] Yes. Yeah.

[00:16:39] And it just I think that some people get power drunk

[00:16:46] and they don't think that the subject will push back.

[00:16:51] And when they do, they kind of lose their footing

[00:16:53] and just chaos ensues.

[00:16:55] Yeah. And look, the great thing about newsletters and podcasts

[00:17:00] is these are the sorts of things that did not exist 20 years ago.

[00:17:05] You know, the technology wasn't there, the audience wasn't there.

[00:17:07] So you had to be chosen by like The New York Times or a radio,

[00:17:12] a powerful radio station or the Washington Post.

[00:17:15] And so you felt like you had status.

[00:17:17] So it was a different type of feeling that reporters and journalists had then,

[00:17:20] whereas we sort of have created our media.

[00:17:23] And it's like it's like you have your own magazine.

[00:17:26] I have my own radio show, but we we chose ourselves to do that.

[00:17:30] So we could we don't have to do the I got you kind of journalism.

[00:17:33] We could share.

[00:17:34] We could be the bridge between our audience and really intelligent,

[00:17:40] smart, inspirational people.

[00:17:43] And that's a that's a value.

[00:17:45] And I want to just I just want to like add a little nuance here.

[00:17:50] It's not that we're saying never challenge the person.

[00:17:53] That's not at all what this is.

[00:17:54] It's like I got you versus challenging.

[00:17:58] I think actually you do this really well.

[00:18:01] And I remember when I came on your show for my book in the beginning,

[00:18:06] you said something like, OK, but hold on,

[00:18:09] I want to challenge this point of view that you had in the book

[00:18:12] because I think it's contradictory to something else that you said.

[00:18:15] That was so good because it allowed me to explain it in more detail.

[00:18:18] And I knew that you don't just like take people's crap.

[00:18:22] Like you're not like, well, you said it.

[00:18:24] So it must be fact.

[00:18:25] Like, no, let's explore that and I'm going to challenge you.

[00:18:28] But in challenging you, I'm actually giving you an opportunity

[00:18:31] to explain yourself better.

[00:18:34] Yeah, that's a good point because I think I think a there's a couple of things.

[00:18:38] There one is it shows and then I really do want to get to your techniques.

[00:18:41] Yeah, yeah, sorry.

[00:18:42] But but but when when I do something like that,

[00:18:45] a, it's because I'm really curious why or maybe there's something

[00:18:48] I didn't understand like I'm I am trusting you.

[00:18:51] So I'm trying to figure out what didn't I understand and then be like you said,

[00:18:55] it allows to get more information out and to dig a little further.

[00:18:59] But also see there's a slight part where I'm showing you how deeply I read your book.

[00:19:05] It's a way of showing respect to you.

[00:19:06] So then you become more comfortable in the interviewer that were whoever I'm

[00:19:09] interviewing becomes more comfortable.

[00:19:11] So many interviewers don't read their latest books or the things

[00:19:15] they're trying to promote.

[00:19:16] So then what's the point?

[00:19:17] And I always want to make sure not only do I prepare questions,

[00:19:21] but I prepare how am I going to demonstrate that I have studied them

[00:19:25] more than anyone else. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:19:28] It's selfish and it reflects in your questions and it shows that you're

[00:19:32] genuinely curious, which is one of the one of the things a cornerstone

[00:19:37] of an interfering technique.

[00:19:45] Take a quick break.

[00:19:46] If you like this episode, I really, really appreciate it.

[00:19:49] I mean, so much to me.

[00:19:50] Please share it with your friends and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:19:53] Email me at Altature at gmail.com and tell me why you subscribed.

[00:19:58] Thanks.

[00:20:08] Let's see your techniques because you've studied so many of these great

[00:20:12] interviewers.

[00:20:13] So the first thing you say is they know the first question.

[00:20:17] This is so important.

[00:20:19] A great interviewer knows the first question sets the tone for the

[00:20:23] entire interview and you give an example.

[00:20:25] You give two examples of Zuckerberg.

[00:20:27] Tim Ferriss, who's a great podcaster.

[00:20:30] His first question was about fencing and Zuckerberg, who's constantly

[00:20:34] being challenged in the media.

[00:20:35] He just opened up and relaxed and like their friends, which is what

[00:20:39] you want as an interviewer, you know, as a goal, like become

[00:20:42] instant friends.

[00:20:43] Whereas somebody else interviewed Zuckerberg or Kara Swisher, it was

[00:20:46] like, tell me why are you anti privacy or whatever she said?

[00:20:50] Take off your hoodie.

[00:20:51] You're sweating through it.

[00:20:52] Like it's just addressing down of literally and figured.

[00:20:57] So like, I wonder if that was her goal was just to kind of show

[00:21:01] her readers that she could be tough or, uh, or if she really thought

[00:21:06] that would be a good interviewing technique to kind of throw

[00:21:08] them off real quickly.

[00:21:09] Well, I mean, that's kind of her thing.

[00:21:12] But also I think it's two different contexts.

[00:21:15] Tim Ferriss was interviewing him on a podcast.

[00:21:17] So they had two hours.

[00:21:19] She was interviewing, um, Zuck Zuckerberg on stage and maybe

[00:21:23] they had like, I don't know, 30 minutes, 15 minutes.

[00:21:25] So they have to get there faster.

[00:21:27] She has to ask those questions faster.

[00:21:29] The problem is that you risk burning, uh, the subject that

[00:21:34] you're trying to interview.

[00:21:36] Mark Zuckerberg after that interview with Kara Swisher did

[00:21:38] not do an interview with her for eight years in that period

[00:21:42] of time, Facebook became Facebook.

[00:21:44] Um, so I mean, you risk, you risk that.

[00:21:48] But also, you know, when, when you go straight into the

[00:21:52] meet, um, the person's on the defensive, like they're on

[00:21:55] guard.

[00:21:56] They're just, they're not going to be as open.

[00:21:58] Whereas when Tim Ferriss starts like that with fencing, it

[00:22:02] opens up Zuckerberg and naturally as a human being, if

[00:22:06] he brings up, if Tim Ferriss brings up a difficult, uh, subject

[00:22:09] to later in the interview, it's just you've built that

[00:22:12] rapport so it's easier to, um, ask and respond to the

[00:22:16] hard questions.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:18] But I wonder like, let's say you were Kara Swisher in

[00:22:21] that case.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:22] What would you have, let's say you only have 30 minutes.

[00:22:24] I don't know how much time she had.

[00:22:25] Let's say you only had 30 minutes and you wanted to, but

[00:22:28] you, but you being Polina, you wanted to start with an

[00:22:32] interview that is more warm and friendly the way Tim

[00:22:35] Ferriss did.

[00:22:36] Like what would you have done?

[00:22:37] I think, I think just the first question wouldn't have

[00:22:40] been a direct, what are you doing about privacy?

[00:22:43] Maybe I would have started with an anecdote of someone

[00:22:46] using the platform and, uh, you know, like something,

[00:22:51] something adjacent to the privacy question.

[00:22:55] And then I would have gotten there is just the first

[00:22:58] three questions, uh, of her and her colleagues when they

[00:23:02] were interviewing Zuckerberg were about privacy.

[00:23:04] Like maybe let's just open it up with something that

[00:23:08] like is a little sets the tone that this is what

[00:23:12] we're going to talk about, but it's softer and then

[00:23:14] go into the more direct.

[00:23:17] Yeah, I'm trying to think like I think what I would

[00:23:20] have done, like you said, fencing might be too long.

[00:23:24] That's too far.

[00:23:25] Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:27] But I might have said something like, you know, I

[00:23:29] just want to mention in 2006, the first time I turned

[00:23:33] on Facebook, exactly.

[00:23:34] It was the most amazing experience.

[00:23:36] I could finally see what my friends from first

[00:23:39] grade are doing now.

[00:23:40] I would never call them, but I could see how

[00:23:43] their kids soccer game did last night.

[00:23:45] Like here's how I would do it.

[00:23:47] Sorry, sorry.

[00:23:48] That's it.

[00:23:49] I would, for example, I would say, you know, Mark,

[00:23:53] like Facebook is amazing for somebody like me because

[00:23:55] I get to for the first time you guys, you know,

[00:23:58] your company gave me the opportunity to connect

[00:24:00] with family in Bulgaria where previously I had no

[00:24:03] contact with like we couldn't share photos like

[00:24:06] this as easily, whatever.

[00:24:08] Um, and then I would say, by the way, I

[00:24:11] noticed that my grandmother in Bulgaria is posting

[00:24:14] links to things that's definitely misinformation

[00:24:17] and it's kind of propaganda.

[00:24:19] How are you guys handling that with my grandmother?

[00:24:23] Something like that where it's not as a piece of

[00:24:25] right, like does that's really good.

[00:24:27] Because then you could say like this, she

[00:24:29] needs to be worried because the government in

[00:24:30] Bulgaria and then what about and then you

[00:24:32] could always bring that out.

[00:24:33] What about people here in the US?

[00:24:35] Is there this is it different?

[00:24:36] Is the same?

[00:24:37] Like why are people worried about privacy here?

[00:24:40] Exactly.

[00:24:41] Yeah, that would have been good.

[00:24:42] And you know, all of this stuff is important

[00:24:44] too for a job.

[00:24:46] Like let's say you're just going for a job at

[00:24:48] some random bank.

[00:24:50] So it's like sort of generic.

[00:24:52] It's very important to research and figure

[00:24:54] out how to connect.

[00:24:55] Like why, why this bank?

[00:24:57] Why this person?

[00:24:58] Why, why are you sitting there?

[00:25:00] Like what's happening that's beyond just money

[00:25:03] and, you know, doing work that connects

[00:25:06] you to this experience?

[00:25:08] I think it's important to always think of

[00:25:10] these interview questions.

[00:25:11] Exactly.

[00:25:12] I when I was interviewing at Fortune,

[00:25:14] you know, I go into interview for a job,

[00:25:16] but if I hadn't researched the person who

[00:25:18] was interviewing me, I would have never

[00:25:20] known that she got her PhD at the same

[00:25:23] university where I graduated from.

[00:25:25] That's a huge like connective, you know,

[00:25:28] thing that we could talk about.

[00:25:29] But if I hadn't done my research on her,

[00:25:32] I wouldn't have known that and it would

[00:25:33] just been like any generic interview

[00:25:35] she'd done that day.

[00:25:37] I'll tell you like that is incredibly

[00:25:39] valuable.

[00:25:41] That's the most valuable thing that's going

[00:25:42] to come out of this particular podcast

[00:25:43] because tell me just just that type

[00:25:46] of thing when you research the people

[00:25:47] in advance that you're going to talk to

[00:25:50] in a job situation or some professional

[00:25:52] business situation.

[00:25:54] Of course, it's obvious that we do this

[00:25:56] in interviews or we should, but not

[00:25:58] everybody does that for a job interview

[00:25:59] or the first time you meet somebody

[00:26:01] in a professional setting.

