Writing Thrillers and Unraveling Geopolitics | Brandon Webb

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Brandon Webb is what I call a slasher. He is an ex-Navy Seal. He ran the Seal Sniper Training

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Program, which if you ever saw the movie American Sniper, that guy graduated from Brandon's school.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Set up a very successful website with millions of monthly users that focuses on military

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: news, foreign policy news, and so on. That's at softrep.com, S-O-F-R-E-P.com. He's written

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: some great nonfiction books about his Seal experience and also a book about how to combat

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: fear. More recently, he's the author of a series of amazing thriller books. They're like best-selling

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thriller books that are being optioned for movies and video games and so on. The latest

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: one just came out, Blind Fear, and Brandon comes on and I basically ask him, A, what's

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: advice he would give me if I wanted to write a thriller or if any of you wanted to write

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: a thriller? B, what's going on in Russia, Ukraine, China? C, what's... He's got a very

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting next book planned about mental management and described some techniques there.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So without further ado, here's Brandon Webb.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_00]: James Altiger Show.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Brandon Webb, welcome back to the show. Let's pour right into it. You just came out with a

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: new thriller yesterday.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Blind Fear, which is book three in the Finn series, and it's kind of a blended

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: military and psychological thriller. This Blind Fear takes place in Vieques and Puerto

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Rico. So if this... Our main protagonist, Finn, is kind of hiding out there trying

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to find out the information about the real killer that he's been framed for this terrible

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: war crime. So he's hiding out in Vieques and then stumbles upon another issue that he

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: got. I don't want to have too many spoilers, but...

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: If you go to the Amazon page, up the very first review it says there's missing children

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: involved. And that's not always a spoiler. It happens essentially in chapter one.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more of what goes on with the missing kids that he uncovers, that gets interesting.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: There's submarines involved. It's really cool. And to essentially add to the tenseness of

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the situation, there's this massive superstorm bearing down on the island, this hurricane,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like one of those ones that comes along every 50-100 years. And so it's like the final

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: action sequences. It's a storm. It's just bearing down. It's landed and it's just reeking havoc.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's good. I'm really excited about the series. We were talking earlier. We

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: optioned it to WIP Studios, so hopefully...

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: What does that mean? Who's WIP Studios?

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe a subsidiary of Creative Arts Agency. They basically package projects and sell them

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to whether it is HBO, Disney, Apple. They sell to all the good streamers.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a very aggressive option package that my agent at WME put together.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So essentially there's a fuse, a lit fuse on the option, a very short one.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And they've cut a deal with our production partner, Ben Smith at Captivate Entertainment.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have a really good screenwriter, Jim Danger Gray. This is nicknamed Danger.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Funny, but he's an amazing writer. So we think that it's going to get made. That's the point I'm

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to make. Now what about your earlier novels? Are they optioned as well?

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I have The Killing School, which was a nonfiction book about the Navy Seal Sniper

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: program that I used to run. That is being made into a video game as we speak with Maximum

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Games. And that's been an amazing project to work on. I have a call with those guys once a week.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I actually went to Bucharest, Romania to work with the dev team. I took them to Sniper range.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've got that project. The game should come out next year, end of next year.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And what's the deal? How do you make money off that?

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I get a revenue share. So it's a big deal. And it's interesting. I've had a little bit

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of exposure to Hollywood and now the video game industry. And the game industry is so much different

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that they really want to get it right, where Hollywood will go, eh, we know that's technically

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the way they would do it in the military, but we're going to do it this way because it's

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: bigger explosion and more glamour. The game guys are like, no, we need to get this right.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the players are going to know this has to be authentic. And then also an interesting thing,

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they have me write an entire plot with this guy, Cade Rylan I made up in this whole plot

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: of this seal sniper in Iraq who you're watching. He's watching as these between missions,

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: these videos of his wife and daughter. And then halfway through the game,

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you realize that his wife and daughter have been killed in a car accident by a drunk driver.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when you're getting to the final mission, you realize, oh,

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: shit, this is not the final mission. The guy that's been feeding you the US Intel is actually

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: an Iranian bad guy who's the real bad guy. So there's like these plot twists and then you

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: have to deal with the bureaucracy of the military not letting you kind of take this guy out.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: They're saying no, don't take the shot because the CIA is embarrassed. So I wrote all this

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like crazy plot and they're like, we love it man. It's like we want this like realistic

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: storyline because you see now the games are getting so good that they're getting movies.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What was the recent one? I forget there was on HBO, The Last of Us, right? So

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, that was a game, right?

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the storytelling is really getting good and I'm having more fun

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: working on the game than I ever did on Hollywood production.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. So why do you think that is? Why do you think the game industry is basically

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: more real than the movie industry?

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a culture issue. I think that you look at the kind of culture of people that work

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in gaming, they're gamers themselves. They're oftentimes coders and they're geeks. They want

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: to get it right. And that I really respect. Where Hollywood, they're just like, whatever,

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: we're just going to blow this up. It's like I wrote a soft rep review for Guy Richie's

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: new film, The Covenant, which is a great, he did a great job telling the story of this like

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: betrayal of America to the interpreters that we left behind when the US pulled out.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's just so many cheesy things that they got wrong on them on the military, the technical

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: side, like this huge C-130 gunship, which is an incredibly powerful machine. It never

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: flies in the daytime. It's just everybody knows it always flies at night. It flies at

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: 20,000 feet. And here Guy Richie has it screaming 1500 feet above ground level in the daylight,

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: just freaking mowing down bad guys. I was like, why not just have the sun go down and then the

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: plane comes? Because you could have accomplished the same thing. But that's kind of stuff drives me

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: crazy. And all the other veterans out there crazy where enlisted guys are calling each other

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: sir. That's like such a break of protocol. You call them by their rank, like Sergeant or

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Gunny or Petty Officer. Really? So like a private doesn't call a lieutenant sir?

