How To Get Anyone To Fall In Love With You

[00:00:00] This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show. So Robin. Yes? Do you think you're in love with me? Oh no. No, I don't think I know.

[00:00:21] I know I'm in love with you as well, and at some point we could tell the story of our first date where I think I fell in love with you before you fell in love with me, but I was definitely a love at first sight person.

[00:00:33] But we were friends for a while. We were friends for over a year or about a year. And I think a lot of people often are in the friend zone with people they are in love with or potentially in love with.

[00:00:49] And while we're talking about romantic relationships, some of the ideas that I'm going to talk about here and that Robin and I are going to talk about here also apply to business relationships, employer-employee relationships. It's not just intimacy is not just about romance.

[00:01:06] Intimacy is how you work with people. It's about your friendships. It's about your relationships within the community. Now, of course, you're not romantically intimate with your boss. At least I hope not. I mean, that does happen if you fall in love with your boss.

[00:01:20] Jay, try not to fall in love with me. But that's not what we're talking about here, although I'll refer to it a little. So there was... And in a separate podcast, Robin and I are going to talk about what your IQ is.

[00:01:37] And I don't mean your intelligence quotient, but the intimacy quotient of your relationships. That's in a future podcast. But this one is specifically a technique to move from the friend zone or let's say employee zone to the... Well, let's just stick with the friend zone for a second.

[00:01:55] The friend zone to the romance zone. And... I could ask, is it possible? I feel like I've tried a million times and it's never possible. Well, let's see how you think after this technique. So, and this is not some pickup scene.

[00:02:11] Like, I'm assuming already that you're not really in a bar or a party and you're meeting someone for the first time. I'm assuming you know somebody, you're on a date and you're trying to figure out how to kind of make...

[00:02:27] On a date, everybody is taking in a ton of information. Like, where is he or she taking me? What does he or she look like? What does he or she smell like? What does he or she... Kind of the external things. What do they do for a living?

[00:02:42] What's interesting about them and their resume? And then, but then there's the more kind of like how you interact, how you make someone laugh and that sort of thing. So this is just kind of one aspect of it.

[00:02:53] But so I was looking at a lot of different research on this and there was a paper with a ton of experiments. If you want to read the original paper, which is hard to read because it's academia, the paper is called The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness,

[00:03:11] A Procedure in Some Preliminary Findings. And it's by the main author is Arthur Aaron from SUNY Stony Brook, but there's also professors from UC Santa Cruz, Arizona State University. There's a bunch of professors who did this research and combined their findings. The main conclusion is that one...

[00:03:30] And I'm quoting them, one key pattern associated with development of a close relationship is sustained, escalating reciprocal, personalistic self-disclosure. So there's a lot of words there. So again, I'm going to break this down. So they look... Not only romantic relationships, but again, friendships,

[00:03:52] let's say you just started a job and you want your boss to notice you more or let's say you're pitching investors or doing sales. So that's what they mean by close relationship is you go from a relative stranger to being closer. And...

[00:04:09] All right, so does it mean it's a lover? Right, but while I'm going to talk about it in the context of romance, because I think that's the most common... I mean, it's not the most common actually and it's not even maybe the most important,

[00:04:21] but I mean, I think people who are in love with each other do what I'm about to suggest automatically. But so that's why they say close relationship among peers. But the key pattern is sustained, meaning it continues over time, escalating means it increases,

[00:04:39] reciprocal means it goes both ways, and personalistic means it's about yourself, self-disclosure, meaning revealing things about yourself. And so escalating means you don't start off with... It's not like you're on the first minute of your first date and you say, let me tell you about the time

[00:04:58] I tried to kill myself. Like that wouldn't be escalating, that would be jumping off the roof. You've escalated too much. Reciprocal means both sides are revealing and of course it's gotta be... Why do you think personalistic is important? Why do you think it has to be self-disclosure

[00:05:17] as opposed to like, oh, here's some interesting facts about life? What do you mean by what was the word self-disclosure? Yeah, it's about you. You're saying things about yourself that are maybe revealing that very few people, only people close to you might know. Trust?

[00:05:33] Yeah, I think trust is a good one. Like, oh, he trusts me. And that's why I think if it escalates too fast, that's a bad sign because whoa, why is this person... I barely know this person, he's trusting me too much.

[00:05:46] Right, yeah, because I always heard that like, oh man, you're revealing yourself too much. You know, you have to like... You want to be an open book at the same time and you want to keep it mystery. A little bit but that's why the escalating is important.

[00:05:58] Start off small and if they're... And kind of encourage them... When you start off small also, it's easier to encourage... And by the way, we're going to get to the actual 36 questions that this study uses to get people closer. So and then we'll see how they escalate.

[00:06:15] I think the key is you get someone to say, oh, well we'll see some of the questions but if someone starts off small, then their brain tells them, oh, I am the type of person who reveals personal things to this almost stranger.

[00:06:30] And so as their brain gets comfortable with that, then it's possible to escalate. So yes, this is a technique but I think the other thing too is that you're spending something. When you reveal something about yourself, like you just said, Jay, people even say,

[00:06:46] oh, keep things close to the vest. You're spending a little bit of your mystery advantage in order to get this vulnerability advantage and I think people are afraid to do that. So that's important. Yeah, it's funny when you said the last words, escalating, that also remind me

[00:07:03] what Chuck Palinick said the other day. It's like never start your book with the most important stories. Right, yeah and you know what? I had to think about that because I see, I know of a lot of writers who do start with their most important stories

[00:07:18] and I think often in a book, I mean I can think of many, many examples where people do start with their most important stories. So I'm still not entirely sure about that but perhaps the most meaningful stories, yeah maybe that's different than important. So we'll see.