[00:26:03] Like I've had companies actually

[00:26:06] acquired from me because I've done

[00:26:08] that level of research.

[00:26:09] Like one time I met the CFO of a company

[00:26:11] that was acquiring my company at the time

[00:26:14] and I learned that he went to Grinnell

[00:26:17] College and, you know, it was

[00:26:20] we were both, you know, I had a

[00:26:22] finance company that I was selling.

[00:26:23] Yeah. You know, Grinnell College,

[00:26:25] of course. And I then there was

[00:26:28] the CFO and the CEO in the room.

[00:26:29] I explained to the CEO, you got to

[00:26:31] really know that Grinnell College

[00:26:32] is an important case study because

[00:26:35] they have the fastest growing

[00:26:36] endowment because a young man by

[00:26:38] the name of Warren Buffett is sitting

[00:26:39] on their board of trustees.

[00:26:41] Wow.

[00:26:41] And so that put and

[00:26:43] gratiated the CFO to me.

[00:26:45] You know, the CEO learned something

[00:26:47] I had that was able to like, you

[00:26:49] know, show everybody.

[00:26:50] I knew what I was doing.

[00:26:52] So it's stuff like that is really valuable.

[00:26:54] It's small, but it's like people.

[00:26:56] I mean, we're human beings.

[00:26:57] We we it makes you more

[00:26:59] likeable to me, you know?

[00:27:01] Yeah. And and again, like no

[00:27:04] matter what an interview, the

[00:27:06] interviewee is nervous.

[00:27:07] Also, they want to be at ease.

[00:27:09] You only have an hour together.

[00:27:10] You want them you want to be able

[00:27:12] to maybe interview them later.

[00:27:13] Like you said, Mark Zuckerberg didn't

[00:27:15] go back to Kara Swisher for eight

[00:27:17] years. I'm surprised he went back at

[00:27:18] all. But I guess that's his job

[00:27:20] to be the face of his company.

[00:27:22] But it's it's important.

[00:27:23] So OK, no, OK, you got to set

[00:27:25] the tone.

[00:27:26] Number two, by the way,

[00:27:29] you mentioned you start

[00:27:30] mentioning Larry King and Larry

[00:27:33] Larry King is an excellent person

[00:27:35] to study because he specifically

[00:27:37] and you mentioned he's conducted

[00:27:39] sixty thousand interviews.

[00:27:40] Crazy. Yeah.

[00:27:41] And he he did not

[00:27:44] research on purpose

[00:27:46] his the people he would interview

[00:27:48] because he wanted it to be fresh.

[00:27:50] Like the listener might not know who

[00:27:52] but he really listened while

[00:27:54] the interview was yes.

[00:27:56] Yes. But what do you think of that

[00:27:57] approach of not doing any research at

[00:27:59] all? I think it works for some

[00:28:01] people. It would not work for me.

[00:28:02] I think I would be too nervous

[00:28:04] that I didn't touch on something

[00:28:05] that I should have touched on.

[00:28:07] And also I would be nervous that

[00:28:09] I'm just asking the same questions

[00:28:10] they've already been asked ten

[00:28:12] billion times.

[00:28:13] But like the experts,

[00:28:15] the masters of their craft,

[00:28:17] you know, they know what they're

[00:28:18] doing and it's just it works for

[00:28:20] some people. But you just got to

[00:28:21] know.

[00:28:22] Yeah, I I don't know.

[00:28:25] I don't think it would work for

[00:28:26] me either.

[00:28:27] But sometimes when you do too much

[00:28:29] research, I have to make sure

[00:28:31] the listener knows what I'm

[00:28:32] talking about. The context, yeah.

[00:28:35] So sometimes it's a it's a fine

[00:28:36] line to navigate.

[00:28:37] But I agree.

[00:28:38] I have to do the research.

[00:28:40] I'm impressed with Larry King.

[00:28:41] But there are some funny stories

[00:28:43] because Larry King does it this

[00:28:44] way. Like he famously

[00:28:46] asked Jerry Seinfeld in an

[00:28:48] interview, you know, how did

[00:28:49] you feel when your show was

[00:28:50] canceled?

[00:28:51] And Jerry Seinfeld was like,

[00:28:53] Larry, do you know who I am?

[00:28:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:57] But like that makes for a great,

[00:28:59] great television.

[00:29:00] Yeah, it's true.

[00:29:02] Your second one is really

[00:29:03] interesting. Your second point

[00:29:04] is a good interviewer explores

[00:29:06] the gap between expectation

[00:29:08] and reality.

[00:29:10] So like, give me an example.

[00:29:12] Yeah. So OK,

[00:29:14] to I learned this from Brandon

[00:29:17] Stanton, who's the photographer

[00:29:18] behind Humans of New York.

[00:29:19] He interviews regular people

[00:29:21] on a daily basis.

[00:29:23] And he often has like 10 or 15

[00:29:25] minutes with them. It's not,

[00:29:26] you know, two hours.

[00:29:27] So he's like, how do you build

[00:29:29] intimacy quickly?

[00:29:30] One of the questions that he

[00:29:31] asks is how did you

[00:29:34] how has your life turned out

[00:29:35] differently than you expected it

[00:29:37] to? And the reason that's such

[00:29:39] a powerful question is because

[00:29:41] it introduces conflict like

[00:29:43] internal turmoil

[00:29:45] in the subject. They're like, oh,

[00:29:47] man, like I really thought my

[00:29:48] life would be this way.

[00:29:50] But then I got this drug

[00:29:51] addiction and now it's this

[00:29:52] way. And you see how like

[00:29:54] it's almost like the

[00:29:56] the life unlived all

[00:29:58] the different possibilities of

[00:29:59] the way your life could have

[00:30:00] turned out and the way it

[00:30:02] actually did.

[00:30:03] So it forces the subject to

[00:30:05] kind of consider two realities

[00:30:07] and build a connection between

[00:30:09] them and be like, this is

[00:30:11] the reason why my life did not

[00:30:13] turn out this way.

[00:30:15] Yeah, that is that is really

[00:30:17] good. You know, I've never

[00:30:18] tried that question.

[00:30:19] I should. That's a really good

[00:30:21] way to get fast intimacy.

[00:30:23] And you mentioned Ira Glass

[00:30:25] also in that he does.

[00:30:27] Yeah, he does the same thing.

[00:30:28] He says, how did you think

[00:30:29] the situation was going to work

[00:30:31] out before it happened?

[00:30:32] And then how did it really work

[00:30:34] out?

[00:30:35] It's something in my book.

[00:30:37] I talk about Aaron Sorkin, who

[00:30:39] wrote The Social Network and a

[00:30:41] bunch of other films.

[00:30:42] But he talks about a

[00:30:44] good story has to

[00:30:46] have conflict and intent.

[00:30:48] And this is what this question

[00:30:49] has. It has conflict and has

[00:30:51] intent. What did you want to

[00:30:52] happen versus what actually

[00:30:54] happened because of all these

[00:30:55] challenges that stood in the

[00:30:56] way?

[00:30:57] And you know, I wonder, like

[00:30:59] so Ira Glass's version of this,

[00:31:01] as you just said, how did you

[00:31:02] think the situation was going to

[00:31:04] work out before it happened?

[00:31:05] And then how did it really work

[00:31:06] out? That's kind of a broader

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:09] That you know, so Brandon

[00:31:11] Stanton's How Does Your Life

[00:31:13] Turned Out differently than you

[00:31:13] expected it to.

[00:31:15] The situation there is your

[00:31:17] life.

[00:31:18] Ira Glass broadens it out.

[00:31:19] It could be any situation,

[00:31:20] not just your life.

[00:31:21] What's another is there any

[00:31:22] other kind of way to bring up

[00:31:24] that kind of conflict real

[00:31:25] quickly like that?

[00:31:27] Well, I was going to say,

[00:31:29] like that.

[00:31:29] So that I call that a gap

[00:31:31] question, like how did this

[00:31:33] work out and in how

[00:31:35] did you think it would work out

[00:31:36] and how did it actually work

[00:31:37] out?

[00:31:38] You could also get a lot out of

[00:31:40] the person and their decision

[00:31:42] making. If you dig a little

[00:31:43] deeper and be like, well,

[00:31:46] how like were you worried?

[00:31:48] What were you doing in that

[00:31:49] gap? Like were you worrying

[00:31:50] about how it was going to

[00:31:51] turn out?

[00:31:52] Were you, you know, you were

[00:31:54] just like, whatever, like who

[00:31:55] cares?

[00:31:56] Like it tells you a lot about

[00:31:58] the person's mentality and how

[00:31:59] they look at problems,

[00:32:01] how they solve problems.

[00:32:03] But I think another

[00:32:06] to answer your question,

[00:32:07] another way to ask that could

[00:32:09] be like, because we're

[00:32:11] assuming that a person

[00:32:13] had a vision of something

[00:32:15] amazing that would have happened

[00:32:16] and it actually did not work

[00:32:18] out. But if you were to ask

[00:32:19] me that question, I would have

[00:32:20] said, I actually thought my life

[00:32:22] would be way worse than

[00:32:23] it turned out.

[00:32:26] Yeah, I was wondering that when

[00:32:27] you were saying this, because a

[00:32:28] lot of this like it's almost

[00:32:30] like when Brandon Stanton is

[00:32:31] interviewing people,

[00:32:33] everybody's mildly depressed

[00:32:34] at things didn't work out the

[00:32:36] way they thought.

[00:32:37] So but but what you just said

[00:32:39] about, OK, so there's this

[00:32:41] gap. But then the follow

[00:32:44] up questions, how did they deal

[00:32:45] with that gap? That's where the

[00:32:46] meat is.

[00:32:47] So it's like you open the

[00:32:49] gap and then that's where

[00:32:50] you're kind of, you know,

[00:32:52] getting, getting the seeds and

[00:32:54] getting the real meat of the

[00:32:55] of the fruit there.

[00:32:56] So in the article, I say

[00:32:58] exploring the gap can give you a

[00:32:59] window into how the subject feels

[00:33:01] about their life.

[00:33:02] Like do they have regrets about

[00:33:04] the past or are they grateful for

[00:33:06] for their present? Are they

[00:33:07] proud of the choices they made

[00:33:08] or do they wish they could have

[00:33:09] a do over?

[00:33:10] So it's like it's introducing

[00:33:12] regret. Another good question

[00:33:14] is like what is something in

[00:33:16] your life that you regret

[00:33:17] happened or that you regret

[00:33:19] a decision that you made

[00:33:20] something like that.

[00:33:21] So let me ask you about that

[00:33:22] because a lot of people say

[00:33:24] it's almost like a cliche for

[00:33:26] people to answer that.

[00:33:27] Oh, I have no regrets because

[00:33:29] I know it pisses me off.

[00:33:30] Yeah. And like people do

[00:33:33] really have regrets.

[00:33:34] Of course they do.

[00:33:35] Yes. If you did this

[00:33:37] differently in 2012,

[00:33:39] maybe your babies

[00:33:41] would be different.