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No, he would. A lieutenant would be an officer. But a private wouldn't call a,

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like say the Marine Corps, wouldn't call a Gunny Sergeant, Sir, he would say,

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: yes, Gunny Sergeant so on. So just like these little things that, you know, they're little,

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but they make a, it's a huge difference, right? It'd be like, like you said, all these AI,

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: we're talking about the AI wannabes, you can just tell they don't have the base of knowledge.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, the point is that the Hollywood doesn't really care. I've been on a set where I

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like, look, that doesn't happen. They're like, yeah, yeah, we know, but we're just, we don't care.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Aim guys do. Like they're very, very, very much paying attention to detail.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I describe in the intro that you're a slasher, meaning you're a name, you know, X Navy SEAL

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: slash you ran their sniper school slash you have a military news company, which I want to

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about slash you've written a bunch of nonfiction books about in part based on

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: your SEAL experience. And now you're like a thriller writer and optioning for movies,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: games and so on. I sort of feel like this is the general trend of careers, which is that

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: some things you do because you did them as you're younger and it becomes your career and so on.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So the early part of your career, but then you sort of evolve into doing more and more things

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and creating income streams from the things you love. Yeah. Right now, what do you love the most?

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I love creating and I'm being very creative right now with, with software up the news company

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that I run, because we're really integrating AI into our research. All of our images now are

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: generated on mid journey. So that's always been a huge challenge is how do you find the right

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: image that's copyright free that ties into a headline? Now we can just tell mid journey.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I can paste in, you know, headline and say create an image that's that supports this

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: headline boom. And I get just insane imagery. So I'm excited about that, but I, you know,

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I like creating stuff. So as long as I'm able to kind of create, I mean, I decorated my

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: apartment by myself. You know, it's like, I like interior design, you know?

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You're doing this thriller series. It's interesting because

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you were a nonfiction writer, but now you're writing these thriller plots.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I do find it difficult to go from nonfiction writing to plot driven writing. And here you have this,

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: this latest thriller, Blind Fear. You have your Jack Reacher is that the character or your Jack

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Reacher type character in, in Finn, but you're combining all these tropes like missing children,

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you're accused of a crime and there's no one around to defend you and you have to find

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the killer yourself and hurricane. It's like you took three different top box office movies and

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: combine them through in the Navy SEAL stuff and boom, that gets you like a plot. I feel like there's

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: two styles of writing a thriller, one where there's a cliffhanger where you don't know who the killer

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is or the kidnapper or whatever. And every time you think, you know, you're surprised and it's

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: someone else and then you're surprised again and so on. Or you kind of know, but just

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the character isn't so much trouble sorting to save himself throughout the, your cliffhanger

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: becomes more about the character saving himself as opposed to figuring out who the killer is.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Which style kind of drives your plot? I think we have both actually like we have this really

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting reveal at the end that I think will take people by surprise. The same way are

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the first in the series, Steel Fear was everyone, you could have thought the killer was three or

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: four different people in Steel Fear and at the end you're like, oh my god, I can't believe it was

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: that person. But we do have that going on in this book. You know kind of who the bad person is,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: what they're doing because everybody kind of knows but no one knows the real identity. And

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: when the identity gets revealed it's kind of a, it's definitely a moment you're like, whoa,

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that's crazy because it's a very prominent character on the island. So that and Finn is in

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: this like terrible situation where the government's chasing him, he's AWOL, they think that he's

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: killed innocent people and part of this war crime and he's been framed so he's dealing

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: with all this and then he stumbles into this, you know, he carries a guy that cares and he

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: makes friends with this old man in Viecas and his grandkids as well and in one day the grandkids

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: go missing and he kind of gets, he's like, okay, well I just can't sit back and do nothing. And

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: so he kind of follows the breadcrumbs and it gets involved in a whole bunch of other things

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and at the same time he's being hunted by the US government and then this big storm

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: bearing down. And then also it's one of the things I think we did right was it's hard to hide in

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: today's modern society, like everything's track, you get cell phone signal, you have IP addresses,

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it's very hard to kind of cover your tracks. And so I think we do a pretty good job

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: creating a believable scenario where he does leverage some experts on the dark web to kind of

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: not only figure stuff out but also cover his own tracks. But anyway, the fiction stuff is fun,

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but I also feel this tug of nonfiction and I just wrote a proposal which I had chat GPT write

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: your recommendation and I emailed it to you, right? I said write in the voice of James Altucher

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: to support this kind of book that I'm writing and I just gave a very good prompt and boom,

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it spit out what I sent you. But it's a book about what something I really,

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel strongly about and I taught it, I live it, I've used it on my kids was mental management

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and how do you sustain a strong mental program throughout your entire life? Like what are the

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: characteristics and components and habits? And so that tentatively is the book that I sent you

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: on mental management. Give me a technique that isn't an obvious one. I need better mental

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: management. Just making a habit of writing a mantra every day, like I do a grateful journal

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in the morning and I have my current mantra that I run, which basically you're controlling self-talk

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because we all deal with fear. We have stuff that comes up in our lives, we have self-doubt

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and so when you hear that voice kind of creeping up in your head, you're like, okay,

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I need like this is my current situation and I need to counter this narrative that in my head

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: by with this powerful affirmation and you just hammer down on it every day you write it

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and it makes a big difference. Like what if, let's say you're writing your book

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and halfway through you're like, oh man, this sucks. I just read some old chapters and

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what am I doing? How I'm such a loser. How could I be a writer? So A, you notice you're

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: saying this but then what do you do? Well then I would write just a counter narrative

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to that because I mean, look, you and I have been there. We've had those conversations of