[00:07:37] But there's something else I was thinking, oh it also reminds me of David Litt who came on, he was the speechwriter for President Obama and he talked about how in a good speech you wanna build a ladder of meaning. Like first things that have small meaning

[00:07:54] but everybody can relate to it but they have small meaning and then you get to bigger and bigger meaning. Like the civil rights movement. So he broke down a Martin Luther King speech and Martin Luther King talks about how he was sick

[00:08:07] and this happened and this happened so okay, you care about someone because they're sick and you want them to be better. But then he escalated it until finally he's talking about I have a dream and that's the I have a dream speech.

[00:08:18] So anyway, the important thing is though, they give in this research, they give a list of questions they did on thousands of subjects and they determined that as people who were relative strangers, they made sure people were kind of like on the same page on some big issues.

[00:08:36] That's how they qualify people to be part of the study. So these people weren't, it wasn't like one was a evangelical religious person and the other person was an atheist. They like more or less were similar but they wanted to compare if someone,

[00:08:51] if two people asked these questions compared with two people who didn't ask these questions, who felt closer at the end and the people who asked these questions felt much, much closer at the end. So the idea here is the technique is

[00:09:05] if you're on like a first date or a second date or whatever, try some form of these questions. And by the way they mentioned it's important to do them in order because of the escalating aspect and see what happens. And then one more important thing

[00:09:18] before we go into the questions, this, what they all they measured was if people feel right now more intimate with each other after asking these questions. And obviously if you wanna build sustained intimacy and romance and love and marriage, you kind of have to be vulnerable

[00:09:37] and self-disclosing on a long-term basis. You have to keep watering the plant for the relationship to continue to grow. If there's either growth or death in a relationship. So that's just important to remember. So Robin, how about I will ask you some of these questions

[00:09:53] and I will also answer them. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna keep quiet because I didn't have any partner. Yes, you're the lonely bystander. You're the third wheel. You're the third wheel. There's another set of questions for if it's not a romantic relationship they call it small talk questions.

[00:10:12] So if you're building, so I should have used these whenever I've been in a party and I've been feeling like introverted or awkward, these would have been good for me to know. You still wanna do the same technique, escalate self-disclosure. But you have to start with small talk.

[00:10:26] Like what do you think about the weather sort of thing? But anyway, okay, here's the slips for closeness generating. Slip is a question. Questions for closeness generating. Given the choice of anyone in the world, whom would you want as a dinner guest? You. Good answer. Other than me.

[00:10:53] I would say anyone in history even too. Anyone in history? Yeah. Well, wow. Oh wait, so this is not multi, like you can choose the answer. So it's like something they have to come up with. Yes, it's self-disclosure. If it's multiple choice, it's not self-disclosure. It's test disclosure.

[00:11:13] Oh, that's hard because there's so many people. Yeah, and by the way, it almost sounds like- Probably like Einstein. Yeah, Einstein might be interesting. Why? Just because I think his brain was just so amazing and so he would be so interesting to talk to.

[00:11:31] I wonder if he would be, like or if he was like so interesting because he was constantly thinking in his head. Maybe he wouldn't be interesting to talk to. I think he was very creative. So I would enjoy a creative conversation like that. Yeah, Einstein's a good one.

[00:11:48] Ideas. And so see this is self-revealing but in a small way, like it shows me, oh, you might be attracted to smart people for instance. And so now I'm thinking of my- I definitely am. I'm thinking of my answer.

[00:12:02] And the first one that comes to mind is Jesus, of course, just to see what the hell he was all about. Like did he really- He was just a man. Yeah, but why was he able to inspire, ultimately billions of people?

[00:12:17] Now, but okay, but that almost seems to cliche and Einstein's a good one. Oh, it's funny like- We didn't ask you, Jay. No, but Jay who would- I got it. I'm just teasing. Who would you pick, Jay? Cause this is more kind of thing.

[00:12:33] This would be bad, but this would be bad. It's almost, I wouldn't say offensive but I would love to have a dinner with Genghis Khan for some reason. Oh, Genghis Khan? Cause we're all descended from him. No, but you know what? That's an interesting one because

[00:12:49] this is a person who without really, I mean there was no fancy, I mean there was big armies back then but they didn't have any fancy weapons or anything like that. And he essentially conquered all of Asia. I don't know if he got up to Europe

[00:13:01] but he did conquer all of Asia and from China to the Middle East. I'm just curious, like you live in such a cold country, you have nothing and why would you have such a big ambitious? Because like back however, a thousand years ago, I assume there's no internet.

[00:13:18] You don't know what's out there. Like how do you know you'll be able to do all this thing and what gives you the idea to do all this thing? You know what I mean? It's just curious. Yeah, like why would he feel the need

[00:13:29] to basically conquer the world at that time? Like why not just have a pleasant life with your family and relax? Yeah, because you always talk about like, if someone do something because they got hurt by some sort of someone or something before,

[00:13:45] like I wonder what he got hurt before. Maybe he didn't like his home life and he figured, okay, well I could rape and pillage all the time. That seems like for him that seemed like a better life. So hold on. I mean like there's something they must have,

[00:14:02] he must have like, you know, like see or something that he might have seen or he might have done. They're like, okay, this few girls are, you know, because if you think about it like, like you said, why is the need of conquering and also what?

[00:14:20] And also what his strategies were for conquering. Let's not forget, he was the most successful conqueror in history. I would say in terms of ranking, there's Genghis Khan, there's Alexander the Great who went all the way from let's say Eastern Europe down to India

[00:14:40] and with Persia along the way. There was Charlemagne, not Charlemagne the God who's been on this podcast a couple of times, but Charlemagne the Emperor who was born in 754 AD who basically conquered and unified Europe. It's probably the only time before and since that Europe's been fully unified.