[00:33:42] Right.

[00:33:43] Since then. So I get that.

[00:33:45] Like in a science fiction

[00:33:46] sense, you have no regrets.

[00:33:48] But really like so how do

[00:33:50] you how do you dig deeper

[00:33:51] for that? How do you dig

[00:33:52] deeper for the actual regrets?

[00:33:53] I think you set the stage of

[00:33:55] assuming you would still end up

[00:33:57] in the same place.

[00:33:58] Do you have something that you

[00:34:00] regret that you wish

[00:34:02] you could do over?

[00:34:03] Yeah, that's a good way to do

[00:34:04] it. So you you you

[00:34:07] get rid of their objection.

[00:34:08] Yes. Because the one

[00:34:09] objection is that I don't

[00:34:11] really want anything right now

[00:34:12] to change.

[00:34:14] But yeah, you know.

[00:34:15] So OK, so number three and

[00:34:17] this is this is a good one

[00:34:19] because I always am trying

[00:34:21] to figure out Joe Rogan who

[00:34:22] obviously has the most popular

[00:34:24] podcast on the planet.

[00:34:25] And I really enjoy the way he has

[00:34:27] conversations and they are

[00:34:28] interviews, but they don't seem

[00:34:30] like it.

[00:34:31] So so number three is

[00:34:33] a great interviewer mirrors

[00:34:34] to gather more intel.

[00:34:37] So maybe describe what that is.

[00:34:39] Yeah, I actually think you did

[00:34:41] it earlier.

[00:34:41] So we'll have to listen back.

[00:34:43] But basically

[00:34:45] what Joe Rogan and a lot of

[00:34:46] really, really amazing

[00:34:47] interviews, interviewers do

[00:34:49] is a technique called mirroring.

[00:34:52] Which is I'll say something

[00:34:55] and I'll stop.

[00:34:56] And then the interviewer will

[00:34:59] take the last phrase of my

[00:35:01] last sentence and turn it into

[00:35:03] a question.

[00:35:04] So the example I gave is

[00:35:05] somebody went on Joe Rogan's

[00:35:06] podcast and she set a

[00:35:08] statistic 42 percent of the

[00:35:10] rising generation have had a

[00:35:11] mental health diagnosis.

[00:35:13] And then he said 42 percent

[00:35:15] of kids have a mental health

[00:35:16] diagnosis.

[00:35:17] So he's just repeating back

[00:35:18] her statement is a question

[00:35:20] expecting her to elaborate more.

[00:35:24] Yeah, and I think

[00:35:26] I think that is really valuable

[00:35:27] because.

[00:35:30] A it shows that you know

[00:35:32] that's not about a couple

[00:35:32] different layers.

[00:35:33] One is as you point out

[00:35:35] that forces them to go beyond

[00:35:37] the statistic and add more

[00:35:38] context and information and so

[00:35:40] on and maybe tell a story.

[00:35:41] But it also makes Joe Rogan

[00:35:45] in that specific case

[00:35:47] the voice of the 10 million

[00:35:50] listeners or 50 however you

[00:35:52] know the millions of listeners

[00:35:53] because we're all skeptical of

[00:35:54] it too.

[00:35:55] Or we don't we don't really

[00:35:57] it's mind boggling or how do

[00:35:58] we understand make sense of

[00:35:59] that statistic.

[00:36:00] And so he becomes the voice

[00:36:03] of all of his readers as

[00:36:05] opposed to being Joe Rogan

[00:36:07] interviewing somebody.

[00:36:08] Yeah, and it like you're

[00:36:10] right.

[00:36:11] It it asks a question out of

[00:36:12] genuine curiosity but it also

[00:36:14] introduces skepticism.

[00:36:16] Is that true?

[00:36:17] And they end up looking it up

[00:36:19] on the show to see if it was

[00:36:21] true.

[00:36:22] How to see like a lot of times

[00:36:25] he just gets into these just

[00:36:27] conversations with people

[00:36:28] though like I'll have I'll have

[00:36:29] like I saw one recently like

[00:36:31] Louis C.K. was on his show and

[00:36:35] they were just talking about

[00:36:36] the benefits of cold showers

[00:36:39] you know the Wim Hof cold

[00:36:41] shower you know cold plunges

[00:36:42] method and Joe Rogan was

[00:36:43] saying is going to see case

[00:36:45] like I don't really care.

[00:36:46] And and he I guess he sort of

[00:36:48] trusted Louis C.K. is an

[00:36:49] interesting enough guest that

[00:36:50] they could talk about anything

[00:36:52] and it'll be interesting content

[00:36:54] which is hard to do really for

[00:36:56] many podcasts and interviews.

[00:36:58] Like you can't just let the

[00:37:00] you just can't let the topics

[00:37:01] be about anything but Joe Rogan

[00:37:03] does it really well.

[00:37:05] Yes.

[00:37:06] And but but also like right now

[00:37:08] the way we're talking this is

[00:37:10] how we would be talking even if

[00:37:12] this wasn't being recorded.

[00:37:13] But it's also because this is my

[00:37:15] I think third time on your show.

[00:37:16] So I feel very comfortable with

[00:37:18] you if it was my first time I

[00:37:20] would be like well number three

[00:37:22] says that they explore the gap

[00:37:23] between you know.

[00:37:25] Right.

[00:37:25] So it's like it's like he's

[00:37:26] already Louis C.K. is his friend.

[00:37:28] So it's like almost as if we

[00:37:30] are listening to a conversation

[00:37:32] between friends and that's

[00:37:33] the magic of it.

[00:37:35] I think that's right.

[00:37:36] And I think like my

[00:37:39] favorite podcast I don't know

[00:37:40] and I would probably have to say

[00:37:42] my best podcast have been where

[00:37:44] it's a repeat guest.

[00:37:45] Yes.

[00:37:46] And so I pretty early on I learned

[00:37:48] the value of having repeat guests

[00:37:49] like just continuing the

[00:37:50] conversation we've always been

[00:37:52] having and that is

[00:37:55] a great technique and that's

[00:37:57] what Joe Rogan does.

[00:37:57] He basically just has his friends

[00:37:59] on.

[00:37:59] Yeah.

[00:38:00] And and they just have a fun

[00:38:02] time.

[00:38:03] Multiple times.

[00:38:04] Yeah.

[00:38:04] I mean he's he's the king

[00:38:06] of repeat guests.

[00:38:08] And I guess like that's true for

[00:38:09] Howard Stern as well.

[00:38:11] And because they because people

[00:38:13] are listening for them.

[00:38:14] Like you listen you turn into Joe

[00:38:16] Rogan maybe in part for the guest

[00:38:18] but also largely because

[00:38:20] you know his listeners love him.

[00:38:23] Howard Stern's listeners love him.

[00:38:24] Oprah's listeners love her.

[00:38:26] Almost doesn't matter who they're

[00:38:27] interviewing.

[00:38:28] Yeah.

[00:38:28] And it's also there's something

[00:38:29] about the interviewing your

[00:38:31] friend thing where

[00:38:32] if you have some sort of

[00:38:34] relationship or connection or

[00:38:35] friendship before the interview

[00:38:38] the interviewer it's not

[00:38:40] as abrasive for them to ask a

[00:38:42] hard question.

[00:38:43] You know like if somebody says

[00:38:44] something and they're my friend

[00:38:46] I'd be like come on you know

[00:38:47] that's complete BS.

[00:38:48] Can you tell the actual story.

[00:38:50] You know like that's not as

[00:38:52] versus if I didn't know them

[00:38:53] when I said that.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:55] And I think the goal in an

[00:38:56] interview let's say it's a

[00:38:58] first time guest.

[00:38:59] My goal always is to try to

[00:39:02] get to that point as

[00:39:04] quickly as possible in the

[00:39:05] interview.

[00:39:06] And sometimes it's not easy

[00:39:07] like it's really hard to kind

[00:39:08] of get that level of

[00:39:10] intimacy in a first interview.

[00:39:12] But I try to get that

[00:39:15] but it's difficult.

[00:39:16] Yeah.

[00:39:17] Definitely.

[00:39:33] Now number four here is and

[00:39:35] this is one that is a critical

[00:39:37] one because I used to be

[00:39:39] accused of doing this when I

[00:39:41] first started my podcast

[00:39:42] people would say to me let

[00:39:44] your let your subject talk.

[00:39:47] And so number four you have

[00:39:48] is the great a great interviewer

[00:39:49] masters the art of

[00:39:50] interruption.

[00:39:51] The best interviewers know when

[00:39:53] to interject and you have a

[00:39:54] great example.

[00:39:56] Can you talk about your example.

[00:39:57] Yes.

[00:39:58] So yeah you have to interject

[00:40:00] otherwise I personally really

[00:40:01] hate it when somebody goes on

[00:40:03] and on and on and then there's

[00:40:04] they make so many points in

[00:40:05] that really long monologue but

[00:40:07] the host hasn't stopped them

[00:40:09] to explore it so they just go

[00:40:10] unexamined.

[00:40:12] A really good example is Oprah

[00:40:14] with her Prince Harry and Meghan

[00:40:15] Markle bombshell interview that

[00:40:17] everybody tuned in to watch.

[00:40:19] So Oprah going into this knows

[00:40:22] that this is going to be watched

[00:40:23] by millions of people.

[00:40:24] She's well aware of the pressure.

[00:40:26] She knows that she can't just

[00:40:28] let Meghan and Harry talk and

[00:40:29] say whatever they want.

[00:40:30] She has to interrupt them and

[00:40:32] examine every single thing

[00:40:34] that they say.

[00:40:35] So at one point Meghan

[00:40:37] Markle says something like

[00:40:39] well the palace was

[00:40:41] really concerned with what

[00:40:43] color skin my baby would have

[00:40:45] before he was born and

[00:40:47] Oprah just I don't think

[00:40:49] Meghan meant I think it just

[00:40:51] kind of came out.

[00:40:51] I don't think she planned to say

[00:40:52] this.

[00:40:53] You see her like starting to

[00:40:55] like fidget in her seat.

[00:40:56] She gets super uncomfortable.

[00:40:57] Oprah goes hold.

[00:40:59] She like throws her hands up

[00:41:00] in there says hold on hold on.

[00:41:02] I have to she says hold up

[00:41:04] stop right now.

[00:41:05] And she goes there was a

[00:41:07] conversation with you about how

[00:41:09] dark your baby is going to be.

[00:41:11] So she again mirrors says

[00:41:12] exactly what Meghan Markle said

[00:41:14] in her last communication but

[00:41:15] she does it in this like big

[00:41:16] showy manner.

[00:41:18] Now the spotlight is back on

[00:41:20] Meghan and Megan's like oh

[00:41:21] actually actually no it wasn't a

[00:41:23] conversation with me it was

[00:41:24] with Harry I wasn't there.

[00:41:26] Also I she says she didn't

[00:41:29] hear it directly from the

[00:41:30] source and she declines to

[00:41:32] reveal who said it because

[00:41:33] it may be too damaging.

