Unveiling the Path to a Life Worth Living | Miroslav Volf (Yale Professor & Theologan)

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[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_04]: What does it mean to live a life that is worth living?

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, fortunately there's a book about it.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Life Worth Living, a guide to what matters most by three Yale professors and teachers

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: who teach an extremely popular course at Yale about life called Life Worth Living.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Miroslav Wolf, Matthew Croesman and Ryan McNally-Lyns.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Miroslav came on the podcast to talk about his new book.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I have to say this book really moved me.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_04]: There were so many like excellent stories and so much wisdom about how to live a life worth living

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and it really changed my opinion about several things

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and I had a lot of questions for Miroslav.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_04]: So here they are. Here's Miroslav.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm grateful he came on the podcast.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: The book is Life Worth Living and Life Worth Living Book.com

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_04]: where you can also download a discussion guide about the book.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Also throughout the book there's questions you can ask yourself

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: to challenge you to think about what is a life worth living for you.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, here's Miroslav and we're talking about a life worth living.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I highly recommend it.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the James Altiger Show.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Miroslav, Wolf, thank you for coming on the podcast

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and thank you for writing this book.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_04]: What got you into doing this course?

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, initially what got me into it is kind of realization triggered by a book

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: by a colleague of mine, Tony Kronman titled Education's End

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: on Why American Colleges and Universities Have Given Up on the Meaning of Life.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And he analyzes kind of development of higher education starting with Harvard

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: in United States above all, starting with Harvard

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and how the question of the meaning of life, what kind of life is truly worth living

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: was at the heart of university education.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And even so when those universities started secularizing

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and became more secular until about 70s, that's his argument.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not always persuaded by kind of details of the argument

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but main point about marginalization of the question seems to me right.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Which meant then that instrumental reason, explanatory reasons started dominating

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a university education and the kind of purposes of life, meaning of life

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: become increasingly marginalized.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Can I ask what you mean by explanatory reasons?

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean that it's your explanation of the phenomena

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of the nature of reality in various domains

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and the other I say instrumental reason because basically I put it this way

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it helps you get from whatever point A you are to whatever point B you want to get.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Can you give an example of how is that different from questioning what is the meaning of life

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_04]: or what is a life worth living?

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Well I think that what is a life worth living or meaning of life is a question about purpose,

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: question about should.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think central issue for me is that how do I answer the question

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: what kind of life is worthy of my humanity?

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of life is worth living?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Not what I want to live but what kind of life I should live?

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: How do I answer this should question?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think the should question can be answered by appealing either to some kind of inner depth of the self.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Something like authenticity, my own individual character, my own dreams and my own deepest desires

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't think it can be either answered satisfactorily by looking at kind of sciences.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get advice from sciences in terms of what kinds of means would be appropriate to whatever ends you want to achieve

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but the ends question, what I should, what kind of life I should live

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that seems to me untouched by these or unaddressed by these dominant ways

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in which we privately think about our lives and which we sometimes publicly think about them as in universities.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Well maybe we can use this, you have a lot of different examples in the book

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and it seems like each example, the answer to how to find meaning in your life

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_04]: or how to live a life worth living changes depending on the perspective of the story you're telling

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_04]: whether it's Budo or Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King or Jesus or James Baldwin

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and in a lot of the perspective, some of it is from an individual point of view

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_04]: some of it is from a societal point of view.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe we could break down how did Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King differ from Budo say in their perspective

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: because both had very, you could say all those people had lives worth living

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: but very different answers to the question what is a life worth living?