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: self-doubt with ourselves and so you just have to go, okay, I know I'm not that way and

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: even if I don't believe it, I got to write it. I got to start and then make yourself

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: believe it and that's something that dealing with, and this is something that I learned

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was writing the program. We had all these consultants come in and one of the

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the best guys I work with was a gold medalist named Lanny Basham and he developed this program

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: before there was a thing called positive psychology. He was using these techniques on

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: himself to win the gold medal. I mean, this is a guy that, I mean, he was on the army shooting

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: team. He won silver in Munich because he just crumbled. He said my mental game fell apart

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because he was getting heckled by these Russians on the bus and they got inside his head. He was

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: already a world champion at this point. He was kind of like a shoe in for the gold medal and he's like,

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I completely collapsed. I came back, talked to all these sports psychologists that were just,

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, this is in the 70s at the time they were just trying to make him okay with being

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: number two and he's like, no, that's not what I'm after here. So he interviewed all the

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: champions on the Olympic team, like all the gold medalists and created this program for

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: himself encapsulating like all their techniques and a lot of it was visualization, self affirmation

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and eventually you believe that you're the best and if your gear breaks, you're still going to beat

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody. I always feel like this kind of stuff. There's a tinge of bullshit in it and I know,

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: by the way, I know it works. I've done podcasts where there's like scientific

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: research that self-talk is really important and works. I just, I have a hard time doing it

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: like let's say I'm in the middle of some competition and I'm not doing that well.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard not to feel like a loser. Yeah, I know. And I think that's where, you know, having some

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe pre-planned narratives where you can just kind of pull it out and go, okay, if I get in

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: this situation here's my game plan. Like you just have it in your pocket. When you look at

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Phelps one, I think it was 100 meter final in China. He jumped into water and his goggles

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: flooded, but he had already like rehearsed for this contingency. He'd visualized and rehearsed

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: for what he would do. So he just started counting his strokes and he just knew when to do flip turns.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Now where most people, you're swimming in the final of an Olympic event, imagine your freaking

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: goggles flood. It's like your worst nightmare, but he's like, yeah, okay, I trained for this

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and he ended up setting a world record with flooded goggles because he had done the visualization

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and trained for these contingencies, right? Because shit will go wrong. And you just have to plan

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for it and develop these contingencies and rehearse for it. And I think you could do

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the same thing in chess like imagine yourself in those situations and go, okay, what are some

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: things that I could do to kind of yank myself out. And one of the things is when you're having,

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: like we all get into these slumps and the thing is stop playing. Like when I get it, if I lose,

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard to do too, right? Cause you and I both play chess. Yeah. When you're on a losing streak,

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard to just go, I gotta stop. What about if I'm in a tournament though where you can't

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: really stop? Well, then I think that's where the challenge comes in where you have to,

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to figure out, okay, what can I do to kind of yank myself out of this,

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: out of the slump? And maybe it's, you know, watching a bunch of winning games or remembering

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like all the games that you've won. Cause the thing when you're practicing and you're doing,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you're having a bad day, right? You just got to, the right thing to do is to stop because

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you're reinforcing failure. Right. And when you're on a run, you just want to keep going

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's, that's that kind of positive reinforcement. I mean, also the way that we

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: talk to ourselves matters and the way that we talk, we coach and teach matters. That was one

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of the biggest corrections I installed when I was running the sniper program was negative

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: teaching over positive. I said, guys, don't point out mistakes. These guys are beginner

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: snipers. If you're telling them all these mistakes, you know, guys that are three

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: positions down are going to hear it. And then all of a sudden you're programming these bad habits

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: in their brain and they didn't even know existed. So just give them the corrective procedure.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: If a guy is flinching on the trigger, which is very common, right? You pull the trigger

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're just anticipating. And the way to check that is you put a dummy around in the gun

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and when they pull, if it's good, he's like, click and the guy doesn't move or it's like,

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and so that's okay. This guy's flinching, but we would never tell that don't flinch.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We would say, look, slow down. Watch your breathing. Go through your mental checklist.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Make a nice smooth trigger pull. That would be the corrective procedure or not. Hey,

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: man, you're flinching because when you say that all the guy is thinking about now,

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: he's stressed out. He's got an instructor telling him he's flinching and all he's

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking about is flinching. And now everyone on the firing line is thinking about flinching

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and it just creates this freaking COVID virus that spreads on the firing.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just those, but this is a good idea of pre-planning all the possible things that could

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: go wrong in a live competitive situation. Like I'm thinking particularly for Chesley,

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you got into a losing position. Okay, what do I do? Maybe I lost a bunch of games in a row.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm back in my room. Okay, what do I do? Yeah, like pre-plan and visualize all these

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: things, what you would do. Maybe I didn't sleep so much. What do I do? Yeah. I think

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that's good to kind of then sort of fall back on some memory where you have confidence and kind

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: of just like repeat and visualize that to yourself. That's a strong technique.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And my reason for writing this book is, I've been through hell, right? I've personally

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: been through a lot of adversity and I feel like the training I had as a sniper around

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: this mental management has really helped me deal with a lot of things that life has thrown at me

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and I see other people and look, Phelps is one of the greatest swimmers in the world,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but he suffered from massive depression and kind of what is he next? If not an Olympic swimmer,

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: which was his whole life, what's his new identity? And a lot of SEALs go through that.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: They're on top and now they're out in the real world and SEAL stuff

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: with $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks, right? They just, they're like, who the hell am I

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: now? And a lot of guys don't, they fall off the cliff and I see it in finance, these other,

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's sport, professional sporting careers, but what can we do as humans to kind of sustain

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: this high degree of mental management that will get us through a lifetime so we don't dip,

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, or the dips are much smaller and they're not just like catastrophic, right?