[00:41:36] If Oprah hadn't stopped her

[00:41:37] people would assume that

[00:41:39] somebody told Meghan to her

[00:41:41] face what color skin will

[00:41:43] your baby like it's crazy.

[00:41:44] So it's in that way is an

[00:41:47] interviewer you're almost like

[00:41:48] a you're fact checking on the

[00:41:51] fly.

[00:41:52] And that's what Oprah did here

[00:41:53] was really really well done.

[00:41:54] And also I guess

[00:41:56] Meghan if Oprah hadn't done

[00:41:58] that maybe Meghan would have

[00:42:00] been obsessing in her mind

[00:42:02] for the rest of the interview

[00:42:03] like oh my gosh.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:05] What did I say do I have to

[00:42:06] clarify this over gives her

[00:42:08] a chance to kind of like

[00:42:09] soften it.

[00:42:10] Yeah and and and that builds

[00:42:13] a rapport a relationship.

[00:42:14] And you give another example

[00:42:15] with Letterman and Kim Kardashian

[00:42:18] about her political views.

[00:42:20] And so good.

[00:42:21] Yeah like you know that's a

[00:42:24] bigger example but and you

[00:42:26] mentioned that Letterman

[00:42:27] Letterman is an interesting

[00:42:28] interviewer because he's so

[00:42:30] quirky.

[00:42:31] I'm not even quite sure that

[00:42:32] he is you know it's if it's

[00:42:37] a style you want to aspire

[00:42:38] to because his interviews are

[00:42:39] very quick and a lot of it

[00:42:40] is surface even in the is

[00:42:42] not so much in his Netflix

[00:42:43] show but or his older Netflix

[00:42:45] show but in his main late

[00:42:47] night show that he did for so

[00:42:48] many years.

[00:42:49] You know it's he's really

[00:42:52] just trying to get laughs

[00:42:53] from the audience and maybe a

[00:42:55] tiny spark in the interviewer

[00:42:57] in the interview.

[00:42:57] So it's not it's not that

[00:43:00] intense but he does he does

[00:43:03] I would say more than

[00:43:04] interruption he does like

[00:43:05] what I would call like a

[00:43:06] pattern disrupt.

[00:43:07] It's like he'll do something

[00:43:08] weird.

[00:43:09] Yes yes.

[00:43:10] And David Letterman for me is

[00:43:11] one of the weirdest like I

[00:43:13] have a really hard time

[00:43:14] watching his interviews because

[00:43:16] I'm like he he interrupts I

[00:43:18] think too much but it's part

[00:43:20] of his thing and then he'll

[00:43:22] say something about himself

[00:43:23] and like David I don't want to

[00:43:25] know this about you.

[00:43:25] I want to hear about Kim

[00:43:26] Kardashian.

[00:43:28] But that's part of his style

[00:43:30] and again it's very hard to

[00:43:32] imitate because it's him.

[00:43:33] It's very much him.

[00:43:34] And in this example for the

[00:43:36] people listening who haven't

[00:43:37] read the article he basically

[00:43:38] sits down with Kim Kardashian

[00:43:40] he said he wants to ask her

[00:43:41] about her political loyalties

[00:43:44] because she's previously endorsed

[00:43:46] Hillary Clinton but then she

[00:43:47] worked with Donald Trump to get

[00:43:49] this woman out of prison.

[00:43:51] So Letterman goes do you feel

[00:43:53] like what's being done on behalf

[00:43:54] of sentencing reform now via

[00:43:55] this current administration and

[00:43:57] anyway allows the balance of

[00:43:58] democracy back in a corridor

[00:44:00] of viability and Kim

[00:44:03] Kardashian is like I have no

[00:44:04] idea what you just said.

[00:44:06] He goes I'll try again.

[00:44:07] I'm grateful for what you're

[00:44:09] doing but it doesn't make me

[00:44:10] feel better about the current

[00:44:11] administration.

[00:44:12] She and she starts.

[00:44:14] She starts answering I

[00:44:16] understand and he interrupts

[00:44:18] her very abruptly and goes let

[00:44:19] me ask you who you're voting

[00:44:20] for.

[00:44:21] And so like I think part of

[00:44:23] his technique and I don't

[00:44:24] even know if he does this

[00:44:25] consciously.

[00:44:26] He starts out in this very

[00:44:27] like confusing place.

[00:44:30] He confuses his interviewee

[00:44:33] by the time they figure out

[00:44:34] what's going on he just

[00:44:35] interrupts with a very direct

[00:44:36] question and in this way as

[00:44:38] the interviewee you want to

[00:44:39] answer because you now

[00:44:41] understand the question.

[00:44:43] You know and I wonder I don't

[00:44:44] know if he does that

[00:44:45] consciously because I think

[00:44:46] he's a very like smart

[00:44:48] intellectual guy so he

[00:44:50] might have been wondering.

[00:44:52] Oh corridors of democracy.

[00:44:54] Right.

[00:44:54] Like like he might be

[00:44:56] thinking like oh she's since

[00:44:57] she like Hillary Clinton

[00:45:00] what is she doing with

[00:45:01] Trump.

[00:45:02] So he's thinking in this

[00:45:02] very nuanced political way

[00:45:05] maybe he realizes in the

[00:45:06] interview that he really

[00:45:08] just wants to know who

[00:45:08] she's voting for.

[00:45:10] Yes that could very much be

[00:45:12] it.

[00:45:12] And also he realizes he's

[00:45:15] I don't want to say he's

[00:45:15] speaking above her head.

[00:45:16] I'm sure she's very

[00:45:18] intelligent also but yeah

[00:45:20] maybe he realized he wasn't

[00:45:21] being so clear and so then

[00:45:23] he's smart enough to get

[00:45:24] as direct as possible.

[00:45:26] Yes.

[00:45:26] But by the way why can't

[00:45:28] she just because she likes

[00:45:30] one candidate.

[00:45:30] I know why can't she do

[00:45:32] something effective for

[00:45:32] somebody who's president of

[00:45:34] the United States regardless

[00:45:35] of who they are.

[00:45:36] That's how polarized we've

[00:45:37] become.

[00:45:38] We cannot have this dichotomy

[00:45:40] of Kim Kardashian and James.

[00:45:43] Right like like people on

[00:45:44] both sides people are willing

[00:45:46] to break the law to get their

[00:45:47] candidate in.

[00:45:49] And it's just like just

[00:45:51] ridiculous how polarizing

[00:45:52] people have been as opposed to

[00:45:53] wanting to just be just do

[00:45:55] good in society.

[00:45:57] Exactly I agree.

[00:45:59] Let's see number five they

[00:46:02] make assumptions on purpose

[00:46:05] and I think that's a little

[00:46:06] bit of the gotcha thing as

[00:46:08] well but but you use the

[00:46:10] Oprah example again.

[00:46:12] Yeah and it doesn't have to be

[00:46:13] done in a gotcha way it could

[00:46:14] be like here's how I

[00:46:15] understand it and then you

[00:46:16] let the person agree or

[00:46:18] disagree with you.

[00:46:20] I think in this one I wanted

[00:46:22] to talk about how the

[00:46:23] interviewer is a representative

[00:46:25] of their reader or listener

[00:46:26] or whatever.

[00:46:27] So Oprah knew that and she

[00:46:29] kind of addressed the

[00:46:30] elephant in the room which was

[00:46:32] she knew that the person

[00:46:34] watching at home is watching

[00:46:35] this and Harry is kind of

[00:46:38] painting himself as the victim

[00:46:40] of the system.

[00:46:41] And she's like oh man oh man I

[00:46:42] know what people are thinking

[00:46:44] I have to ask it.

[00:46:45] And so she says and it's not

[00:46:47] done in a very confrontational

[00:46:48] way just kind of like

[00:46:50] like in a funny way.

[00:46:52] She says please explain how

[00:46:54] you print Harry raised in

[00:46:56] a palace in a life of

[00:46:57] privilege literally a

[00:46:59] prince how you were trapped.

[00:47:02] And so it's like she

[00:47:03] makes it you know he she

[00:47:05] addresses that and then he

[00:47:08] yeah and then he responds

[00:47:10] with oh well it's a system of

[00:47:12] wealth and all the stuff that

[00:47:13] you're trapped in but she

[00:47:14] doesn't buy his response.

[00:47:16] So then she makes the

[00:47:18] assumption she says so the

[00:47:19] impression of the world

[00:47:21] maybe it's a false impression

[00:47:22] is that all these years

[00:47:23] before Megan you were living

[00:47:25] your life as a royal Prince

[00:47:26] Harry the beloved Prince Harry

[00:47:28] and that you were enjoying

[00:47:29] that life.

[00:47:29] We didn't get the impression

[00:47:31] that you were feeling trapped

[00:47:32] in that life.

[00:47:33] So she says like here's

[00:47:34] what we assumed is that true

[00:47:36] or not.

[00:47:36] And it forces him to take a stance.

[00:47:39] Yeah.

[00:47:39] And it's interesting too because

[00:47:41] as opposed to the Joe Rogan

[00:47:42] example where he he really

[00:47:44] becomes the voice of the

[00:47:45] listener like oh we're all

[00:47:48] of us 10 million people are

[00:47:49] skeptical or we want to

[00:47:51] know more about this thing.

[00:47:52] She's almost like

[00:47:55] a translator like it's as

[00:47:57] if there's a gap between

[00:47:59] what her she understands

[00:48:01] there's a gap between what

[00:48:02] her audience thinks and

[00:48:04] what Harry is saying.

[00:48:05] And she's trying to bridge

[00:48:06] that gap as opposed to

[00:48:08] as opposed to just being the

[00:48:10] voice of the listener

[00:48:12] she's trying to translate

[00:48:14] exactly what the listener

[00:48:15] might be thinking and what

[00:48:16] Harry might be thinking.

[00:48:17] So there's a there's an

[00:48:18] intersection.

[00:48:19] Yeah. She keeps giving them

[00:48:20] the opportunity to explain

[00:48:22] themselves.

[00:48:23] And then I watched an

[00:48:23] interview with her about her

[00:48:25] interview and she said that's

[00:48:26] all I was trying to do.

[00:48:27] I was just trying to let

[00:48:29] them explain their decision

[00:48:32] and you know I think she did a

[00:48:34] great job.

[00:48:35] Yeah. And so Howard Stern

[00:48:37] how does he you mentioned

[00:48:38] Howard Stern to

[00:48:40] I have my own thoughts on his

[00:48:41] style but can you talk about

[00:48:43] the example you give for

[00:48:44] Howard Stern.

[00:48:45] Yeah. So I will admit I was

[00:48:47] not a big Howard Stern

[00:48:48] listener until I wrote

[00:48:51] this and then a bunch of

[00:48:52] people told me to go

[00:48:54] you know watch and listen

[00:48:55] to his interviews.