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they've given a kind of different accounts of what it means to life worth living.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean as I think for instance let's compare Budo and Martin Luther King

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it seems to me that for Martin Luther King the question of kind of what we call circumstances of our lives

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that is to say what kind of setting is appropriate to a life

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: what kind of set of relationships is appropriate to a life that is truly worth living

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a world that is truly worth aspiring.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That question was at the center of Martin Luther King's endeavor

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: an attempt to reach beloved community, a wider extent

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to situate that beloved community in a certain way in which we go about

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: creating goods in life in terms of economic justice, in terms of political sets of relationship.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think those were the margins of the concern of the Buddha.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Buddha was interested in kind of more about internal space

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and how the self situates itself within the world.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And what we do in this course is we basically approach the vision of the good life

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: by saying that the good life or life worthy of our humanity

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: has these three mutually related dimensions.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: One dimension is that of my agency.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The other dimension is that of the setting in which I am, the circumstances.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And the third dimension is that of emotions, of affect.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: How do these three figure in each of the vision of life that we analyze?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really interesting question that we pursue.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_04]: So let me ask about those three things.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So the first one was agency, meaning perhaps if that's the only thing you focus on

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_04]: then life will have as much individual choice on my actions as possible is one worth living.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and it would be something, your actions is what you really have under control.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: A stoic might say your circumstances really cannot determine

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: what kind of life is worthy to be lived because circumstances will change

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to have the kind of stability of core to yourself.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, you concentrate on your agency and if emotions come

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: they will be a kind of result of proper orientation in terms of agency in life

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're not worthy of pursuit in and of themselves.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Right, and as Stoics would point out both Epictatus and Marcus Aurelius

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_04]: were let's say equally great stoics in terms of understanding that regardless of the circumstances

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: they had choice of their mood and virtue in their lives.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_04]: And Epictatus of course born a slave, Marcus Aurelius an emperor

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and yet equally were able to pursue agency hence stoicism.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_04]: And so the next thing was you discuss how the setting could determine

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_04]: how you live a worthy life and you could argue Martin Luther King

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: his setting was a world with not the civil rights he wanted

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_04]: so he pursued a life where he wanted to change that to create greater civil rights.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and behind that lies the question that of course it's important to have a right set of agency

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but you can be also in a significant way constrained as an agent in the world

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and that constraint represents a modes of injustice that you suffer

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to then construe a kind of a world in which one is able truly to flourish.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like you think of yourself as a plant

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and not every soil will be appropriate, not every environment will be appropriate for you to grow

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and the vision there is that actually as he put it himself

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that actually I cannot flourish truly myself until everyone else in the world flourishes

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that flourishing of all flourishing of even entire environment

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that was not on the forefront of his attention is essential for each person to be really living a life

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: as they are called to as worthy of their humanity

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and in that sense though certain way of accessing life worthy of our humanity

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is there for us whether we are slaves or free, we ought to aspire to more than that.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's interesting because let's take Buddha and Martin Luther King again

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Buddha is not trying to change the world

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_04]: as you mentioned he's trying to live as an example of how one could uplift one's personal individual

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of inner space and Martin Luther King of course is trying to change the world

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and both probably equally and positively affected tens or even hundreds of millions of people

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_04]: in their lifetimes and after and yet both very different.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Buddha could have gone out and been a king and chose not to be,

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_04]: not to change the external world but in doing so attracted people to his vision

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Martin Luther King didn't sit for his entire life in a grove and attract people to him

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_04]: but he went out there in the world to affect change.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: It's hard to reconcile the two to know how to live one's life

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_04]: so where do you come down on that?

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I know the book doesn't have one answer to a life worth living

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_04]: there is, you know, pick a card here, pick a card.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well except that I wouldn't quite put it pick a card on any card

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the first part of what you said is quite right

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and what we try to do in the book we realize that each person is responsible for their own life

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: ultimately your life is in your own responsibility

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you may ask then well to whom am I responsible to live it in a certain way

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: but still you have to decide how you would live

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but how do you decide and what we are suggesting

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and what this book hopefully embodies is what we call truth seeking conversations

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: what I don't think we should do is look at those sages and exemplars

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and then think well what kind of resonates with me?