[00:14:59] Maybe there's Attila the Hun who was with his, you know, tribes were able to conquer the Roman emperor which had lasted for, you know, 800 years about. What other successful conquerors were there? You know, Napoleon took, you know, both of them.

[00:15:15] I don't want to say Hitler was a successful conqueror because he really wasn't, but... He's not a conqueror. I don't think he's a conqueror. He's more like a dictator. Yeah, but the one thing about both Napoleon and Hitler messed up strategically, which is interesting

[00:15:28] that Hitler didn't try to learn from Napoleon's mistakes is they both tried to invade Russia and they both basically just lost their shit in Russia. Yeah, well, I think the only one that we mentioned that successfully conquered Russia, it's gonna get scum because it's right there.

[00:15:47] Right, but Russia wasn't unified at the time. Yeah, it wasn't unified at the time. I mean, Russia's technique, Russia almost is the best defender because their technique is just to withdraw and withdraw and withdraw and eventually the Russian winter gets everyone. They have the terrain advantage, right?

[00:16:05] That's what you call it, geographical advantage because it's so cold out there. Yeah, you know, it's like I'm going through all the people. First off, having a podcast is almost like it's like I get to answer this question all the time because whoever I have on my podcast

[00:16:18] is someone I've dreamt of having dinner with. Like, you mentioned Chuck Palinick earlier. I mean, he's one of my favorite writers and I get to talk to him for one, two hours whenever he comes on the podcast. It's like a dream come true or Gary Kasparov

[00:16:33] getting to talk to him about chess for a couple hours. It's great because now you and Chuck, I mean, I don't know how much you guys keep in touch but he likes you a lot. Like he sent you a nice note after the podcast. Yeah, and Robert Green.

[00:16:48] Yeah, and Robert Green is always so interesting and so smart to learn from. So it's like I get to answer, it's like I don't have to answer this question. I get to live it. It's not a dream scenario for me. I've had 900 guests or 1,000 guests on this podcast

[00:17:01] that were all people I could have answered this question with all these astronauts, athletes, writers, Richard Branson, again, Gary Kasparov, all these people I would have... So I'm thinking more historical. Robin picked kind of like an extremely smart person, perhaps the smartest person ever.

[00:17:19] Jay, you picked one of the, probably the greatest conqueror ever. So I'm thinking of someone in the middle and maybe this sounds a little corny but Lao Tzu, the author of The Tao De Ching. Because on the one hand, a lot of people assume Taoism is a...

[00:17:33] And that Lao Tzu was a very spiritual person and Taoism is a spiritual sort of religion. But there's a huge theory that Lao Tzu had nothing to do with the religion or spirituality and that the book, The Tao De Ching is completely a political text

[00:17:48] and he was trying to advise the Chinese emperor at the time how to be a better emperor. So there is that theory that Lao Tzu and the Tao De Ching is totally political. So I would be curious to have dinner with him

[00:18:01] because A, I think The Tao De Ching I've probably read it 500 times. It's useful for anybody to read but there's a lot of insights and depth to it. But I wanna kind of know where it comes from. Nobody really knows much about Lao Tzu.

[00:18:15] So I'd like to have him on the podcast or have dinner with him. So okay, I'm gonna go to the next question. Robin, would you like to be famous and in what way? No. How come? Because I'm private. I don't like, I just, I don't like-

[00:18:49] I think a lot of people think fame though is and I think people are wrong about this but I think people think fame is when everyone loves you and infamy is whatever one hates you. Yeah, you get both when you're famous.

[00:19:03] Yeah, yeah, I think like just pick a random actor like I don't know Matthew McConaughey. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people love him and I'm sure there's a lot of people who hate him or take J.K. Rowling who sold like,

[00:19:19] I don't know, 500 million copies of her books and right now because she's famous a lot of people really hate her because of recent comments. Yeah, so there's lots of jealousy. You're not, it's just you're not gonna live a private life. Yeah, and also one thing I hate about,

[00:19:38] I mean, I'm not answering the questions I just talking about being famous. I hate about once you're being famous whatever you say would be like, oh, you have the responsibility to say this to the public. I'm like, well, you're just a regular person.

[00:19:52] That's true and I am not famous but of course once a day if I'm walking around someone who listened to the podcast will say hello and I'm really grateful for that. Please, if you see me anywhere, say hello.

[00:20:07] I really do love it and every time I go to an airport I run into someone who either reads my books or listens to this podcast and it's very gratifying to me. And I would say initially I thought my answer to this

[00:20:21] would be no but I actually would like to be famous and the reason is I think that's a metric for how many people are enjoying the writing I do or the podcasting I do like, or a product that I made for instance

[00:20:36] which is probably a little bit more rare but I think it's a good way if you're any form of entertainer and a podcaster is an entertainer, a writer is an entertainer even if they think they're a nonfiction writer and they're writing about very serious things

[00:20:52] nobody's gonna read your shit if you don't entertain if you're not interesting. So if I've been a comedian, so I've been a performer I've been a public speaker, so I've been a performer and again writing as a form of performance certainly podcasting is.