[00:48:57] And what I noticed is that

[00:48:58] he he I don't know if

[00:49:01] he thinks that he knows these

[00:49:02] people or he just like makes

[00:49:03] assumptions and lets lets them

[00:49:06] elaborate.

[00:49:07] But for example with Lindsay

[00:49:08] Lohan he said a bunch of

[00:49:10] stuff where he assumed things

[00:49:12] about how she thinks.

[00:49:14] And he says you know when

[00:49:15] you see like an Emma Stone or

[00:49:17] Jessica Chastain they got

[00:49:19] a similar look to you.

[00:49:20] I can tell you've thought

[00:49:21] about this when you see some

[00:49:22] of those movies don't you

[00:49:23] sit there and go oh I can

[00:49:25] effing do those movies.

[00:49:26] It's got to be driving

[00:49:27] you nuts.

[00:49:28] So he claims that he knows

[00:49:30] how Lindsay Lohan feels.

[00:49:31] And she's like yeah that is

[00:49:33] exactly what I think.

[00:49:35] You know that's interesting

[00:49:36] like kind of putting yourself

[00:49:38] on the on the side of

[00:49:41] the interviewee like the

[00:49:42] person you're interviewing.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:44] And he does that very good

[00:49:46] and they go along with it

[00:49:47] because look he's a very

[00:49:48] powerful guy.

[00:49:49] So yeah and and

[00:49:51] there he's kind of taking

[00:49:52] their side.

[00:49:53] So he I think I think

[00:49:55] with him he's very

[00:49:56] interesting because I think

[00:49:58] he tries to get dirt

[00:50:00] about everybody during the

[00:50:02] interview and they all

[00:50:04] at first I notice in a lot

[00:50:05] of interviews people say

[00:50:07] no no I don't want to talk

[00:50:08] about that.

[00:50:09] Yeah.

[00:50:09] But then by doing this

[00:50:10] technique he kind of gets

[00:50:13] in their head enough and

[00:50:14] he's on their side and he's

[00:50:16] he's not the listener's

[00:50:17] voice he's their voice.

[00:50:19] And finally they're like oh

[00:50:21] I'm talking to myself so

[00:50:22] finally they are able to

[00:50:23] like I saw him interview

[00:50:24] Jonah Hill once and

[00:50:27] he was like so when you had

[00:50:28] that your first role did you

[00:50:30] start like having sex with a

[00:50:31] lot of girls even though

[00:50:32] you're kind of fat.

[00:50:34] And like he's just very

[00:50:35] direct and he's like and

[00:50:37] don't Jonah Hill is really

[00:50:37] uncomfortable.

[00:50:38] It's like oh Howard I don't

[00:50:39] want to you know I don't

[00:50:40] want to talk about that

[00:50:41] could we just talk about the

[00:50:41] movie.

[00:50:42] And but he like so they

[00:50:46] talk about the way and then

[00:50:47] he's doing this where he's

[00:50:48] like on their side but he

[00:50:49] keeps every now and then

[00:50:51] he'll ask like the real

[00:50:52] harsh question and

[00:50:55] Jonah Hill be like I don't

[00:50:56] want to but by the end

[00:50:57] Jonah Hill is like listing

[00:50:58] all the girls he had sex with.

[00:50:59] No way.

[00:51:00] Yeah like he he just works

[00:51:02] his way in and he just keeps

[00:51:04] poking but then he'll get

[00:51:05] back to like oh man I'm on

[00:51:07] your side I'm like you know.

[00:51:09] Yeah.

[00:51:10] You know and I think it's

[00:51:11] he combines he uses this

[00:51:13] technique that you're

[00:51:14] talking about to sort of

[00:51:17] get inside and the person's

[00:51:19] head and then finally

[00:51:20] they're super comfortable so

[00:51:22] they say they forget they're

[00:51:23] on the radio and they

[00:51:24] do.

[00:51:24] Yeah.

[00:51:25] I watched I forget which

[00:51:27] celebrity it was but they were

[00:51:28] explaining the experience of

[00:51:29] why they shared so much on the

[00:51:31] show and they were like it

[00:51:33] almost feels like you enter

[00:51:34] this like different thing

[00:51:36] and there's no cameras and

[00:51:37] there's nothing you forget

[00:51:39] that all this stuff is around

[00:51:40] you and you're just having a

[00:51:41] conversation and then it

[00:51:42] ends and you're like what

[00:51:44] did I just say you know it's

[00:51:45] like that feeling of what

[00:51:47] just happened and that's

[00:51:48] the best interviewers make

[00:51:50] it seem like time just

[00:51:52] goes flies by and you

[00:51:53] don't even know what's

[00:51:54] going on.

[00:51:55] Yeah I've heard that too from

[00:51:56] people who have been on Stern's

[00:51:58] show that at first they

[00:52:00] tell themselves in advance

[00:52:01] I'm not going to talk about X Y

[00:52:03] and Z and by the end

[00:52:06] they can't figure out how it

[00:52:07] happened but they talked about

[00:52:08] all those things they didn't

[00:52:09] want to talk about.

[00:52:10] Crazy.

[00:52:11] So number six here is the

[00:52:13] great interviewers remove

[00:52:15] barriers to enhance intimacy

[00:52:18] and I love this example of

[00:52:19] Sean Evans.

[00:52:20] Sean Evans yeah so usually

[00:52:22] the obvious example is

[00:52:24] you remove chairs and

[00:52:25] or you remove tables and

[00:52:27] things like that in between

[00:52:28] the interviewer and interviewer

[00:52:29] to build intimacy quickly.

[00:52:31] So Oprah will sit on the same

[00:52:33] couch like things like that

[00:52:34] but it's not just physical

[00:52:36] objects that you can remove

[00:52:38] to build intimacy.

[00:52:39] It's sometimes like

[00:52:41] like Sean Evans with the

[00:52:42] hot ones where they eat

[00:52:44] progressively hotter chicken

[00:52:46] wings throughout the interview

[00:52:47] it's you're removing

[00:52:50] like the barrier of like

[00:52:51] you're breaking down the guest

[00:52:52] composure

[00:52:53] because everybody comes in like

[00:52:55] super glam ready to do this

[00:52:57] interview and then by the end

[00:52:59] when they're eating a really

[00:53:00] spicy chicken wing like

[00:53:02] they're crying their nose is

[00:53:03] running their throat is burning

[00:53:05] that you know a lot of them

[00:53:06] just can't handle it.

[00:53:08] And you see like Tyra Banks

[00:53:10] had a ridiculous reaction on

[00:53:11] the show you see their true

[00:53:13] true colors.

[00:53:15] So you know I included

[00:53:17] this clip of Sydney Sweeney

[00:53:20] but she's really trying so

[00:53:21] hard to hold on to her

[00:53:23] composure and she's like

[00:53:25] please like she her voice

[00:53:26] is shaking. It's super high

[00:53:28] pitch. It's fascinating to watch.

[00:53:30] So what do you do like like I

[00:53:32] used to do podcasts in person

[00:53:34] before COVID but since COVID

[00:53:36] very rare that I do a podcast

[00:53:37] in person and you probably

[00:53:39] interview on the phone or

[00:53:40] Zoom or whatever.

[00:53:41] Like how do you do this

[00:53:43] technique if there's a lot of

[00:53:45] like built in barriers.

[00:53:47] Yeah I mean it's super hard

[00:53:49] to do because normally the best

[00:53:51] interviews especially the ones

[00:53:52] like magazine profiles for

[00:53:54] example you're doing

[00:53:56] you're often doing an activity

[00:53:57] with the person. So you know

[00:53:59] whether you're at a restaurant

[00:54:00] having dinner you see how

[00:54:02] they move through the world

[00:54:03] how they treat the waiter how

[00:54:04] they you know all this stuff

[00:54:06] context clues that they can't

[00:54:08] just tell you I'm a generous

[00:54:09] person well you didn't even

[00:54:11] leave a tip you know like

[00:54:12] that kind of thing.

[00:54:14] But like this

[00:54:16] is hard because I can tell

[00:54:18] you how great I am but unless

[00:54:20] you see me in my natural habitat

[00:54:21] it's hard.

[00:54:23] I don't know I don't know what

[00:54:25] do you think.

[00:54:26] I think it's I think it's the

[00:54:28] repeat guest thing is one

[00:54:30] way so you're going to have a

[00:54:32] hard time that first time but

[00:54:33] then it gets easier.

[00:54:35] I think the pre-interview

[00:54:36] like you know you're on for

[00:54:37] a little bit and you're just

[00:54:38] chatting and but I

[00:54:41] think I think it's really hard

[00:54:42] now or sometimes

[00:54:45] I'll try to do an activity

[00:54:47] and then a week later do

[00:54:49] an interview.

[00:54:49] And but that's rare so it's hard

[00:54:51] to do that.

[00:54:52] It also one

[00:54:55] interesting thing could be

[00:54:57] that you found out

[00:54:59] a really interesting piece of

[00:55:01] information about the person

[00:55:02] and you bring it up like in

[00:55:04] the middle of the interview

[00:55:05] it's kind of like a small

[00:55:06] bomb that goes off or it's

[00:55:07] like oh wow how did you know

[00:55:09] this and that breaks down

[00:55:10] the little like the facade

[00:55:12] a little bit.

[00:55:13] That I try to do so I try

[00:55:15] to find like

[00:55:17] thing odd things in their

[00:55:19] background that I could bring

[00:55:21] up and then connect

[00:55:23] with things they might be

[00:55:24] saying now.

[00:55:26] I don't really have a good

[00:55:27] example but

[00:55:29] you know like you mentioned

[00:55:30] before how like you read

[00:55:32] you know or you knew someone

[00:55:33] did their PhD at your

[00:55:34] university.

[00:55:35] So I might go as far as to

[00:55:37] read the PhD these

[00:55:38] the thesis they wrote and try

[00:55:40] to find some

[00:55:42] connection between that

[00:55:44] thesis and what's going on

[00:55:46] in their lives right now

[00:55:47] and or

[00:55:49] related to

[00:55:51] you know related to something

[00:55:53] they're doing now in a way

[00:55:54] that they might not even have

[00:55:55] thought of.

[00:55:56] And so I'll try to kind of

[00:55:57] like you know confuse

[00:55:59] them with over researching.

[00:56:01] Exactly. Exactly.

[00:56:02] Just like something that's

[00:56:04] unconventional they're not

[00:56:05] expecting.

[00:56:06] Yeah.

[00:56:07] Now this is a really

[00:56:09] important one and

[00:56:10] number seven here is a

[00:56:12] great interviewer strives to

[00:56:13] capture the juice of the

[00:56:14] story.

[00:56:15] And you have Barbara Walters

[00:56:17] interviewing Monica Lewinsky

[00:56:19] and there's a lot of different

[00:56:19] angles. It's like you know

[00:56:21] it's a president of the United

[00:56:22] States.

[00:56:24] The sexual things everybody

[00:56:25] wants to hear like the sexiest

[00:56:27] details as

[00:56:29] sorted as it might be.