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: What do I like as if these were there on the smorgasbord of life choices

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you choose depending on how what kind of meal you feel like eating today

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think what we want to say is that there is something deeply earnest and significant

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: something that can be lost if we don't live our lives in the way that's worthy of our humanity

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: we have exemplars of folks who failed as humans

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: now that's very hard to hear sometimes

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can fail not in a particular endeavor that you undertake

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: which we all know which we all fail and maybe learn from our failures and so forth

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but you can fail as a human being that's a much more consequential failure

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and that means that we have to take this question in the way in which I think these traditions

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: normally did take them namely that they articulate a truth about human existence

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: now you might say well all these tend to conflict

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they are partly overlap but in significant ways they also differ

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and then what we do we invite our students in the class that we teach and also in this book

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we invite people to try to think themselves into those positions

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and then critically evaluate their impact on them on others

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but take them seriously as making those claims to truth rather than simply appealing to their attunement

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional fit between them and that vision that they encounter

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_04]: that's really a good point because it could change throughout your life

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_04]: like maybe at some points you're concerned with your own inner desires and rejections and cravings

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and so you work on that because you feel working on that will point you in the right direction

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and then other times you see injustice in the world and you work on that

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_04]: and you feel that becomes life worth living

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_04]: so it doesn't have to be like one set of beliefs that drive you through an entire life

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and you start off with the book with searching for what is the right question to ask

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and by the way one thing I really love in this book is at the end of each chapter

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_04]: you have a section called Your Turn

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and there's exercises for the reader like here's one from chapter 5

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_04]: like you ask questions like what should we hope for

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_04]: what are genuinely good circumstances

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_04]: how much is enough when it comes to these circumstances

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and there's no real answer to these questions

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_04]: but like you said they're enough to think about

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_04]: like some people might say oh I need 10 million dollars

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and a certain political party to be president

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and then I'm in genuinely good circumstances

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you could question is that true

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and like you say in the very next question

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_04]: where should we set the horizon of our hopes

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_04]: that's a moving target for many people

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and it kind of goes back and forth between all these philosophies

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_04]: but let's start with the initial thing

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_04]: what is a good question to ask to set us on the road

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_04]: of finding out what is a life worth living

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think for me the good question to set off that search

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is to ask what do I want

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: do I really want what I want

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and if I really want what I want

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: should I want what I want

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: so as to come from the very surface

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: observation of our desires

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's the mode in which we generally function

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: we have a desire, we satisfy a desire

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: an ideal case scenario would be that

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that's really the good life that we live

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that our desires are fitting to the kind of life

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that we ought to live

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but often we just have desires

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and then find ourselves oh wait a second

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: how did I come to desire this

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is this really what I want

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: am I getting what I want out of this

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: having this desire satisfied

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and you might realize no, no

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually am being left unsatisfied

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you start thinking about what is it really that I want

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you ask well should I want that

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: what's at stake in me wanting it

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and what might I lose

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: if I pursue that which I really want

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which then takes you to this idea

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of what kind of life I should live

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we find it helpful to say

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: okay once you ask this question

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: ask yourself what kind of agency should you pursue

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: what kind of circumstances

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and what kind of emotions

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and as you said earlier

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I fully agree with you at different stages of our lives

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe even at different times

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of a single day

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I might want to concentrate on one thing

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than on the other thing

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but what I would try to urge is that

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: even when we concentrate on different things

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it's circumstances or agency or emotions

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that nonetheless

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: we keep the whole of our lives together

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because these three elements

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: these three aspects of life informed one another

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's very important to be clear

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: what I want in each one of those

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and why I want

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so interesting because

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_04]: being clear about exactly what it is you want

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_04]: even if it's minutes of a day

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_04]: or single years of your life or whatever

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04]: and then being consistent

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_04]: then figuring out what actions there are

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and then being consistent with it

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: like I like your example of Thomas Jefferson

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_04]: where he writes

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_04]: in 1776 he writes

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: he wants to abolish slavery

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_04]: but then he doesn't quite do it

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and so he's not quite consistent in his actions

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and so that's interesting

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_04]: like clearly can you say

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Thomas Jefferson lived a life worth living

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_04]: because in many ways he did

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_04]: but then there's this as he even labeled it

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_04]: it's just an evil thing

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's right

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and most of us find ourselves

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in that kind of situation

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: where in some domains of our lives

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we live a life that is worthy

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of our humanity

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: at least the way we understand it

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's really a wonderful thing

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but in other domains we don't

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think it's very important to realize

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that for us it was very important

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: as academics in particular

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it was very important to realize

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not enough just to have a clear vision

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of what truly good life is

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to translate that vision

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in daily actions

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and you not only have to translate it in daily actions

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it has to become a kind of a habit

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: your second nature

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: then we are at our best, right?