[00:21:06] So I have to say just by my actions, even if I said I don't wanna be famous then I do certainly want a huge audience for all of these different things I do I wanna be liked for these things and maybe that's because at heart I was insecure

[00:21:21] when I was a kid I didn't have many friends my parents were gone all the time and maybe I felt like a replacement I'm getting all therapy now but maybe I felt a replacement for that lack of love and attention was oh the attention of the masses

[00:21:37] so I went down this career path. But you gotta take the good with the bad then. Yeah, no it's true. And you have no control over it. I have to say this year has been more bad than good. I mean people love the podcast

[00:21:51] and love my writing and everything but I've certainly, the power of social media has empowered people more than ever to just be hateful and disgusting and despicable and it's been very disappointing seeing who's really your friend and who you are. That's right, I was gonna say plus

[00:22:09] you don't really know it's pretty lonely because you just don't know who's your friend for real like are they using you or do they just really like you for who you are? So when you don't have that fame and no one knows how much money you have

[00:22:25] or you're just a normal person you get true friends because they're not after you for something else. They're just like you for who you are. And you know, I think about it like ever since I started my first business or even before that

[00:22:41] ever since I started managing people almost all of my friends in some way or other I work with and that's not necessarily a bad thing but I don't really have friends the way other people do. It's not like I rarely know my neighbors

[00:22:58] I don't really, I don't do friendly activities like I don't go camping or vacationing with people or anything like that or go to a golf club with my friends. Well now you're gonna do that. We're gonna go camping. We'll see, yeah we'll see.

[00:23:15] I'm introducing you to the real world. Okay here's one, this is a good one. The next question is before making a telephone call do you ever rehearse what you were going to say? No. Jay? Oh wait I do have to answer this.

[00:23:30] Yes, I will, I have to because I am introvert so like I will have to rehearse and then have to rehearse what you reply and they have to rehearse what's my response. Oh no. I used to do that 100% of the time

[00:23:48] but now I don't unless I'm feeling very awkward for some reason. So sometimes if I don't return a call for a long time and then you ever get into that pattern where you don't return a call and then you feel bad

[00:24:00] so that makes you even less wanna return a call. Oh I'll do it tomorrow. And then the next day, oh I don't really want to right now I can't deal with it, I'll do it tomorrow. And then eventually after I've returned the call but it's two months later.

[00:24:11] So I do rehearse those like how am I gonna apologize about this, I feel so bad. So I guess whatever I'm feeling awkward I rehearse. Yeah well the thing is like I have to rehearse this but the funny thing is no matter how much I rehearse

[00:24:24] once I got on the call all the response gonna be different. Yeah, yeah. That's a weird thing. That's the way of it. And then I just have to rehearse how happy how much energy I have to put into it. And Robin I could see why you don't rehearse

[00:24:40] because I feel like you're used to just talking to so many different types of people on the phone. Like you talk to friends, you talk to family you call, I think it's a good practice actually. Like someone said on the podcast the other day

[00:24:53] that they make sure at the end of the day after a hard day of work they call someone they're close to and establish contact and feel that closeness through a phone call. And I think you're one of those types of people and like the opposite of that.

[00:25:08] Yeah, and also Robin's very straightforward. Yes. You know? So if she hasn't called in two months. Yeah. Like Robin what would you say if you hadn't called someone in two months and you feel bad about it how would you respond? I don't think Robin's gonna do that.

[00:25:22] I think Robin's just gonna return the call right away. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Robin's never like missed a call. Or if I forget I'm like, oops, I'm sorry. Yeah, or like, I forgot. See, I tell him the truth.

[00:25:34] Even if I get like just a message from a random person you're always reminding me like did you call that person back yet? Did you call that person back yet? And I'm like, I'm never gonna call that person. Like why would I call that person back?

[00:25:46] Yeah, it's scary. What if the person's like say bad people? But what are you scared of? Well, it's repetitions. For me it's repetition. So why have to first of think that I'm dumb? I'm like a watermelon walking watermelon. See that's your thinking though. Yeah, that's the thing.

[00:26:02] That's I scare myself. I would say when I used to, when I was like in the dating world and I would ask someone out on a date I would rehearse that a little bit before making a phone call. Cause those are scary. Those are really scary.

[00:26:15] Like because how many girls we just will say hi to me? Yeah, particularly if you don't rehearse. Yeah. But you know when you rehearse. Particularly if you're just yourself. I feel like when you rehearse you can tell when someone's rehearsed it. Like I can.

[00:26:31] That's why you get to be a good performer. I know. I can't tell. So that's why I just do it on the fly. So okay next one. When did you last sing to yourself and to someone else? Okay. Well, I'll answer. I feel like I think-

[00:26:48] When was the last time I tried to sing? So I feel like you- First of all, I'll say my answer which is I sing to myself probably every day and often I'm joking around and I sing to you. And that happens like

[00:27:02] either every day or every other day. I feel like we do that with each other all the time. Yeah. That's pretty common. So let me see. Okay. This is a good one. If you were able to live to the-

[00:27:15] And by the way, I'm doing this all in order. So I'm not looking for good ones. We just did- This is number six. If you're able to live to the age of 90 if you're able to live to the age of 90

[00:27:24] and retain either the mind or body of a 30 year old for the last 60 years of your life, which would you want? Body. Yeah. I'm going with body there because- I don't wanna be trapped. I'm planning on being just as smart at 90 anyway. So-

[00:27:39] Yeah, but if you're so like if you chose the mind just think about how tragic that would be like all the things that you wanna do but you can't because you're too old. Yeah, I go for body too because I collect bad jokes.

[00:27:55] So by 90s I have a million bad jokes that I can tell. Yeah. No, I just think in general they're assuming the body they're assuming the mind declines the way the body does. I don't think the mind has to decline particularly if you have a healthy body.

[00:28:10] So I think you're more likely to have a healthy mind if you have a healthy body. So I'll definitely keep the body. Just the science of this. Yeah, if you have dementia just play mahjong. Yeah. No, but mahjong you need to know what the other people are discarding.

[00:28:24] Come on Jay, do I have to teach you about every game? Yeah, but for dementia, like in Chinese saying like if you have dementia, you know just play mahjong it will help. You know what? If you're right. So if you wanna avoid dementia

[00:28:37] it's good to play games or solve puzzles that require some spatial ability which mahjong has and also memory which mahjong very much has as does chess and poker and card games and so on. So that's why older people play bridge all sorts of games.