[00:56:30] But with with

[00:56:33] this example you give about

[00:56:34] Monica Lewinsky and Barbara

[00:56:36] Walters it really is the juice

[00:56:37] of the story like how

[00:56:40] she was worried about what her

[00:56:42] mother would think.

[00:56:44] And we can all relate to that

[00:56:45] doing something that's going to

[00:56:46] be public and like what are

[00:56:48] people going to think if they

[00:56:50] find this out.

[00:56:52] Yeah.

[00:56:54] Barbara Walters is really good

[00:56:56] at that.

[00:56:57] Yes. And it's like it's

[00:56:59] it's such a good interview for

[00:57:00] so many reasons.

[00:57:01] But it's mainly because

[00:57:03] Barbara Walters knows that

[00:57:05] she doesn't go there.

[00:57:06] I mean she asks all the

[00:57:08] direct newsworthy questions

[00:57:10] but what she does is like she

[00:57:12] gets into Monica's head

[00:57:14] and by the end you're like I

[00:57:16] get it. I get why she's in love

[00:57:17] with Bill Clinton.

[00:57:19] But also at the same time you're

[00:57:20] like I cannot believe this

[00:57:22] happened. It's it's

[00:57:23] it's fascinating.

[00:57:24] It's like a masterclass in

[00:57:25] interviewing and she

[00:57:27] humanizes Monica

[00:57:29] to the point where you're

[00:57:30] like wow like you know

[00:57:32] young girl bad decision making

[00:57:34] all this stuff irresponsible

[00:57:35] president.

[00:57:37] But you it's like she

[00:57:39] refers to the juice is

[00:57:41] the details of the story that

[00:57:42] humanize the person that

[00:57:44] you're interviewing.

[00:57:44] And Barbara says don't be so

[00:57:46] intent on getting just the

[00:57:48] facts that you take out all

[00:57:49] the juice.

[00:57:51] Yeah. And it's interesting

[00:57:52] because she kind of

[00:57:54] layers into this.

[00:57:55] So like

[00:57:57] you know you say like

[00:57:58] Lewinsky says I felt very

[00:57:59] responsible and Barbara

[00:58:01] Walters says responsible for

[00:58:03] what exactly.

[00:58:04] And by the way that was

[00:58:05] there's a nuance there

[00:58:06] because she didn't say why

[00:58:07] do you feel responsible.

[00:58:08] I would have taken it in a

[00:58:09] completely different direction.

[00:58:10] Lewinsky say well I agreed to

[00:58:12] go into his office blah blah

[00:58:13] blah instead she says

[00:58:15] responsible for what

[00:58:17] and that led to the

[00:58:17] discussion of her mother.

[00:58:19] But then that allows her to

[00:58:21] get enough intimacy with

[00:58:22] with Monica that

[00:58:24] she says Monica

[00:58:26] are you still in love with

[00:58:27] Bill Clinton.

[00:58:28] Right.

[00:58:29] And she uses Monica's name

[00:58:30] she's just Monica she doesn't

[00:58:31] say are you still in love

[00:58:32] with Bill Clinton.

[00:58:32] So it's more personal when

[00:58:34] she uses the name.

[00:58:34] And if she had started off

[00:58:35] with are you still know

[00:58:36] with Bill Clinton.

[00:58:37] I think that would have been a

[00:58:37] different answer.

[00:58:39] Different different interview

[00:58:41] then.

[00:58:41] Yeah the whole interview like

[00:58:43] builds on itself it's

[00:58:44] fascinating to watch.

[00:58:46] I think that's really hard.

[00:58:47] I think and as you

[00:58:48] mentioned later the only way

[00:58:50] to get that skill is doing

[00:58:52] lots of interviews.

[00:58:53] Yeah it's true.

[00:58:55] And it's like you notice

[00:58:56] so many things as you're

[00:58:57] watching it like at one

[00:58:59] point Monica was key I didn't

[00:59:01] include this but in the

[00:59:02] interview she says

[00:59:03] you know at one point my

[00:59:05] mom like I couldn't shower

[00:59:06] alone my mom would sit

[00:59:08] in the bathroom with me

[00:59:09] while I showered because

[00:59:11] they were all afraid that I

[00:59:12] might do something.

[00:59:13] She's obviously talking about

[00:59:14] like you know my take her own

[00:59:15] life but Barbara

[00:59:18] Walters is very skilled at

[00:59:20] like knowing when to dig

[00:59:22] deeper and knowing when to

[00:59:23] kind of back off.

[00:59:25] And she's she says this

[00:59:26] in another interview

[00:59:28] Barbara Walter says that she's

[00:59:29] like you know for the

[00:59:31] really really painful stuff

[00:59:33] I'm not going to keep

[00:59:33] digging until I break you

[00:59:35] basically.

[00:59:35] I'm going to like get there

[00:59:37] and then back off.

[00:59:38] And that's a skill in that

[00:59:40] that's like a you know social

[00:59:42] awareness skill that not

[00:59:43] everybody has.

[00:59:45] And also knowing that she

[00:59:47] could go back to it later.

[00:59:49] Like she's patient.

[00:59:50] Barbara Walters.

[00:59:51] And again it's she's almost

[00:59:53] become a cliche interviewer.

[00:59:56] I mean not her but like just

[00:59:57] the way people think about

[00:59:58] her but I think people

[00:59:59] underestimate her full

[01:00:02] her full power as an

[01:00:03] interviewer Barbara Walters.

[01:00:05] Totally.

[01:00:06] I mean because then she later

[01:00:07] on she's doing stuff like the

[01:00:08] view and all that but yeah

[01:00:09] you may you give an example

[01:00:11] in the next thing.

[01:00:12] Yes.

[01:00:13] Challenging a subject's

[01:00:14] perspective with genuine

[01:00:15] curiosity.

[01:00:16] She interviewed the Shah of

[01:00:17] Iran.

[01:00:18] You know right before he's

[01:00:19] getting overthrown.

[01:00:20] Like she was like the biggest

[01:00:21] interviewer on the planet at

[01:00:22] that point.

[01:00:22] No I know.

[01:00:24] And it's interesting a lot of

[01:00:25] times she became friends.

[01:00:26] I think that was kind of

[01:00:27] like wait a second.

[01:00:28] She became friends with the

[01:00:29] people that she interviewed

[01:00:30] she became friends with Monica

[01:00:31] Lewinsky.

[01:00:33] And I believe the Shah

[01:00:34] Iran but but but it's

[01:00:36] interesting because like I

[01:00:38] do think like a really in

[01:00:40] depth human interview

[01:00:43] has no choice but to

[01:00:45] leave the people like oh we

[01:00:47] know each other on a different

[01:00:48] level.

[01:00:49] You know.

[01:00:50] Yeah I think when you when

[01:00:52] you really are able to go a

[01:00:54] couple layers deep and then

[01:00:56] you know she was asking she

[01:00:58] was trying to ask him and

[01:00:59] talk to him about his views

[01:01:00] on women and you know

[01:01:02] coming from a Muslim country

[01:01:04] and so on in 1977.

[01:01:07] Yeah.

[01:01:07] Yeah which was you know on the

[01:01:09] one hand I don't know how

[01:01:13] completely we treat women

[01:01:14] differently now but at least

[01:01:15] yeah at that point in the

[01:01:16] seventies was the height of

[01:01:19] the you know glorious

[01:01:21] dynams tradition original

[01:01:23] feminism movement and things

[01:01:25] like the equal rights

[01:01:26] amendment were being discussed

[01:01:28] and and so it was a

[01:01:29] different conversation but

[01:01:30] it was still very a big

[01:01:32] conversation in America maybe

[01:01:33] for the first time.

[01:01:34] And yeah.

[01:01:36] I don't know it might have

[01:01:37] actually been you know then a

[01:01:38] year later he's overthrown and

[01:01:40] us really didn't help him and

[01:01:42] we got left with what we have

[01:01:45] now this kind of you know

[01:01:47] religious you know super

[01:01:49] religious government Iran

[01:01:50] that most of the people don't

[01:01:51] like most of the people wanted

[01:01:52] the Shah of Iran in Iran

[01:01:54] and now most 80 million people

[01:01:56] in Iran are secular and

[01:01:57] they're ruled by this

[01:01:59] super religious.

[01:02:00] I did not know any of this.

[01:02:01] OK.

[01:02:02] Oh yeah like Iran does

[01:02:04] not like their government like

[01:02:05] the people there they and

[01:02:07] that's why they literally

[01:02:08] beg the outside world to

[01:02:10] understand this because they

[01:02:11] don't want to get bombed if

[01:02:12] their government does

[01:02:13] something like they prefer not

[01:02:15] to be they were completely

[01:02:16] Western country under the Shah

[01:02:18] almost not completely but

[01:02:20] almost.

[01:02:21] And now they're not but

[01:02:23] they don't want they want

[01:02:24] people to know that so that

[01:02:25] that they don't get blamed

[01:02:28] if like Iran bombs Israel

[01:02:30] they don't want to get bombed

[01:02:31] back as they're not like

[01:02:32] their government.

[01:02:33] I'm going to I'm going to do

[01:02:34] some research after this.

[01:02:36] Yeah.

[01:02:37] And I think that was a mistake

[01:02:38] for for Jimmy Carter at the

[01:02:40] time to not help

[01:02:43] the the Shah a little more

[01:02:44] because we yeah we didn't

[01:02:45] like some of the things he

[01:02:46] did but that's like every

[01:02:48] country in the world.

[01:02:49] We don't we don't like most

[01:02:50] of the things the French

[01:02:51] do either but we're still

[01:02:53] their ally.

[01:02:54] Oh that's fascinating.

[01:02:54] There's so many layers here.

[01:02:57] Yeah.

[01:02:57] And and Barbara Walters is

[01:03:00] you know I think she

[01:03:01] understood that like he's

[01:03:02] a dictator but he was still

[01:03:05] kind of our friend and then we

[01:03:07] we you can't you can't condone

[01:03:10] you don't condone everything

[01:03:11] your friends do obviously

[01:03:12] and particularly at that

[01:03:13] geopolitical level.

[01:03:14] But he was certainly much

[01:03:15] better than than what happened.

[01:03:17] Yeah.

[01:03:18] You know number nine is they

[01:03:20] know all humans seek

[01:03:22] genuine validation and this

[01:03:23] is really important too.

[01:03:25] Yeah.

[01:03:26] This I found fascinating

[01:03:27] because Oprah talks

[01:03:30] about how pretty much

[01:03:32] every person that she's

[01:03:33] interviewed including George

[01:03:34] W. Bush Barack Obama Beyonce

[01:03:36] anybody's she's interviewed

[01:03:38] after the interview ends

[01:03:40] they always ask her I bet you

[01:03:41] you get this question too.

[01:03:43] They're like oh was that good

[01:03:45] was that OK.