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: then it's not a life good life

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: life worthy of our humanity

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not simply a matter of striving

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and failing

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it's also a matter of kind of slipping on

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to a very comfortable shoes

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and running

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: without having sense that

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm at odds

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: my feet are at odds with what they are wearing

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's really the goal

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in this whole progression

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: from discerning

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: identifying with what one discerns

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to then translating

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: what one discerns in action

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and to making

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: out-of-actions kinds of habits

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so that I can fully live

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: identified with the vision of life

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that I have embraced

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah and I guess also

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_04]: giving yourself permission

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_04]: for that vision to change

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_04]: so that, you know, like take

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Buddha is such a fascinating example

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a very complex

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_04]: it's much more complex emotionally

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_04]: when you look at the Buddha's story

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_04]: like when he was a prince

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_04]: and he had everything

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_04]: he didn't quite feel fulfilled

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_04]: when he met the monk who seemed very satisfied

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_04]: but in order to make the change

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_04]: from prince to Buddha

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_04]: he basically had to abandon his child

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_04]: on the day his child was born

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and of course

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_04]: he goes back for that child later

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's a beautiful story as well

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_04]: but you see there's a very

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_04]: it's almost inconsistent with goodness

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_04]: the way he leaves his child

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_04]: to seek his own personal salvation

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and again, it's complex

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_04]: because that personal salvation then

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_04]: became a religion for hundreds of millions of people

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_04]: it's a very complex story

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and I don't really know what to make of it

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_04]: because when you try, when you really

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_04]: attempt to be without craving

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_04]: does that leave to

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_04]: like if Martin Luther King had decided

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_04]: to live a life like that maybe he would never have pursued

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_04]: rights for everybody

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and vice versa

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_04]: if Buddha had tried to effect change in his kingdom

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe he not would have been

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_04]: an inspiration for hundreds of millions of people later

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and he would have had

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a very different vision of a good life

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think the one telling thing

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about the Buddha is when

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: he thinks

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: if he renounces wealth at least his son

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: should get that wealth

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and he doesn't, Buddha doesn't think in that way

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because he thinks if he

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: leaves him wealth that's going to be

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: an impediment for him

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: right? That's going to prevent

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: him from reaching

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the kind of life that is

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: truly worth living

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: now you can

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: think well this seems like

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a crazy, crazy idea

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but nonetheless

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that's at the very heart of the Buddhist

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: vision of life just like for instance

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean very interesting and we have

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: also example of that

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: in the book

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: when we discuss kinds of emotions that

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: one ought to have it seems like

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: oh it would be just natural we have

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: emotions they feel good

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which is just pursue those emotions

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and generally we think okay

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: pleasure is very good, pleasurable emotions

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and yet

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the different traditions have thought

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: differently about it and it's worth

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: stopping and thinking and then

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the question was

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: what

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is it that a Buddhist

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a follower of

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the teaching of the Buddha should actually

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: feel?

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not so much a pleasure

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not so much kind of

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: exhilaration of joy

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: or something like that

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it's something much more

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: subtle a kind of

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: serenity in life

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that is unperturbed by

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: circumstances that come

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: once way or sometimes by the

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: comforts of our bodies as well

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and that seemed to me

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: really worth

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about and

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of aligning our lives

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to find

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of emotional

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: way

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to live that is sustainable

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: over periods of time

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Why do you think Buddha is often portrayed

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_04]: as being somewhat heavy?