[00:28:56] Do you have a secret hunch about how you will die? Robin? Not really. I play in my sleep. Yeah, I kind of see that about you. You're like kind of, you're kind of strong like you don't have any weaknesses.

[00:29:17] I feel, I have a secret hunch that I'll have a heart attack not because I have any kind of blood or cholesterol issues or anything but I just think that I take on so many stresses and challenges for myself even when activities for fun like hobbies

[00:29:34] are always extremely stressful. Other people take as a hobby, stamp collecting why would I take stand up comedy as a hobby where you have to like go in front of a bunch of strangers tell jokes and they could literally laugh at you and make fun of you.

[00:29:52] Like why would I do that as a 40 whatever I started doing that in my late forties? Wait, are you saying stamp collecting is not stressful? Have you watched National Trasher? What if they wanted that the stamp that only came out at one time

[00:30:06] they have to go to behind the statue of liberty to find the clue to find it. Maybe, I don't know but there's certainly a lot of hobbies that are not stressful. Like looking in a telescope every day and mapping the universe. I don't know whatever your hobby is

[00:30:20] or just watching football you might get stressed if your team doesn't win but it's not the same as that's like a passive stress whereas when you go on stage or if you play a game of, like let's say your hobby is poker

[00:30:34] you could go to have fun and lose thousands of dollars or if you go play, if your hobby is chess you could play a game in a tournament you could play for five hours and you could be winning the whole time and at the end you lose.

[00:30:48] That's stressful. So I feel like I take on these or you could be an entrepreneur and I take on these challenging situations that are heart palpitating stress. And so I have a secret hunch that some stress related illness is how it's gonna...

[00:31:05] So I wanna get to the other sets so we see the escalation but also I'll just stop with this question number eight but there's 12 questions in this set. Name three things you and your partner appear to have in common. So Robin, what are three things

[00:31:23] you think you and I have in common? Well, we like to talk about our ideas. Yes, that's true. We have a lot of fun doing that. And creating things. That's really fun. Yeah, yeah, we both like creativity. And we both like to watch TV.

[00:31:43] I don't know if that's... You know what? Let's be proud of it. Like watch TV and proud. Like I love... I feel like our generation was the first generation that has basically been exposed to thousands and thousands of stories because of TV. Like our language of storytelling

[00:31:59] is so much greater than prior generations. Like Robin, think of your grandparents. I bet you they could not tell us... Like they have a very old fashioned way of telling us stories. How I remember my grandparents and like we are much better at it

[00:32:12] because we've seen so many plots. Right, that's true. What's another thing though? TV is kind of like... Everybody likes watching TV. We like to go on walks together. Yeah, and walking is very healthy. And we like to travel together. Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

[00:32:30] And we also love experimenting together. Yeah. Everything. And I think our values are similar. Like our views on trust and parenting and relationships. I think our views on money are somewhat similar. Maybe a little different. I think I'm a little more oddly,

[00:32:52] because I've gotten broke so many times I think I'm a little more cautious than you. But... But that's cautious and investing part. I think caution and spending, actually. Because as mentioned in our... Jay, have we even released the How to Be Wrong? I don't know about that.

[00:33:11] I'm wrong podcast because I talk about buying a house. No, yeah, yeah. I would never have bought a house. Yeah, but you like to fly private and I think it's too expensive. So I say go commercial. So I think we balance each other.

[00:33:24] Yeah, maybe we balance each other there. Yeah. Because I think private is just over... It's just, I don't know. I now agree with you on that, but sometimes it's convenient. It's extra as a kid say. It's extra. I'm gonna move to set two, which is supposedly more escalating.

[00:33:43] And I... So is there something that you've dreamed of doing for a long time? Why haven't you done it? Go to space. You really dreamed of going to space? Yep. When you were a kid, did you wanna go to space? Yes.

[00:34:04] When I was a kid, I really wanted to go to space, but now I have no interest. But why haven't you done it then? Because I don't know. I'm not an astronaut. Did you ever think about being an astronaut? Yes. Why didn't you go down that path?

[00:34:20] I'm not great at math. Oh yeah, that will stop me from being an astronaut. That's sort of a shame that you have to be good at math to go into space. But no, it's possible now with Blue Origin. Yeah, but it costs a lot of money.

[00:34:32] By the end of our lives, it'll be possible for anyone to go into space. So I bet you, Robin, at some point, you will go to space. Because that would be the most amazing thing ever. Something I've dreamed of doing for a long time,

[00:35:01] I feel I've done the things I've dreamed of doing. Oh, you know what? I mean, I've done this in the past, but for years... So when I started writing in 1989 or 1990, and I wrote four novels and dozens and dozens of short stories, but that was then.

[00:35:21] And I didn't publish any of them because I was building the skill. But now that I've been writing for 30 years, I really want to write a novel. And I think I haven't done it because I think the real reason I haven't done it,

[00:35:37] now that I'm thinking about it, a lot of it stems from insecurity, that I could put so much effort into something for a year or two and then get it published, which takes another year or so. And then people just might not like it

[00:35:49] or might not read it. The average novel sells like a few hundred copies. And when I write articles or blog posts or whatever, I try to do it in a storytelling fashion, even if it's nonfiction. So I try to be very revealing about myself

[00:36:04] and my failures and times I've been, had hardship and so on. And I get immediate feedback. So I like things, so when you do stand-up comedy, you get immediate feedback. When you play a game of chess, particularly if you play speed chess, you get immediate feedback.