[01:03:46] And it's like and she's

[01:03:47] like what do you mean

[01:03:48] you're a Beyonce of course

[01:03:49] it was OK but like everybody

[01:03:51] has that small piece of them

[01:03:53] that's like did you

[01:03:55] like what I said

[01:03:56] and do you think this will

[01:03:57] resonate with people.

[01:03:58] And I think a great

[01:03:59] interviewer's job is to make

[01:04:00] the person feel validated

[01:04:03] in like and like actually

[01:04:04] listen to during the interview.

[01:04:07] Yeah.

[01:04:07] And I think this happens at

[01:04:09] every level like so for many

[01:04:11] years I did stand up comedy

[01:04:13] and then I owned part of a

[01:04:15] stand up comedy club.

[01:04:16] So I would see all these

[01:04:16] great comedians perform

[01:04:18] on stage you know they'd

[01:04:19] be trying out material for

[01:04:21] their special or whatever.

[01:04:22] And no matter how famous

[01:04:25] the comedian was like they

[01:04:26] always ask that too like was

[01:04:27] that OK was that good.

[01:04:29] I think the audience liked me

[01:04:30] and people are people are human.

[01:04:33] They want to know they want

[01:04:35] to be liked exactly.

[01:04:37] It's I thought that was really

[01:04:38] like I was like I would have

[01:04:39] never thought but yeah I do

[01:04:40] it too.

[01:04:41] It's crazy.

[01:04:43] Have you interviewed any

[01:04:44] like hardcore criminals.

[01:04:46] Oh my god.

[01:04:47] No I don't think so.

[01:04:49] Like I need criminals

[01:04:51] like anybody who's got in jail.

[01:04:53] Yes I interviewed them.

[01:04:56] Oh my gosh.

[01:04:58] The guy who Leonardo DiCaprio

[01:05:00] played and catch me if you can.

[01:05:02] You know Frank Agnale.

[01:05:03] Frank Agnale.

[01:05:04] I interviewed him as well.

[01:05:05] Yeah exactly.

[01:05:06] So fascinating.

[01:05:07] He was a big criminal but then

[01:05:09] he worked for the FBI so I don't

[01:05:10] know if that counts.

[01:05:11] Yeah no and and a lot of

[01:05:14] times you know I

[01:05:17] interviewed someone recently

[01:05:18] who committed a fairly

[01:05:20] big fraud like four hundred

[01:05:21] million dollar Ponzi scheme

[01:05:23] and he went to jail for nine

[01:05:24] years.

[01:05:25] Well and and I

[01:05:28] think it was very important for

[01:05:30] me interviewing him that I

[01:05:32] didn't treat him like someone

[01:05:34] who did something really bad

[01:05:36] but I still wanted to make sure

[01:05:37] my listeners knew.

[01:05:39] Yeah.

[01:05:40] That it was clear this person

[01:05:41] did something bad and I was

[01:05:42] against it so it's sometimes is

[01:05:44] a tricky thing.

[01:05:46] Yeah yeah because you're

[01:05:47] trying to be empathetic but

[01:05:51] there has to be a clear line

[01:05:52] of like you know this is I

[01:05:54] mean we can all agree that

[01:05:55] what you did was not right.

[01:05:57] You know it was tricky to like

[01:05:58] I interviewed Andrew Tate.

[01:06:00] And OK you know and Andrew

[01:06:02] Tate.

[01:06:02] Oh man.

[01:06:03] Obviously that's a whole mess

[01:06:06] if you're trying if you're

[01:06:07] trying to be like by everybody

[01:06:08] don't interview Andrew Tate

[01:06:10] because nobody will.

[01:06:11] Right.

[01:06:12] Everybody's going to make a

[01:06:13] judgment.

[01:06:13] Oh you must agree with

[01:06:14] everything he says or you

[01:06:16] must like him or he used you

[01:06:19] or whatever.

[01:06:20] So you sometimes the

[01:06:21] interviewer has to balance

[01:06:23] all of these things too.

[01:06:25] Yeah.

[01:06:25] It's it's so hard.

[01:06:27] It's like you know these

[01:06:29] people's views would never go

[01:06:32] challenged if I didn't

[01:06:33] interview them.

[01:06:34] You know what I mean like for

[01:06:36] anybody interviewing a

[01:06:37] dictator are you just quote

[01:06:38] unquote giving them a platform

[01:06:40] or are you interviewing them

[01:06:42] and challenging what they

[01:06:43] think so that more people can

[01:06:46] like hear that it's BS.

[01:06:48] I don't know.

[01:06:48] It's it's really difficult.

[01:06:50] Like let's say you had to

[01:06:51] interview Putin.

[01:06:53] OK.

[01:06:53] So now OK.

[01:06:55] So there's so many layers in

[01:06:57] which you from Bulgaria.

[01:06:59] He's from Russia.

[01:07:00] This will be a tough one James.

[01:07:02] Right.

[01:07:02] Like so your family would

[01:07:04] they might say don't talk to

[01:07:06] him or right.

[01:07:07] And then people might think

[01:07:08] you're will make a judgment

[01:07:11] about whether you're a

[01:07:11] Democrat or Republican.

[01:07:13] Right.

[01:07:13] Oh you know only Republicans

[01:07:14] would talk to Putin but

[01:07:16] obviously he would be a

[01:07:17] fascinating person interview.

[01:07:18] I mean he's on you know

[01:07:20] he's a leader of Russia.

[01:07:21] He's he's conducting a war

[01:07:23] whether you agree with that war

[01:07:24] or not.

[01:07:25] Yeah.

[01:07:25] It's I would no matter what

[01:07:27] he did I would interview him.

[01:07:29] Yeah.

[01:07:30] Well here's it's so tricky.

[01:07:33] It's like the whole point of

[01:07:35] journalism in general

[01:07:37] is to interview people

[01:07:39] who are doing things

[01:07:41] that are newsworthy

[01:07:42] that are affecting the world

[01:07:44] all this stuff by not

[01:07:46] by ignoring someone doesn't

[01:07:47] make them go away.

[01:07:49] In fact it actually fuels them

[01:07:51] more.

[01:07:52] I don't know there's a

[01:07:54] there's a whole philosophical

[01:07:56] discussion on this.

[01:07:58] Yeah it gets back to the thing

[01:07:59] of you have to join a team

[01:08:01] and then and then only talk

[01:08:04] to the people that that team

[01:08:05] approves.

[01:08:06] Exactly.

[01:08:06] And it's like I want nobody's

[01:08:08] team.

[01:08:08] I just want to hear the

[01:08:09] information and then

[01:08:10] challenge that information.

[01:08:12] Yeah like I was once

[01:08:14] on the podcast talking to

[01:08:16] Mehdi Hassan who had this show

[01:08:17] on MSNBC.

[01:08:18] Yes there's a profile on him

[01:08:20] right now.

[01:08:21] Oh yeah I have seen that

[01:08:23] and I told him I'm

[01:08:25] neutral.

[01:08:26] I really tried very hard to be

[01:08:27] neutral so I could talk to

[01:08:29] everybody and not feel

[01:08:31] biased.

[01:08:32] And he said there's no way to

[01:08:33] be neutral.

[01:08:34] He challenged me on that

[01:08:36] and we were going to follow

[01:08:37] up at some point and he was

[01:08:39] going to prove to me that I

[01:08:40] wasn't neutral.

[01:08:41] And maybe I'm not I don't

[01:08:42] know but.

[01:08:43] And there's the thing I mean

[01:08:44] I guess nobody's a truly

[01:08:46] neutral but it's

[01:08:47] but I also you know

[01:08:49] completely reject the idea that

[01:08:51] you're either a Republican

[01:08:53] or the liberal like I don't

[01:08:55] fall into any category.

[01:08:56] It's like really hard.

[01:08:57] Maybe you're not neutral.

[01:08:58] You're just like not part

[01:09:00] of any one group.

[01:09:02] Yeah where you have to like do

[01:09:04] everything that group says.

[01:09:06] Yeah.

[01:09:06] And but then I wonder

[01:09:08] look the podcasts

[01:09:10] that are the most popular take

[01:09:12] a stance and are really biased.

[01:09:15] That's true.

[01:09:16] I'm just not like that.

[01:09:17] Yeah it's that's not your style.

[01:09:20] And the good thing with what you do

[01:09:21] is that you could profile

[01:09:23] anybody.

[01:09:24] So you're trying to take lessons

[01:09:26] from them and so you could choose

[01:09:28] they don't they don't you know you

[01:09:29] you've seldom will profile

[01:09:31] like a political person.

[01:09:33] That's the thing like I truly

[01:09:36] believe that you can learn from

[01:09:38] awful people about what not

[01:09:40] to do.

[01:09:41] You know like there's there's

[01:09:42] lessons in everybody.

[01:09:43] It's not just like the good

[01:09:45] moral whatever people that we

[01:09:47] put on these like pedestals.

[01:09:49] It's also the people like oh my

[01:09:51] god look at how their life turned

[01:09:52] out I don't want that at all.

[01:09:55] Yeah like like who's

[01:09:57] who would you say is like the

[01:09:58] worst person in the world right

[01:09:59] now would you would you interview

[01:10:00] that person.

[01:10:02] Oh my god.

[01:10:03] I don't even know.

[01:10:04] It's also like you know

[01:10:07] nobody is like only evil or

[01:10:08] only good but there are some

[01:10:10] pretty bizarre.

[01:10:12] Some people are insane so

[01:10:13] like they are mentally ill and

[01:10:14] bad.

[01:10:16] OK for example here's an

[01:10:17] example.

[01:10:18] So right now I'm working on an

[01:10:19] article that's similar to this

[01:10:22] interview and techniques but it's

[01:10:23] on public speaking.

[01:10:24] And you know on Twitter I

[01:10:26] asked who is the greatest

[01:10:28] public speaker of all time.

[01:10:29] And of course people came up

[01:10:30] with Hitler Mussolini a bunch

[01:10:32] of cult leaders a bunch of

[01:10:33] other dictators.

[01:10:35] And I'm like I get it

[01:10:37] but in my article right now

[01:10:39] I'm saying like I understand

[01:10:40] that these people are probably

[01:10:41] amazing public speakers.

[01:10:43] I'm not going to include them

[01:10:45] just because I do not want to

[01:10:48] like feature their stories

[01:10:50] but the world's greatest speakers

[01:10:52] all use similar techniques.

[01:10:54] That's not to say they did or

[01:10:55] did not use this is just I'm

[01:10:57] choosing my editorial style

[01:11:00] is choosing not to include

[01:11:01] dictators and cult leaders in

[01:11:03] this article.

[01:11:04] But it's really interesting

[01:11:05] because like you know

[01:11:08] that you're right they all use

[01:11:09] similar techniques and

[01:11:11] that's going to be a

[01:11:12] fascinating article and you

[01:11:14] write it.