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we've seen these people that are, you know, whether it's Britney Spears, Michael Phelps,

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: these people that are like Tiger Woods at the top of their game one minute and then it's just

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: catastrophic the next. And it's like how do you develop these habits for life that kind of,

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that will sustain superior performance no matter what you do, whether you're a parent,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: business leader, an executive, whatever. But that's the book right next because I think

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a good one. Yeah, I think I can't wait to read that one and talk more about it. I mean,

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a key thing also is like people often ask me like, oh, you went broke and then you bounced back,

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, how did you get to the point where, you know, things are stable again.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They're never actually stable. That's the myth. Like things are always going wrong,

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but like your ability to deal with them and bounce back faster gets better. Yeah. And or the

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: ability to kind of take the good with the bad, like some things get bad permanently, you know,

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe have a health issue that's chronic or whatever. Like to be able to understand that

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: this happens in life and there's positive moments that can happen until you're old and the moment

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you die. Like you could still find the positive in all these things. And that's the thing. It's

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: not like solving the problem and like in a movie and then life is good forever. Exactly. Yeah,

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it has to just continue. Exactly. And that's why I think developing a habit, which I think I have

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: done a pretty good job of incorporating this stuff into my daily life. It's it continues to get me

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: through the tough times, whether you know, my family member has ALS or, you know, stuff,

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: it's life, all business life. Oh, nobody gets out unscathed, right? So that's the book

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: tentatively is invisible dominance. But that's, that's what I'm most excited about writing next.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think it's a, it's an important book. It's unique and it's a story that I can tell

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: well with experience to back it up. So yeah, thank you for the GPT blurb.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: No problem. Virtual James is happy anytime to give GPT blurb.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I did it with Jarrett Robbins too. Tony Robbins son, because you know, Jarrett, I think.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. He's like, dude, that's amazing. Cause I did it for him too. He's like,

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I just like picked like my friends who are, are successful authors and I just like, okay,

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because the GPT knows your voice, right? You've published something. Yeah. And yeah,

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Jarrett was like, man, I couldn't have written that any better myself. So it's been fun.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had to write a blurb recently and I spent like weeks like avoiding writing this blurb.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I should have just used chat GPT to write my blurb. Totally forgot. Yeah, it's amazing.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So with thrillers, give me advice if I wanted to write a thriller, like I've written 25 books

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and I've even written some fiction and I've written a lot of unpublished fiction. When

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I first started writing, that was how I kind of paid my dues as I wrote 30 years ago,

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of unpublishable fiction. So right now, and I've had tons of thriller writers, you, Ken

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Follich, Brad Meltzer, Brad Thor, uh, had tons of thriller writers on the podcast. So I've kind of,

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, heard and learned a lot. If you were to give me advice, I want to write a thriller.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: What advice would you give me? I would say

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say practice, which it sounds like you've already done. And look,

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I've written two novels that haven't been published and I'm redoing one now.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the practice, are they thrillers or more literary or what kind of novels?

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not thrillers. They're novels. I literally wrote a book. I'm finishing it now.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote a novel about four women going through seal training and two of them make it.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote that. I think that's, and it's all takes place in this like hectic seal training.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so that, that book is, is done. I just finished rewriting it. But that hasn't been

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: published. I wrote three quarters of a book about three homeless friends that live inside Penn

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Station in New York. And one of the guys inherits, um, he was an ex-Dorman. He ends up a lady that

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy had tragic story. He, he quit a 20 year doorman job to go to a new building in New York.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he got falsely accused of stealing a package and got fired. And then he couldn't get

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: his old job back. And then one of the women in his old building ends up leaving him her fortune,

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like a couple million bucks, her penthouse apartment. But it's a burden to him. He's

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: homeless. He doesn't have responsibility. He hasn't thought about his daughter. And now

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: he's like thrust into this, this situation where he has to take, he has to get his life

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: together. Um, in a similar sense, the other main character, Donnie was a Wall Street guy,

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: got framed in the 2008 crisis. Like they pinned it on him when he was like saying, look, we shouldn't,

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: we shouldn't invest in these, and these, um, I forget what they call them, these derivatives,

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: right? Where they bundle those, the bad mortgages. And yeah, he basically gets fired.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then on the way home, and he has a drinking problem. Like he's, but he's sober. And on the

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: way home, he gets a call on his son is, is, uh, likely it was hit, hit by a car likely to die.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And for sure is, is paralyzed. And so he just goes off the wagon. He never, he never makes it

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: home. He goes on a drunk and then ends up living in Penn station for two years. So

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and then one day he sees his son in Penn station in a wheelchair and then

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: his son is like a tech kid. But this kid's like rolling past him in the wheelchair and

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't realize his dad is the homeless guy. Like it's crazy, but that, that book is really,

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited about that, but that's,

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. I love, I love this book when that should be published.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Well, I'm going to finish it. Um, but this is me practicing it because like you,

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: like you said, and you and I've talked about fiction or fiction very different from

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: nonfiction, right? It's, yeah, I feel like it's you and I could create a cool plot,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: but to fill it in with interesting characters. And then you got a lot of it's the dialogue.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You really got a nail dialogue and that's tough. And I just personally, just

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: from my own experience had to practice. And that's why I've been writing these

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: novels on the side and then learning from guys like Brad Zor and getting help from them,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: like how what their techniques are and everybody's different. Like I'm,

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: John and I write together. He's very methodical. Like I, I like for sure to have my plot and my

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: outline and my main characters, like very put, put a lot of effort into that. And then I just

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: write the story in a free flow form.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, I feel like you're good at plotting. Like he sort of take, I mean, correct me if

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wrong. Um, you kind of because you're the X Navy seal, you sort of like make the plot.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he sort of like fills in a lot of the sort of words around telling the story.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can make the plot. I'm really good at kind of like