[00:36:20] Even being an entrepreneur, I don't enjoy as much because I don't get immediate feedback. In fact, whenever I've started a business, I like to sell it as quickly as possible to get feedback at least as fast as possible.

[00:36:31] So I think the reason I haven't done lots of things I've dreamt of is I haven't got, one time I dreamt of getting a PhD. I didn't do that because it takes so long. I'm usually, I think I err on the side of doing things

[00:36:45] where I can get immediate feedback and maybe the learning curve is very steep and I could measure success very quickly of the learning curve. Interesting. So Robin, what do you value most in a friendship? Loyalty and trust. When do you know you can't trust somebody?

[00:37:09] When they start talking about somebody else to me. In a good way or a bad way? Bad way. But we talk about people sometimes. That's, that's different. Work-loads loop. Yeah, but yeah, typically you can tell someone gossips when they start gossiping about someone to you.

[00:37:36] That's a big red flag to me. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I definitely value that. I definitely value trust. Loyalty, it's hard to say what you mean by that. Well, when I mean loyalty, I mean like let's say that there's somebody

[00:37:57] that you don't trust in your world of friendships and you are hurt by somebody and another friend sees that they've done that to you. But yet there's still friends with that person. Yeah, though I, you know what? Actually, that's interesting. That's bothered me too with people.

[00:38:22] I would say for me, what I value most in friendship is definitely trust is a big deal. It's gotta be also, you know, I hate to say it, but it's gotta be interesting to me. Like they offer not interesting, but they offer value in my life.

[00:38:40] Like they're there when I need them. They show up for me and I show up for them. So it's always mutual. And I think all, and yeah, they're not fair weather. Like when things are bad, they don't abandon you. I've lost lots of friends that way.

[00:38:55] And I guess also it's not important to me, and it's important I think to say what's not important in this, it's not important to me what someone's political beliefs are. Like I have friends whose political beliefs are all over the place. Now I won't be friends with someone

[00:39:09] who I think is like racist or anti-Semitic or whatever. And I would never be, I don't like being friends with people who I think in general in their lives are dishonest. Like they cheat on people or their criminals. But I think what their political beliefs are,

[00:39:26] as long as I can have a conversation with them about it and it doesn't turn into like a hate, a shouting match. Like for instance, one of my closest friends is my business partner Dan. We don't believe politically on a lot of issues,

[00:39:39] but we're able to discuss them. And we've actually never had like an angry argument in the 22 years we've worked together. So even if we disagree on things. Right. And that's important too, so that we can move forward even through our disagreements.

[00:39:53] So we get this, like if we have disagreements in business, those are important to resolve, but we're able to resolve them after 22 years of having these discussions. Silly to like just only have friends that believe the same way you believe in politically.

[00:40:10] I mean, cause it's not about the person. Like you could have, I mean, I don't care what they believe politically. It's just you enjoyed their friendship and their morals, they're just, I think that's the most important. It's just a person. So I think it's really silly

[00:40:31] to just only be around people that believe the way you believe politically. Yeah, like let's say you're like, let's even take an extreme. Let's say you were in an old age home and you're 90 years old. So it's not like you're gonna,

[00:40:45] you might not even live for the next election where climate change is, you could care about it, but it's not gonna affect you cause you're gonna die soon. And there's a friend in the room next to you or person in the room next to you

[00:40:57] who is fun to play games with. You talk about your memories. You've had similar experiences, but let's say you really believe in climate change and this person really doesn't believe in climate change. It's not like you're gonna say, oh, I can't be friends with that person.

[00:41:10] Right, it's silly. Like who are you gonna be friends with? Like you've got to- You talk about it and you just, I don't know. You just move on to- Or if you talk about it, you could joke around like, oh, you probably, I don't know,

[00:41:20] wanna burn the world down or whatever. Anyway, but I think that's important to me as well. And Jay, what do you value in a friendship? I think I'm similar with James. Like, you show up for me and I show up to you.

[00:41:34] It's the trust and it's mainly the trust actually like Robin said too. So like it's a bit of both of you and I really do appreciate like people that talk down to other people. I lost a friendship, like yeah, he helped me before

[00:41:48] but like every time he will like talk down to me, he treat me like, you know, I'm second class person. You know, like he's like the big man in the house and I'm the small man in the house. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. So this is set two.

[00:42:04] We had gone through set one but these are just the last one or two questions were from set two which is escalating intimacy and notice like as opposed to like, oh who would you want as a dinner guest? Who would you like to have as a dinner guest?

[00:42:16] This is more like what do you value in a friendship? You know, is there something you've dreamed of doing? This is more really about a deeper layer of you that you're asking about. And so I'm gonna skip to set three. There's like 12 questions in set two.

[00:42:31] Like here's a question. How do you feel about your relationship with your mother? That was in set two. We're not answering any of those? No, no, I'm just saying them. What roles do love and affection play in your life? What is your most terrible memory, blah, blah, blah.

[00:42:44] But okay, set three, this is supposed to be the highest, maybe not the most escalating it'd be but this is the next level of escalation. This is what they, this set was the final set in their experiment that they did. Make three true we statements.

[00:43:02] For instance, we are both in this room feeling. So you could see how now it's going from something really personal and deeper about you to now the escalation is now it's about us. We're like in this together now. So make three true we statements.

[00:43:22] Okay, so we are both in this room feeling excited about our podcast. Yeah, and I would say like on our first date I think we were both in that restaurant feeling we wanted to talk more about each other than about the original topic which was investments. Yeah.

[00:43:42] All right, I'll go to another question. No, I have to say three. So you can see how these are escalating. Tell your partner like let's say it's a date tell your partner something that you like about them already. So like on that first date I liked about

[00:43:57] well I liked how pretty you were. I liked how I liked your values on parenting and I liked the you had been through some really tough experiences and really I've gotten through them in amazing ways and I really admired you for that.