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You know

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_04]: you see the fat Buddha sitting

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_04]: when probably

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_04]: he wasn't heavy but particularly

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_04]: in the more eastern countries

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: China, Japan when the Buddha is portrayed

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_04]: he's often portrayed as being

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_04]: quite pleasantly

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_04]: satiated with food

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a wonderful question

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not sure that I really know the answer

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but I've always thought of it

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: as there is this

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: base

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: unperturbed

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: serenity

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that can be then expressed

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in the form of kind of

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: rounded shape

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of the body

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: right? It's kind of chubby

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: chubby person

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: it fits less

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: especially how he is portrayed as being chubby

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it fits less somebody who is

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: purely into hedonistic pleasure

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it fits less somebody

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who is

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: stoically marching through

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: life notwithstanding the circumstances

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a kind of beautiful serenity

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that is

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: describes

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that is expressed in

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the very way in which the Buddha is portrayed

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and this

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_04]: obviously your book is not about

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Buddhism but Buddha is one example among

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_04]: many in the book but he's very

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_04]: complex in that

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_04]: he very much does

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_04]: what he wants to do

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_04]: so even when he goes back for his son

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_04]: six years later after leaving

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and you don't mention this part of the story

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_04]: in your book but his wife and his father

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_04]: actually beg him

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_04]: do not take your son

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Rahula let him stay here

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_04]: get your material inheritance

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_04]: your wealth and become king

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_04]: please do not take him

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_04]: and what does the Buddha do and this is where

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_04]: your book talks about

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_04]: he thinks about what the word inheritance means

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_04]: and he realizes his true gift to his son

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_04]: is to believe in the same

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_04]: beliefs he has of

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_04]: the Four Noble Truths and so he

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_04]: basically takes Rahula with him

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_04]: defying his wife that he hasn't seen

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_04]: in six years and defying his father

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's almost a little bit cruel

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_04]: but his higher

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_04]: purpose is this he kind of believes

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_04]: in this absolute truth of

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_04]: you know salvation of the soul

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_04]: is a salvation of everyone really

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_04]: which is very different from

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_04]: how other people might feel

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and I think you can give

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: different examples from different traditions

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in the same way I mean

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in Jewish tradition think of Abraham

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and his own

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: leaving of his home

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: at least waits his portrayed

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in the book of Genesis

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or the story of near sacrifice

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of Isaac

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: think of Jesus

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: as well there's kind of a severity

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: in those

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: teachings which I think

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it's bear reflecting upon I personally

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: for myself think that

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: are kind of such a fundamental

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: reorientation in values

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that is embodied in

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: all three of these examples

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: willingness to undergo

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: this is fundamental for

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the stands that

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: says you know

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: my life is too precious

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to be squandered

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: my life is too precious

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: for me to constantly also

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: experiment with it

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to live

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: my life in a way

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that I would be

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: at one with a true

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: purpose that I find for

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: my life and in order to do that

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of endure what should be at the beginning

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of the book say

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: a wreck for your life this book

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: might wreck your life right

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it may detract

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you for a moment at least

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: or permanently from the

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: direction that you are taking

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: but in a sense

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you're one

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of yourselves dies

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: for another to be truly

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: born and to be

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: lived in a way that

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: you find yourself

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: not that somebody else imposes on you

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but you find yourself to be truly in tune

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: with your humanity

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_04]: you know it's so interesting because

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_04]: again

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_04]: there's like three perspectives

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_04]: the perspective of yourself

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_04]: right now am I experiencing pleasure

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_04]: or not and you give good examples

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_04]: with Oscar Wilde

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_04]: first let me say the perspective

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_04]: there's the perspective of you as an

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_04]: individual experiencing pleasure

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_04]: there's this perspective of you doing good for society

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_04]: so that broadens out the picture a little bit

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and then there's a perspective of you

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_04]: in terms of an ultimate truth

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04]: about the universe or the world

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's almost like

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_04]: the right questions to answer is where you fit in

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_04]: on all of those spectrums

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_04]: those three spectrums

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_04]: individual pleasure, societal

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_04]: correctness or goodness

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_04]: or universal truth

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's almost like we have three levers

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_04]: where we can decide where we fit in

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_04]: on all three of those spectrums

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to determine what our life would be

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_04]: worth living and those levers could be adjusted

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_04]: if I'm summarizing the book with an analogy

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that might be a helpful way to do it

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: we use it with the help of recipe

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: right you have to put these different

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: elements and dimensions

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of the good life

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to hold them together

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we express as well

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to have recipe and not all ingredients

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: are fitting to be part of the recipes

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you can combine them

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: different ingredients but some of them