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the, a lot of the characters and then what John's brilliant at is bringing them to life.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And then as you know, he's, he's good at naming too. And yeah, we work, we work well together,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but he writes very different than I do. I write more Stephen King style where it's just

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: free flow where he's like, no, he's got it all mapped out. Like he's got the entire,

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, very detailed architectural plans where I'm like, okay, I got a loose sketch and I'm

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: going for it. I feel like I would be really good at, and I know this from just my previous

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: attempts. I'm really good at the premise. So I'll come up with a good premise. Like

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: your premise of three guys in Penn station who are homeless and one guy inherits the money

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and boom, the story goes off. But then I have a hard time kind of coming up with twists that the

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: reader can't guess in advance. Like I think, and by the way, I see that in other writers like,

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance, I think one of the best writers in history for premises is Neil Gaiman, you know,

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: who's written so many novels, movies, comic books and so on. But I think sometimes at

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: least with some of his stories doesn't always come full circle. The plot doesn't always

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: end well. And not a criticism of him. He's the best premise writer in history almost, but I feel

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: like it's hard for me to then get into the particulars of plot and the twist.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll tell you what, because you're, I think you and I both have good, like we're good at generating

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: ideas. You should go and end a GPT four and say, this is my plot. Give me some plot twists.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Give me this. You just develop a really good prompt and be completely blown away by what it

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: gives you. I asked it, I want to write science fiction that has to do with special ops in the

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: future. And it should be like climate chains rising sea levels. And now we're actually fighting

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: deep under the oceans for control of minerals and resources. And then there should be some

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: crazy portal that aliens left in underwater to kind of check on the planet earth and give me

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: like a bunch of different worlds and describe each world in detail. And it's, and so I had a very

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: good prompt and it blew me away. And it described like this world was a water world. This world

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: was desert like Dune and like it gave me everything. And I was like, Oh my God, it's so good.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, people would go, Oh, you're cheating. But now these are the tools

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that are available. And if you're not using them as an artist and a crater, you're going to be left

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the dust. Yeah, I agree. I don't view AI as a replacement because whenever I see

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: total replacement, it's not that good. Like if AI were to write that novel,

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it wouldn't be that well written. And by the way, people say, Oh, well, that's just

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: going to improve really fast. It's not really going to improve very fast. It's already,

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, processed every single piece of text ever written. It's, it's going to improve, but it's

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: going to improve much more slowly now than, than it has to get here. But if you view it as an

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: assistant, then it's perfect. It's a good assistant and you and I are at an advantage

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: because GPT has access to everything that's been published on the internet

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: pre 2021. It knows your voice. Like you saw what I did, right? Like that I gave it a

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: prompt. It knows your voice. It can write in your style and the same with me because

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: my son Hunter told me he's like, Hey, dad, I just want to let you know, like GPT really

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: has you nailed. I had it write a short story in your voice. And it was like you,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you speaking to me. And I'm like, Holy shit. So I went and started messing around with it.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was blown away by how good it gets. Cause I just tell it right in my,

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: right in the voice of, of Brandon Webb and you know, create this and it's, it's insanely good.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's take that concept of the three homeless guys. One's the ex-wall street guy ones that whose

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: son is in a wheelchair. The other is the doorman switch buildings, unfairly accused,

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but the old building inherited the apartment and a couple million bucks. Okay. Great premise.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. Let's say that's the first third of the book. What's the twist? What's the problem?

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the premise? What's the, what's the thing that drives the plot next?

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So the story is about redemption and the third character is a, it's a South Korean immigrant

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: family. The family, there was two teenage boys. The mom and dad got killed in a car wreck.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So they got put in this foster home and they got, they both got abused and one of the

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: brothers killed himself. And the other guy saw is the Korean guy that he's the third homeless guy

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's very quiet. He's, he's a nice guy and they don't know his backstory. But what happens is

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: this is like the whole book is about a path to redemption very much in the theme of the humans

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of New York, the way these stories just kind of grip you because I think it's interesting to

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: see like these very, these tragic stories of people that were doing very well in life.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they just fell off the cliff into pretty much substance abuse. And in this case,

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they're all alcoholics. And so Jimmy, which is the doorman, he's kind of the catalyst of the

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: other two guys to get their act together because they're all friends and they want to help. And

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: these series of events come together where I had a New York Times reporter,

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a great story, right? The homeless guy inherits a couple million bucks in a penthouse

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: apartment. It's a great, it's a great story and they're trying to find him. They don't even know

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: where to find this guy, Jimmy, but they find him and then the reporter comes and, and Donnie,

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the guy with the son of the wheelchair, he's like, look, I'll handle. And the other thing is

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: too that's fucked up is Jimmy finds a Labrador puppy in the garbage someone threw him out

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: in Penn Station and he raises his puppy and he names this dog Hope and this,

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: this nasty woman from animal control gets a complaint and she comes to Penn Station and

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: rips the dog out of the sky. Like this, the dog is this is Jimmy's life. And she freaking takes

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the dog away from him. And he goes like quiet for, for a week doesn't talk to anybody. But then they,

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: he finds out he inherits his money, the New York Times reporter comes and

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Jimmy doesn't want to talk to anybody. Donnie goes, I'll get him to talk. But I need you

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to do me a favor. Like I want to find out about my son and all this. And I want to find out about

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: my friend Saul. So can you like go in the database and like, tell me like give a report on these

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: guys? So then, then he finds out about all his friends and it's, and they go to the,

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to the law office where the lawyer is handling the state and Jimmy takes Donnie as buddy and

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and then that's at that point, they decide to go to a alcoholics anonymous meeting. And it's from

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: there it's they're on this very clear path to redemption and it all takes place over Christmas