[01:11:14] And I've written a lot about

[01:11:15] public speaking as well

[01:11:17] because it is another thing

[01:11:19] like interviewing where you're

[01:11:21] trying to win over just

[01:11:23] like in an interview you're

[01:11:24] trying to win over an audience

[01:11:26] and there's there are

[01:11:28] specific techniques to do it

[01:11:30] and you have to be as genuine

[01:11:31] and sincere as possible as

[01:11:32] well.

[01:11:33] But like a dictator

[01:11:36] will you know for instance

[01:11:39] a dictator uses Robert

[01:11:41] Childini's consistency

[01:11:43] technique.

[01:11:43] Yeah like they'll use all his

[01:11:46] techniques like you know someone

[01:11:47] like Hitler might say something

[01:11:48] like you know you know wasn't

[01:11:51] your life awful before

[01:11:52] and you know when when

[01:11:54] bread was like a gazillion

[01:11:56] marks and people would say yes

[01:11:58] and then and then when I became

[01:12:00] leader wasn't your life better

[01:12:02] and then it's a bigger.

[01:12:03] So it's like that consistency

[01:12:04] like getting them to say a

[01:12:05] small yes to get them to a

[01:12:06] bigger yes he was very

[01:12:07] effective at doing things like

[01:12:09] that. Right.

[01:12:11] You know and cult leaders are

[01:12:13] like that as well.

[01:12:16] It is just like up to the person

[01:12:18] like maybe you really don't

[01:12:20] like me.

[01:12:21] I am not entitled to be on

[01:12:23] your show.

[01:12:24] You know what I mean like it's

[01:12:25] just I think that there

[01:12:27] everybody every person has

[01:12:29] like a freedom to have

[01:12:31] whoever they want on their

[01:12:33] platform and if they want

[01:12:35] to interview Putin and ask

[01:12:37] them ask him questions

[01:12:39] it's their right like I have

[01:12:41] you will not catch me not

[01:12:42] defending free speech.

[01:12:44] Yeah good.

[01:12:47] Good thing.

[01:12:49] And look let's see

[01:12:51] the and you say here the only

[01:12:53] way to become a master interviewer

[01:12:54] is to interview Larry King

[01:12:56] conducted more than 60,000

[01:12:58] interviews in his career.

[01:12:59] Oprah has done more than 37,000.

[01:13:01] Joe Rogan is hosted more than

[01:13:03] 21 guests on this podcast.

[01:13:05] It's really true.

[01:13:06] You've got to do things.

[01:13:08] Yeah.

[01:13:09] And it's like once you think

[01:13:10] about 60,000 interviews

[01:13:13] that is so many

[01:13:15] or 20 or 37,000.

[01:13:18] And then people think about Joe

[01:13:20] Rogan you know oh he has the

[01:13:21] biggest show biggest podcast

[01:13:23] but he's only done 2100

[01:13:25] recorded interviews on his show.

[01:13:27] So it's like and you've done

[01:13:28] 1500.

[01:13:29] So it's like those are big

[01:13:30] numbers but 60,000 is

[01:13:32] like a different universe.

[01:13:35] Yeah.

[01:13:36] And you know and again like he

[01:13:38] does like like Larry King

[01:13:40] those specific are interviews

[01:13:42] and Joe Rogan it does

[01:13:44] it still feels so much like

[01:13:46] conversations and I really

[01:13:48] almost aspire to that.

[01:13:51] But but but you have to use

[01:13:52] interview techniques like these

[01:13:53] are all really important

[01:13:55] techniques.

[01:13:56] But you know one thing I'm

[01:13:57] going to try at one point is

[01:13:58] just give everybody go on

[01:14:00] Twitter give everybody the Zoom

[01:14:02] link and interview

[01:14:05] whoever just comes on.

[01:14:06] That's cool.

[01:14:07] Yeah, just just a show

[01:14:09] that everybody's got a story.

[01:14:11] And like of course Brandon

[01:14:12] Stanton and Humans of New York

[01:14:13] does that really well.

[01:14:15] But there's a thing.

[01:14:17] Sorry what I say is like you

[01:14:19] don't have to have a podcast

[01:14:20] to do an interview or have a

[01:14:22] conversation.

[01:14:22] It's just like with any

[01:14:23] stranger you can practice

[01:14:25] these skills and just become

[01:14:26] a better conversationalist.

[01:14:29] Yeah.

[01:14:29] And like what do you what

[01:14:31] do you think though on TikTok

[01:14:33] or Instagram I see all these

[01:14:34] guys who go up to people and

[01:14:36] say hey how much rent do you

[01:14:37] pay?

[01:14:38] And they they say oh 15

[01:14:40] thousand a month in New York

[01:14:41] City.

[01:14:42] Can I get a tour of your

[01:14:43] apartment and

[01:14:45] they give the tour.

[01:14:46] And like so what do you think

[01:14:47] of that style where it's like

[01:14:49] one there's one question

[01:14:50] and then the they ask

[01:14:52] everybody and then the

[01:14:52] interview is around that.

[01:14:54] I kind of like that because

[01:14:56] it has an angle.

[01:14:57] So you know it's kind of

[01:14:58] like hot ones.

[01:14:59] The angle is I'm going to ask

[01:15:00] you these random questions while

[01:15:01] you eat spicy food.

[01:15:03] It's it's the same as like it

[01:15:04] has a slight point of view so you

[01:15:06] know exactly what you're getting

[01:15:08] but then it can go anywhere.

[01:15:10] Yeah and there's just voyeurism

[01:15:11] aspect.

[01:15:12] Yeah.

[01:15:13] So it's it's like can you

[01:15:15] show me.

[01:15:16] And it's the intimacy.

[01:15:18] It's like the most intimate

[01:15:19] thing you can show somebody

[01:15:20] is your home.

[01:15:21] Right.

[01:15:22] And the guy that the main guy

[01:15:23] I'm thinking of who does this

[01:15:24] and maybe there's more than one

[01:15:25] but the main guy I'm thinking

[01:15:26] why I always see who does

[01:15:27] this he always says can I

[01:15:29] sit in your bed.

[01:15:30] Oh my God I have not seen that.

[01:15:33] Yeah and it's usually like some

[01:15:34] really beautiful woman who

[01:15:36] he goes up to and says hey how

[01:15:37] much do you like it usually

[01:15:39] starts there.

[01:15:40] So he's getting every voyeuristic

[01:15:42] aspect and you kind of are

[01:15:43] left wondering like is he going

[01:15:44] to have sex with this girl.

[01:15:46] Like oh my God.

[01:15:47] It's the kind of interview sort

[01:15:49] of is in that direction.

[01:15:52] But I kind of like the or or

[01:15:53] what or there's the what do

[01:15:54] you do for a living guy.

[01:15:55] Like I like that guy too.

[01:15:57] Yeah yeah no that's what

[01:15:59] they're trying to do.

[01:15:59] They're trying to just like

[01:16:01] quickly build intimacy

[01:16:03] with someone in a way that's

[01:16:04] like can I see your house.

[01:16:06] How much money do you make.

[01:16:08] What do you do for a living

[01:16:08] like all the things that people

[01:16:10] think make them who they are.

[01:16:12] And I guess it is also the

[01:16:15] consistency thing like if you

[01:16:16] answer like obviously we don't

[01:16:18] see all the rejections these

[01:16:19] people do they only show us

[01:16:21] the Instagram reels of

[01:16:23] of the people who answer.

[01:16:24] But if so if you're already

[01:16:25] answering what do you do for

[01:16:27] a living or how much money

[01:16:28] do you make or or what's

[01:16:31] your rent.

[01:16:31] You've already said

[01:16:34] something so personal that now

[01:16:36] it's it's wide open to for

[01:16:38] the guy to ask anything.

[01:16:39] Yeah but I also think those

[01:16:40] people probably have pre

[01:16:42] interviewed these people to get

[01:16:43] there.

[01:16:44] I don't think anybody's like oh

[01:16:45] well we happen to be on the

[01:16:46] block where my apartment is

[01:16:48] let's go check it out.

[01:16:50] I wonder or if we just

[01:16:51] happen or if like nine times

[01:16:53] at a 10 he gets nothing

[01:16:55] and then maybe one time

[01:16:56] out of a hundred maybe he

[01:16:58] he gets lucky and the person

[01:17:00] pays 200000 a month in rent

[01:17:02] and we can see their apartment.

[01:17:04] You should have them on.

[01:17:05] Yeah that would be a good idea.

[01:17:07] Jay who's listening to this

[01:17:08] let's get that guy on.

[01:17:10] Want to figure out because

[01:17:11] that's a little bit like what I

[01:17:12] used to do at this this 3

[01:17:14] a.m. idea I used to do for

[01:17:16] HBO in the 90s which is

[01:17:18] you know why are you out of

[01:17:19] three in the morning.

[01:17:20] It was that kind of concept

[01:17:21] and I always think I did

[01:17:24] the first podcast because

[01:17:25] I would put it on the internet

[01:17:26] these interviews that I

[01:17:28] that's crazy was given

[01:17:29] permission to do so.

[01:17:32] That's cool.

[01:17:33] But Polina Pompliano.

[01:17:35] Thank you.

[01:17:36] It's such a great newsletter

[01:17:37] of the profile.

[01:17:38] I love all of your newsletter.

[01:17:41] Every episode edition

[01:17:43] that comes out.

[01:17:44] I'm always a reader.

[01:17:45] You know you always have at

[01:17:46] least one reader which is me

[01:17:48] as soon as you send it out

[01:17:49] and you also wrote the book

[01:17:50] Hidden Genius about some

[01:17:52] of your more interesting

[01:17:54] profiles.

[01:17:55] And always great to have you

[01:17:56] on the podcast.

[01:17:58] Thank you so much and

[01:17:58] congratulate.

[01:17:59] I don't know if you're

[01:18:00] if you said congratulations

[01:18:01] on on second baby.

[01:18:03] Thank you so much.

[01:18:04] A lot going on these days.

[01:18:06] Yeah like how many how many

[01:18:08] editions do you put out a week?

[01:18:10] One

[01:18:13] one every Sunday and then

[01:18:14] sometimes one every once

[01:18:15] there.

[01:18:16] OK yeah I know I've seen

[01:18:18] more than one a week from

[01:18:19] you and are you going to

[01:18:21] keep like this is this it

[01:18:22] now for life like you're

[01:18:23] going to just do this newsletter

[01:18:25] for life you're making money

[01:18:26] and it's all good.

[01:18:27] Well I just I really love

[01:18:29] the newsletter I have no reason

[01:18:30] to not do it

[01:18:32] but I really enjoy it.

[01:18:33] I've done it for the last seven

[01:18:34] years every single week.

[01:18:35] But now my goal is to

[01:18:37] do more interviews.

[01:18:39] So if anybody listening

[01:18:42] needs you know moderating

[01:18:44] help or is hosting

[01:18:45] something where they need an

[01:18:46] interviewer let me know.

[01:18:48] Very good call to action there.

[01:18:50] Thank you.

[01:18:51] And thanks so much Polina again.

[01:18:52] Thank you.

[01:18:53] Awesome. Thank you so much.