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: will just not

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: fit the recipe at all

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore you have to be conscious

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: of how you adjust those

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: those elements

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you put it also very nicely

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of levers

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: all three have to be in play

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but what would dominate

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and what would be subordinate might

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: differ from person to person

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and as you earlier pointed out rightly

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it may differ for a particular

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: single person in the course of their

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: lives

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and it's worth bringing up the Oscar Wilde example

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_04]: from the book like early in his life

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_04]: he pursued maybe you can call it

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_04]: more hedonistic pleasure

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not there's nothing wrong with that

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_04]: he enjoyed it

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_04]: and it too

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_04]: is a life worth living and then he kind of

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_04]: as he grew older he sort of morphed into

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe more silent pleasures

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_04]: like reading and thinking

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and you know

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_04]: things like that but he pursued

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_04]: mostly pleasure

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_04]: and happiness which is nothing wrong with that

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_04]: in the case of Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_04]: it's more like

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: you know

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_04]: a life worth living for them was maybe one filled

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_04]: with sacrifice they were willing to give their lives

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_04]: essentially for some greater

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_04]: societal good

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_04]: and these are almost extreme examples

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_04]: like Lincoln and Martin Luther King

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_04]: literally gave their lives

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_04]: for a greater good in society

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and Oscar Wilde

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_04]: he risked jail and did face

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_04]: jail pursuing pleasure

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and Buddha

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and Jesus and those who followed

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_04]: you know his initial disciples

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_04]: basically gave up society

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_04]: in order to pursue what they felt

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_04]: was a life worth living

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I think some of those choices

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: are kind of serendipitous

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: they happen in the course of life

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe that's what happened

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to Oscar Wilde

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: for a while and he had to

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: undergo crisis in order

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of recalibrate

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: himself

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of them are a matter of

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: oh that's okay I choose one

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than the other

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: because it's

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: important to me now but others on the other hand

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: are

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: not so much choices

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm wondering whether

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: when Oscar Wilde says well

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: we kind of squandered

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I squandered my talent

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in just

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a kind of

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: sheer hedonism right

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and you think well

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: right if I were

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oscar Wilde and now from perspective as a

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: reader of him I think well I wish he had

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit fewer of these

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so that we as humanity can benefit

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: from him much

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: more and the same thing

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: could happen you would think about

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Martin Luther King it's not

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose at some level you would

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: say it's okay if he doesn't do

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: what he is doing

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but on the other hand you say

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: well it wouldn't have been okay

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the path that he

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: chose the calling that he chose

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's kind of exemplary for him

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's also or it's

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: characteristic of him but it's also

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: exemplary for us

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: if we don't do in similar situation

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: as Martin Luther King does

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: there is kind of

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: something telling me I'm not

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: quite living up to what I

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: possibly could and I might be

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: failing in a significant way

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: you know is that too harsh no

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_04]: no but it's interesting because

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_04]: ultimately all

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_04]: of these people had their

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_04]: successes and failures but

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_04]: like take Gandhi that you know

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Martin Luther King was greatly influenced by

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_04]: was he a success he freed

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_04]: India quote unquote freed India from

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_04]: the British Empire but the UK

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_04]: United Kingdom was slowly unraveling

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_04]: its empire anyway

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and you know ultimately the

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_04]: India that came out of the UK

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_04]: was split by religious strife

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_04]: ultimately split into three different countries

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_04]: there was constant wars and battles

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_04]: and they took a step backwards

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_04]: as a developing country for a while

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_04]: now they're accelerating

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_04]: very well but

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: you know you could argue was it worth it

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_04]: him pursuing

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_04]: a greater good when he didn't

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_04]: fully know what would happen

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_04]: even though his intentions were good

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and in some

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: ways I think you point to very

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: important and

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: element on unpredictability

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: of life and if you

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: assess the value of life

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: only against the backdrop

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of consequences

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: you might as well

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: be second guessing yourself

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: all the time what's kind of worth

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: doing I think many

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of the traditions would say

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: the consequences

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: might be important but what

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: there you ought to pay

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: attention to something

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: more than just consequences

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of your of your deeds indeed