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: in New York. And so it has a great happy ending. I mean, it's a great movie. Yeah. So boy, how does

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it like in the arc of the hero, the problems are supposed to get worse and worse and worse

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as you meet, you know, more and more allies and so on. Like how does Jimmy's problems get worse

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: once he inherits? Well, he's a problem you kind of learn in reverse you, you know, first it's

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: very funny that one of my favorite books by John Steinbeck called tortilla flats. And it's very

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it gave me the inspiration behind this book because you know, it's about a hobo and Monterey

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that inherits two houses from his aunt. And all of a sudden he's got all these problems

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: like his buddies are bumming off of him and he was a mooch himself. And now he's like, oh wait,

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, I have a house I have responsibility. It just changes things. But it's a very funny

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: book because these guys are drunk. And you know, there's all these scenes where like Jimmy's a

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: huge history buff. And like these Mormon kids come to New York and they're trying to like

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: convert him and he just gives them like a just a dressing down of a history lesson on the

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: failings of the Mormon church and how bullshit it is. Like, but there's all it's it's a funny book

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: because these guys are just getting shitfaced every day. And it's a new comedy of errors.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And just like life in Penn Station, all the weird stuff that goes on underground how the

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: how the police department control the amount of homeless they don't they have a certain number

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: they they it's like the magic number they can't have anymore or just tips the scales.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But then you learn is that true?

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so, but I made it up. So you kind of go backwards and learn about these.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually you come to know like their tragic stories. And then it just sucks you in and then

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the path to redemption. Like that's kind of the rising action to the to the resolution

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: is where you realize that in Donnie and Jimmy's case, Jimmy has a daughter, Donnie has his son

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and his wife ex-wife that divorced him now. But they think that, oh, no one will want me back.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: My son doesn't want me. I'm ashamed. And then they find out that no, these people actually do

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: really care. There is that element of human forgiveness. And that's what I think makes the

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: story beautiful is that's this kind of this redemption story. But there's no like crazy

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: plot twist. There's these like reveals where you find out, holy shit, like the Saul's character,

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you just have no idea what happened to him. And then his two friends find out like,

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: holy shit, this guy was like sexually abused and his brother killed himself and he ran away

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and then became homeless. And I see. So you just kind of keep the action happening

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: with like the cliffhangers are realistic new reveals that could bring them down or could

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: shed new light. And that keeps propelling the character forward. It's kind of dealing with

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: each new reveal. Yeah. And then, you know, the ending is, you know, they kind of have this happy

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: ending where they get invited to Christmas dinner. I don't know. I think I just told the whole book.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's okay. It's going to be a while before this published.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's, you know, I had fun writing that. And, you know, that's for me,

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just practicing to be a better novelist because I feel like I've got the nonfiction

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: data. I had a ton of practice. I like it. I enjoy it. I can write a book in 60 days,

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: like, and I could probably write a thriller now in 90 days, because it's just, yeah, you got to

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: just grind it out. I feel like I had a particular approach to nonfiction where I would write

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in a very storytelling style, nonfiction. So I would, I would write basically almost

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like in a lyric, it was like narrative nonfiction. So I'd write in a literary style my nonfiction

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: experiences because I don't need to plot them. I, I am the plot. I know the plot. I had the

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: failing and I survived and whatever. And again, like I practiced in the 90s, I used to write

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: 3,000 words a day pretty much for the entire 90s. And I wrote four novels, all of them

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: completely unpublishable, but rightly so. And if you save them, you should load them up

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: into GPT and have them like, I know I should. Unfortunately, it's so long ago. I certainly

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: did not save them. But I mean, I would, I was thrown out of graduate school because that's

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: all I was doing was writing fiction instead of studying computer science. And then I was

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: printing up, you know, I would send to 20 publishers. So I'd print up like 8,000 pages

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: on the school printers and people are like, who's someone owes us money for all this

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: paper. And like, there was a huge scandal. That's, but I didn't get good. I mean,

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I got to be a good writer out of that experience, but I wasn't like a novelist

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: out of that experience. I was just a good writer and I'd like to try writing a thriller.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the process, right? So John and I will write it. We'll have, we'll read it

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: each other. Then we send it to a group of, we each have about four or five novelists

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that we send it to. They read it. Or there may be a novelist or they're just a, they're

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: avid fan of the genre. So we have this group that we each send it to, they give us notes.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we go, okay, yeah, we got to rewrite this. Then our editor, like a really good

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Anne Spire, which is at Random House, she's amazing. She's like, guys, gotta pick up the

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: pace, like gotta move it along, like chop this, chop that. And we're just like, oh man,

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like so much extra work. But it's a lot more work than a nonfiction book.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just like rewritten probably three or four times before you have a finished manuscript.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it is a process and I'm sure that maybe, I'm probably sure Brad Thor does something similar.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: He has people read it. Even he's reached out to me before and asked me like military technical

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff. But I'm sure he's got readers that give him feedback. And that's super valuable

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: because you having like thriller fans or novels, whatever the genre is that are really into it,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they know what they like. And they're harsh critic and it makes the book so much better.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think like with the rise of like TikTok and, you know, scroll media,

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, with Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, do you think fewer people in the

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: future are going to be interested in reading thrillers?