[00:44:16] Yeah, so I mean the same made that first night I really enjoyed the fact that you were a good listener that you were very smart, very intelligent and very kind and real. Yeah, okay here's another one. This is a funny one given what's going on with Dave Chappelle

[00:44:41] but what if anything is too serious to be joked about? I don't wanna answer that one right now but here's an interesting one. When did you last cry in front of another person? Me? Yeah. About four days ago in front of my son.

[00:44:59] Really? What did you cry about? Oh he was just telling me some things that he felt when he repatriated last year and it made me sad that he actually felt that way. Yeah, so I mean that is very revealing it shows what kind of mother you are

[00:45:16] it shows you how you have empathy with people and so on and I think probably the last time I cried in front of another person was in front of you. Yeah. I'm probably a cry baby in front of you. No. You hardly ever cry.

[00:45:32] I remember when it was like overwhelming. I cry in front of you too. Yeah, you cry in front of me. I remember when it was just overwhelming like everything that was going on with this stupid article which I keep talking about but I gotta move past it

[00:45:50] but this is the last time I think I cried really in front of you was like I couldn't even believe so many people were like Jerry Seinfeld one of my one time heroes was writing an article just insulting me not even addressing the issues.

[00:46:05] He doesn't even know you. Yeah and people I did know who I had helped were trashing me on Twitter and whatever. But those aren't your friends. You thought they were and that's the sad part. Yeah, that was the sad part actually to me

[00:46:20] and the reality is I've had so many instances like that like really you are now trashing me that it just it was a little overwhelming because I hadn't happened before but that was a little overwhelming and yeah. It's good that you know that now.

[00:46:36] It's good that you know who your really friends are because basically just the two of you people on this call. No, that's not true. I've actually met a lot of wonderful people through this podcast too. Yeah, you do have friends, true friends. Yeah, I have.

[00:46:51] You don't need so many true friends. I mean just you just need a few friends. That's all you need. Yeah. This is your inner circle. Here's some other sample questions we don't have to answer them. Share with your partner an embarrassing moment in your life.

[00:47:04] You know that's very revealing. I've got a lot of those. If you were to become a close friend, please share what would be important for him or her to know complete the sentence. I wish I had someone with whom I could share X

[00:47:18] of all the people in your family, whose death would you find most disturbing? Why? Obviously any of our kids. Would be share a personal problem and ask for advice on how he or she might handle it. So again, these are like very,

[00:47:35] not only revealing but you're including the other person. So that's the escalation. So the first one is of the who would you want to have dinner with variety? The second set is telling things about yourself, that what's your dreams and stuff like that.

[00:47:53] The third thing is either saying something embarrassing that you would normally say about yourself like when was the last time you cried or they're about us. Like tell me how you feel about me. So that's like the next level of escalation.

[00:48:07] And again, the key always is to have nonstop. So if you're on a date or you're in an intimate situation or with a potential stranger or a potential romantic partner, escalating intimacy like this is very powerful and this scientific study, and there's been other studies like this,

[00:48:31] they show that it works. And again, the paper is the experimental generation of interpersonal closeness and they kind of give all these questions there which you don't have to use these questions but they kind of give a sense of the kind of escalation.

[00:48:43] Now what if it's just small talk at a party? Not with somebody you're gonna be a romantic relationship with so maybe it's a boss or a coworker or someone you're selling or a neighbor. So there's a different set of questions for that

[00:49:01] and I'll just read quickly some of the questions. We don't have to answer them right now. So here's in the first part, the beginning of small talk. When was the last time you walked for more than an hour? Describe where you went and what you saw.

[00:49:16] What was the best gift you ever received? Do you read a newspaper often and which one do you prefer? What is a good number of people to have in a student household? If you could invent a new flavor of ice cream, what would it be?

[00:49:28] So I always feel like I don't know how I would bring those questions up. Like how would you bring up the ice cream one? What's a new flavor? If you could invent a new flavor of ice cream, what would it be? I just say that.

[00:49:40] Okay, how about you guys answer that question? What's your favorite ice cream flavor and then say well if you were to make one up what would you make up? What would you make up? Me? Uh... I feel like all the ice cream... Ooh, you know what's really good?

[00:49:57] Skittle ice cream. What? Skittle. You know skittles? Skittle ice cream. I've never had a skittle. That would be good. Yeah, skittle ice cream. Every bite, every lick on the ice cream would be tangy and different flavor. Yeah. That's a good idea.

[00:50:12] I feel like I would want waffle ice cream. Like ice cream that tastes like the flavor of waffles. Or you know what? How about plantain vanilla ice cream? Plantain. That sounds greasy. Well, that's... Let's say you could have the flavor without the grease.

[00:50:29] But maybe the flavor includes the grease. I would have a bitto honey ice cream. What's that? Bitto honey. I like that candy. What's bitto? Bitto honey. It's an old-fashioned candy. You know how that candy I was eating? By the side of the bed and all those packages.

[00:50:50] Oh, what? All the wrappers were on the floor and everything. How do you spell it? B-I-T-T and then O, I think. And then honey. So good. Or sugar daddy. Oh, bitto honey. Oh, honey. Yeah, I had to Google today. It's a bit, bitto dash o dash honey. Yep.