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: some would say you can completely disregard

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: consequences as a kind of

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: moral strictly issue

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and of course that's another

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: big philosophical if you want

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: religious issue to debate

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: about but it's important to keep

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: keep in mind right so that

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: one might say

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: even if he failed in terms of consequences

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: what he was

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: aspiring to do

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and the kind of life that he

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: let had its own

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: integrity that merits

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: deep honoring

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and identifying

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with and then might

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: cause you to think well

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: how should I assess my life

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it's interesting too that

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_04]: a lot of this is about creativity

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_04]: like you look at Oscar Wilde

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Martin Luther King, Gandhi

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Buddha

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Jesus or his disciples

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a certain creativity

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_04]: in sort of looking at the world

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_04]: and seeing oh things can be

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: wildly different

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and that might be the life worth living

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_04]: so take the disciples

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_04]: who you give as an example

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean he wants to follow Jesus

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and he says to Jesus basically

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_04]: hey but first I got to just bury

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_04]: my dad who just died

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and Jesus says let the

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_04]: dead bury the dead

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_04]: and he's not just referring to father right

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_04]: he's metaphorically referring to everybody

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_04]: in traditional society

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: is living a kind of walking dead

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_04]: sort of life

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_04]: but pursuing

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: your personal relationship with God

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04]: immediately

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_04]: without doubt

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_04]: without hesitation is a life

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_04]: worth living like there's

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Jesus basically underlines

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_04]: the immediacy of it like you can't

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_04]: even bury the dead

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_04]: you got to move now

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I wonder

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_04]: it's this ability to be so open-minded

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_04]: you can change your life

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_04]: completely as a way

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_04]: of moving forward

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: one might ask very well ask

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: whether that's a prudent thing to do

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: if my son came to me and asked

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: me that kind of a question

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I do

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: wait a second

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: slow down even though I'm a Christian

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I identify with this thing

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and I would think oh

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you know wait

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but to me

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: it means also

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: a kind of willingness

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: not to be

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: simply caught

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: in the stream

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and follow what's around me

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you said you articulate

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that in terms of creativity

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of being able

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: to see your future self

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the world's future self so to speak

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: in a different way

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and then this extraordinary

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: thing as making a wager

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: with your life

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to move in that

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: direction

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that in itself that ability

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to do that and

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the effects that some

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of the wagers of this sword

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: have had upon humanity

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to me is really actually extraordinary

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll emphasize what you said earlier

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_04]: about the book is that it's not necessarily

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_04]: none of these stories

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_04]: are a recipe for how to live

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_04]: one's life they're just stories

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_04]: and you have to the individual has to sort

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_04]: of decide but

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_04]: you know so no one suggests

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04]: just give up everything and

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04]: let the dead bury the dead

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_04]: but I'll give a counter example

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_04]: from the book you talk about

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: the Babagagita from Hinduism

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and Arjuna's discussion

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_04]: with Krishna on the battlefield

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Arjuna suddenly decides he doesn't want to

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_04]: kill his cousins even though

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_04]: he's on the righteous side of a war

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: and the cousins are on the bad side

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_04]: but Krishna explains the concept

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_04]: of Dharma like this is

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_04]: this is the right thing

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_04]: don't shirk now

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_04]: from what the right thing is

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_04]: what your Dharma is

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_04]: but then the flip side is you could argue

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Peter his quote-unquote Dharma

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: to use a Hindu term to describe Peter

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_04]: his Dharma was to be a fisherman

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_04]: and to live that life and live a good life that way

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_04]: the real critical thing is

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_04]: are you asking the right questions

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_04]: as opposed to are you changing your life radically

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's right

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and are you sufficiently informed

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in when you are

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: asking some of these questions

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: especially since we, I mean earlier times

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the life was lived

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in certain kinds of grooves

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: traditional societies

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you followed

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in the footsteps of

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: mainly your parents

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and under

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: extraordinary circumstances

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: were you able to break out of those

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: we no longer live in such societies

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: very mobile each of us

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: is making our own decisions

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: for our lives even though

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: under constraint of many forms