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the core, I mean, look at this. Look at it this way. I think that

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the core stories are going to people like good content and people consume content differently.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Like my youngest son is he doesn't like reading, but he loves audio, right. And that's

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they call that a form of dyslexia, which to me it's kind of bullshit. It's just he learns

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: differently than other people. People like listen to audiobooks. Some like to read,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: some like to watch shows. So I think as long as you know, the people always crave content,

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: like really good stories. And it's just now we're at an incredible time where we can easily

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_02]: with these tools, especially with artificial intelligence, turn these stories into multiple

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: formats written audio. Like I watched, I went to Cannes Lions this year. It's a media advertising

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: conference and I just lucked out and got an invite to open AI all day event. And they were

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: showing me the open AI team was showing these artists and how they were using these tools.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I saw a guy that clone David Attenbury's, I think that's his name, the British guy that

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: narrated planet Earth cloned his voice with a voice clone created these kind of furry monsters

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and made this whole like Pixar movie himself. One guy, I'll send it to you. It's called

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: critters. You can find it on YouTube critters with a Z, but I'll send you the link.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I was blown away all with AI. And I'm like, okay, look, you and I know how difficult

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and time consuming it is to read a book to audio. Well now 15 seconds, I can clone

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: James Altar's voice and have it read the book. And maybe I clone a few other well-known figures

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and slightly alter the voice. But it's like, you know, all of a sudden you have all

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: these guest appearances in the book, like in different voices, like reading the intro,

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, it's crazy. And it just makes it the technology is you can transform

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: your content into so many different mediums. And I think that's the exciting thing. And

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's going away. I think that's here to stay. But yeah, we'll paper books,

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, be a thing, you know, I think it'll just be a novelty. It's like classic cars,

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, people are always be into it, but it'll just get, you know, become this like weird niche.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a kind of written content though, which never goes away, which is of course

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: news content. So you run soft rep SOFREP.com, which is a site about military news,

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: military culture, foreign policy news and so on. And what kind of content does well there?

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have millions of visitors, but like what sort of content always seems to do the best?

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just reviewing our best stuff. So anytime like we do content around

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like ranger training, Navy SEAL training, you know, what's it like? How do you make it through?

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We those do well history posts. I did it. I use chat to PT to help me write a kind of like,

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: what if Nazi Germany won World War Two? Like, what would it truly look like?

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was using AI like analysts, like, hey, what would Churchill think it looks like?

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_02]: What would Admiral McRaven think it looks like? So you get these different perspectives and he

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of stitched it into this really cool storyline. That stuff does well. I wrote also

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: a piece that did really, really well about, I know enough about what's happening inside

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Russia to give a really good prompt to GPT for and say, okay, what would Civil War in Russia

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: look like? Like who are the characters? Who are the main protagonists? What would happen?

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: How would it affect China? What would be China's concerns? What would be of, you know,

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the EU and America's concern? So you get this really in depth research and then I can

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: then I can just edit it and package it. And that story held the number one spot for

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I think two weeks on software. And what will you think happen? Like, you know,

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: given the recent events with this, you know, almost coup, which, which by the way, if that coup

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: kept going, if the Wagner group kept going, they would have taken over Moscow. I think so.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And that's Putin's, that's his big problem right now. I think, you know, it

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely showed like weakness. And that's something in Russia that gets you killed or

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: out of power very quickly. So that's Putin's biggest issue right now. I think his only saving

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: grace is that you have Jenny Guy, the Wagner leader. He is loyal and a friend of Putin. His

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: main issues were with the, with the minister of defense and some other characters. The point

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: is Putin isn't big trouble. Like there's weakness, clear display of weakness.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: This Wagner group, the leaders don't run it around. And Wagner's all.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Where is he like, he didn't go to Belarus?

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02]: No, he's in St. Petersburg. The last, last reports using St. Petersburg.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why doesn't Putin just like pick him up?

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you got to realize that Wagner is probably more sophisticated and technically

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: capable than the Russian military. All of Russia's influence in Africa is controlled by

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Wagner. But wasn't the Wagner group disappointed in this guy that he didn't keep pursuing the coup?

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They feel like he was sort of paid off.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, that's the thing. There was a deal cut. Like there now we know that there was

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_02]: this three hour in person negotiation between Wagner. You have, you have Jenny,

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the leader of Wagner and his, his main lieutenants and Putin and his crew. Like they made

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it, they cut a deal. I don't know. Nobody knows what that is. But it's clear that

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Wagner has a lot of power. The Russian military is, is, is worn out their defense tech. One thing

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that was shocking to me is like, I knew it was bad, but not as bad as I clearly was displayed on the,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: on the battlefield. Like there's Russian defense tech is terrible. The Ukrainians have

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: insane defense technology from the, from the Americans and the British.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: They have a better armed force. They're way more motivated. And now that the,

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: what was kind of keeping Russia in the fight in Ukraine was Wagner and now what's Wagner's gone

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for now, like what's happening there? Nobody knows yet. And so I think this could be the

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: end of Putin and it could be the end of Russia as we know it. I think it could

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02]: fragment into different states. So

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but, but again though, he was suppressed for the moment. And again, the Wagner group might

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_01]: have also trouble staying together given that a lot of people were disappointed that he didn't

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_02]: follow through. Yeah, but it's just, it's still all playing out behind the scenes. And

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in a great movie to watch is the death of Stalin, right? Like everyone, the way that

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: things happen in Russia is very top heavy, right? There's not a lot of middle management.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all these big oligarchs and, you know, these power making these power plays and these

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: deals. So I think it's still happening. Meanwhile, you know, Putin is, Russia's under heavy

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: sanctions. They're losing the war on Ukraine. They've already kind of lost the war of public

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: opinion. And now you saw where Erdogan in Turkey was like thumbs up for Sweden joining

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_02]: NATO and that he was like, I think he sees weakness. And that's why he's like, okay,

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I better warm up to the Americans because this isn't going Putin's way. And I think we're going to see

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: similar, something similar with the Chinese as well. And then they've got to be very concerned

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's like who's next if it's not Putin. The other issue is look, I'm an independent.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm shocked that the best America can do is two guys like Biden and Trump,

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: like to set the best that we offer. But we really don't, you know, Biden is clearly not in a

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: very good mental state. Like he's got clear, clear issues and we don't have strong leadership in the