[00:51:15] Let me see. Remember sugar daddy and sugar babies? I never had any of these. So bitto honey... Maybe they shouldn't have that name anymore. That would probably be canceled. They'd probably get canceled right away. Sugar daddy. It's funny, bitto honey was started in 1924

[00:51:32] by the shooter Johnson Company in Chicago. I wish we could buy that. It was a new kind of candy bar consisting of six pieces wrapped in wax paper and then packaged in a cover wrapper. And the candy consists of almond bits embedded in a honey-flavored taffy

[00:51:46] which makes for long chewing candy. I don't like that. I love it. I feel like I'm chewing forever and stuff like that. Then it was merged into the Ward Candy Company of New York City in 1969 which had, they made Oh Henry, Raisinettes and stuff like that.

[00:52:01] And then they made a chocolate-favorite version called Bitto Chocolate. Oh, I never had that. And then they were acquired by Terson Company in 1981. And then they, Terson Company sold bitto honey to Nestle in 1984. And in 2013, Nestle sold bitto honey to Pearson's Candy Company.

[00:52:24] And then in 2020, a few months ago, Spangler Candy Company bought it. So it's funny how all the different mergers and stuff that the lifespan of a brand goes through. So, but anyway. So that's in the first level of Smalltalk

[00:52:43] and other ones are, do you like to get up early or stay up late, blah, blah, blah. So you, oh no, sorry, that was in the second one. Another first one is what's the best restaurant you've been in? Describe the last pet you owned? What's your favorite holiday?

[00:52:57] Blah, blah, blah. Set two where it escalates. Set two where it escalates. Describe the last time you went to the zoo or do you like to get up early or stay up late or what did you do this summer? So it's a little bit more,

[00:53:12] it requires more storytelling in set two. Because like all what was the last thing you went to do? Why'd you go? What would you go with? It leads to other questions as opposed to like name of a flavor of candy you would invent.

[00:53:27] And then set three is what was your high school like? Describe your mother's best friend. How often did you get your hair cut? So it's a lot more personal. Do you think left handed people are more creative than right handed people?

[00:53:44] And then I guess that again leads to stories. Like if you're, oh my brother is left handed and he does this and so it leads to more stories. Do subscribe to any magazines, which at first sounds kind of very small talkish

[00:53:56] but then you realize, oh if this person just respond, just subscribes to more magazines and gun magazines that there's stories behind this or it's very revealing. So what foreign country would you most like to visit? Actually, let me ask both of you because you both have traveled internationally

[00:54:16] and Jay grew up internationally and Robin you spent like 15 years traveling living abroad. What country now that you've never been to would both of you like to visit? I think Robin should go first. Robin has more stories to tell because she's been to more country than me.

[00:54:34] I'd say maybe Argentina, somewhere in South America or actually really where I would like to go is the South Pole. Oh yeah. Oh wow. Is it a South Pole for country? Well, it's sort of a region. Yeah, it's a South Pole.

[00:55:00] And I would like to go on an ice breaker and go do exploration stuff. That's so brave. I just want to go to Japan and eat all the sushi. Yeah, I would like to go to that restaurant. That's a great place.

[00:55:17] I would like to go to that restaurant featured in the documentary Hero Dreams of Sushi. That looks like a good restaurant. Yeah. James, you would love Japan too. Yeah, Japan is great. Robin is like, I want to be explorer. Jay is like, I just want to eat.

[00:55:30] Yeah, Robin either wants to go to outer space or 10,000 feet underwater. I've been all over the land of this world and I've been diving everywhere, so underwater. So now I want to explore space. Is there such a thing as volcano diving?

[00:55:50] Like can you go where a suit and go in the... No, I don't think so. You can get close to it. Yeah, you can. But I don't think you can get them. Even though when you get closer, you have to be very cautious and very protective.

[00:56:02] You can go over helicopter and you can go close, which would be fun too. Yeah, the point of all this again is this is based on some research in the experimental generation of interpersonal closeness done by a bunch of professors. They took thousands of subjects

[00:56:18] and had them either ask these questions or not. And their point was is that to establish quick intimacy, you need to, and I'll just read their exact statement again, okay, to establish quick intimacy, you need to develop, you need to create sustained escalating, reciprocal, personalistic self-disclosure.

[00:56:44] And they come up with a set of questions, whether in a romantic situation or a non-romantic situation. They come up with a set of questions that are to be done in order because they involve the escalating and ultimately you're revealing like very deep things about yourself.

[00:56:57] Like, oh, what are you most scared to reveal to somebody that might be a potential top escalation? And the beginning escalation might be, oh, why do you like this restaurant? Or that sort of thing. So if you want the full list of questions, I'll write it down.

[00:57:14] Maybe I'll put it on my LinkedIn newsletter, which you could find by finding me on LinkedIn at James Altucher. Or your new notepad. Oh yeah, or we haven't launched it yet, but we're about to launch a project called Notepad where you get to keep track of your idealists.

[00:57:29] So more on that in the future. Meanwhile, stay tuned for another upcoming episode where Robin and I will find out our intimacy quotient. We will take the IQ test and I will show you guys what the intimacy quotient test is like so you can determine in your relationships

[00:57:48] how intimate you guys are. When we were recording the podcast, it would see Jay sitting in the corner just crying. Yeah, Jay's gonna be sad. There's any lonely young women out there who want a good person in their lives. Jay has gone from homeless beggar.

[00:58:09] I just saw one, I mean he didn't even, he would just grunt. He like grew up with the wolves. And I took him and I said, you could be an audio engineer, young man. And he went from audio engineer to super producer of podcasts.

[00:58:23] And it's really been amazing. I traded my sense of smell to the sense of hearing. I'm not sure what that means, but yeah. So ladies out there, write in or tweet that you love the podcast and Jay always checks the Twitter. Yes, thank you.

[00:58:45] And once again, if you like what you heard here, please follow this podcast so you don't miss one. Robin, thanks for coming on. Also tell me if you like Robin because we all want validation of our choices. And see you guys next time. Thank you guys. Thanks, bye.