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: U.S. to kind of end the war. And it's going to take a very strong leader to kind of go to the

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_02]: table with the Russians, whoever it ends up being, Putin or somebody else. And we don't have

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: strong leadership in the EU. And so you end up with this, what was our Vietnam, right? It's kind of

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: what, what Ukraine has turned into for Russia. It's just like nobody can make sense of it all.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody in Russia wants to fight. And it's just like a disaster. So I think it could just drag

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: on and that's, that's the sad thing. So I don't think there's a clear ending in sight.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think it will end in favor of Ukraine, but now I'm, you know, I used to call it, okay, well,

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Russia will take that Eastern territory and the Donbas region and the war will end and

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_02]: both sides will be unhappy, which is typically our good negotiation ends.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody gives something. But in this case, I don't, I think this is a, Putin is in really

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02]: big trouble. And, and it's like a big, there's a lot of unknowns, but I think, you know,

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Ukraine could get it all back, even Crimea at this point, depending on what happened. So

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and let's talk about China. Do you think, I mean, a few years ago, I was convinced China

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: was going to invade Taiwan any day, but now it's not so clear to me.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I was just having dinner with a friend from business school from Hong Kong.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And we got to talk about this. I don't, I think Taiwan is similar, similar to Hong Kong is that

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the Chinese are, they're already in control. Like it's the native language is Mandarin. They've

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_02]: got so much Chinese culture, their intelligence, like their version of the CIA is for sure heavy

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: influence in Taiwan. And I think they've already kind of got the puppet strings. And this whole

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: invasion is just like, yeah, whatever, like, and they'll just wait it out. Like they're like,

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, Taiwan's ours. We're just not, we don't need to invade because we kind of already exert

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: all this influence. And, you know, I think a lot of it is just kind of

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: smoke and mirrors. But I think China is clearly in control of Taiwan. Maybe they don't have control

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that certain industries like the big concern is the microchips, right? But

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: China is clearly in the driver's seat in Taiwan. I mean, most Americans couldn't even point out

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02]: where Taiwan is on the map. Right. I don't think I can actually.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so yeah, I'm not, I don't even think about that anymore. I think it's just more like political

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: grandstanding. I just watched the Schwarzenegger documentary, which is really good. And there's

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a scene in there where he's a governor of California and he's made a deal behind the

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_02]: scenes and then they storm out of the office and the Democrats screaming at him like,

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm never going to do this for you. They've already made the deal. And Arnold's like,

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, there's just kind of, you have a term for it, but it's all just kind of bullshit political

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: grandstanding. Just to show the people that they're like doing something. But in reality,

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: they already cut the deal behind closed doors. So I think a lot of that happens on this global

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: stage. So again, you know, Brandon, you're involved in so many things like ranging from

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01]: military career, the soft rep, the military news website, thrillers, books, games, movies.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the next thing you're working on? Blind fears just been published. Came out yesterday.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody should go buy it. It's the, if you like Jack Reacher, if you like all those types of

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_01]: thrillers, this is that on steroids literally. So well, he's not on steroids, but this is that

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_01]: plus military. What's the exact next thing you're going to be working on? Not the nonfiction

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: book. Like what's the next fiction thing you're going to be working on? I think I'm going

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to finish that Penn Station novel and try and get it published. That is a great idea.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to be a test reader of that. Yeah, I know. I would love to have you read it.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure you'd have great feedback as someone that's lived in New York for a long time.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Like did you do research and did you spend some time as homeless in Penn Station just to

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: see? No, I thought about it, but I've, I spent a lot of time in Penn Station observing,

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_02]: like as a sniper would, I'm just kind of like taking notes and watching,

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the police work and the, and the homeless. And I remember there's even a part

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in the book where I remember I was, I was in Penn Station. I saw a guy try and set up a music

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: stand and the other homeless were like, no, they just, they kind of shushed him away because

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like that's their territory. And in my novel, they actually, they, the three,

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the three characters, they rent out their, their space for a cut of this guy is he

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: plays blues guitar and they get 30% of his profits. So they kind of like ran out the

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_02]: little real estate and it keeps them in, in booze, you know, and they actually,

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they can make around 30 K year and they's like with the, with renting their little space to

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the blues guitarist and they basically just perpetually drunk. Like it keeps them,

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they make enough money to buy enough food and alcohol.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: That's funny. Well, first off, good luck on blind fear. I always love your thriller

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: books. I don't have to say that. Like people know I love them. I want to see all your

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_01]: books as movies. I want to, I want to go to the movie for a lot of these

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm just curious what a good movie director will make things look like.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I'm looking forward to this next book, the Penn Station Homeless Book.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What's, do you have a title for that one?

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Just called Penn Station.

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Ah, I love it. I like the simplicity.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Penn Station. The subtitle is just a Chronicle of Hope and Resilience in New

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: York City. Also, I have a signing. Any, any of your

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Altature listeners are in New York on the 26th, which is Wednesday.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing a signing at Mysterious Books and Tribeca. So I would love,

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to see any, any of your fans that love, love to sign books and anything

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I could do for, for your audience. That's extra.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. So, so July 26th, which is like in a week or so,

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_02]: go to the mysterious website, mysterious books and Tribeca.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They've got the event.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Cool. Well, good luck with all this stuff.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Once again, thanks for the tips. At some point, I got to hold myself accountable to it.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: At some point I'm going to write a thriller novel.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I have like, again, a premise, but I've just got to sit down and think about it.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I love to help you and, and check out the UBMAs or what the, what GPT can generate.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I, I'd be a,

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. That was a good advice.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to throw in a premise and see what it says.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, sir. I will talk to you soon.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. Thanks, James. I'll be a hound in you for a chess lesson soon.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent. Anytime.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. See you brother.