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of circumstances

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and in situations

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: as we modern folks

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: live

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to have at least some sense

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of what you are doing

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: when you are making

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: your choices

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and for me it's a question

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: do I just follow

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: my dream

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that I haven't sufficiently

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: thought through

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and know whether it has weight

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or do I step back

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and at different

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: points in my life

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: take resources that I need

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and try to reflect

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: about courses of life

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and then

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: take courage to act in a way

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that is more in sync

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: with

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: not just my dream or desire

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but something that has been

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: informed more deeply

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that will let me

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: avoid living a life that is too

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: light

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: unbearable lightness of being

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of that's always

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: on some surface

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it's maybe even fun

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and enjoyable but ultimately

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a foam

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's not a substance

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_04]: in the unbearable lightness of being

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_04]: just when the main character

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of deepens

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_04]: his relationships

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04]: including his relationship with himself

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and his life that's when he dies

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_04]: so in some

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04]: sense Milan

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Kondra is saying that

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_04]: when you are willing to change there is also

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: potentially going to be consequences

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_04]: that are unknown

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_04]: and could be not what you want

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_04]: but

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_04]: I think again it leads to the fact

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_04]: that are you asking the right questions

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_04]: and I think that's why I love how

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_04]: you have this not quite homework

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_04]: but these questions like

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_04]: for instance and this one is from chapter 1

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_04]: think back non-judgmentally

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_04]: over the last few days you say

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_04]: what questions have been on your mind

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_04]: write down your observations

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and then you say stepping back at what layer

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_04]: do you feel most comfortable

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_04]: where do you like to spend your time

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_04]: do any of the layers or reflections make you

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_04]: afraid

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_04]: and I think that's very interesting

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_04]: because why do you say

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_04]: why do you want to know

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_04]: or why do you ask yourself does anything make you afraid

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_04]: what does fear have to do with deciding

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_04]: if a path is worth living

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: well I think you need to articulate

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it so that you know that it's

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: actually present in operating

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe the fear is wise

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and is warning you

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: against something that is

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: true danger but maybe fear is foolish

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and is preventing you

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: from taking the path

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that actually would be

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: more difficult

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe a bit scary

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but much more promising

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I think this kind of taking stock

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of where I am

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: in an honest way

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: is important

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: for the right decisions

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to be made and fears are

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when it comes to

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: decisions that

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: mark our

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: trajectories of our entire life

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: they're understandable

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: now when I think

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was at the lessons

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm now 66 and I think

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: back and I should have been completely

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: paralyzed by making a choice

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: choices that I'm making

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: directing the arrow

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: my longing in particular

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: direction who knows

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: what would have happened

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: when you were young what did you want to do

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: when you grew up?

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: well when I was young

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty early on

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be a philosopher and a theologian

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: which is what I became

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not sure

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that when I was

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that kid if I were that kid

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: right now

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: not knowing what became of

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: whether I would have gone that

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that route I could have never

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: in million years imagined that

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I would be sitting at Yale

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: teaching

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: at a wonderful institution

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and yet

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of admire my

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: adolescence self

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: it was an unpopular thing to do

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and I did it

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody wanted to be like

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a millionaire or a doctor

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever or in my time

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: theologian would have been worse I was living in former Yugoslavia

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it was against the law

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah basically

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: against the law you have

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: doomed yourself to

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of meager existence

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe having to scrape your existence

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: doing something else so that you can do

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the thing that you really really enjoy

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_04]: but you know the fear there

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_04]: for you was important

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_04]: because it

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of moves

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_04]: the compass about what direction you should go

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_04]: so like obviously

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: there's fear you're going to live

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_04]: so on the one hand you could not have fear

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_04]: and you could say I can't do that

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_04]: that's just not done in my society

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_04]: or you could say listen

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_04]: this is what I want to do but fear tells me

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to make a meager life

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and I might be

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_04]: doing something against the government's

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_04]: laws the government was not

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_04]: in favor of religion at all

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I was a communist government back then

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_04]: and take Peter again as an example

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_04]: he could have said to Jesus I can't do that

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I need to bury my father

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_04]: but instead it's a meta way of looking at it

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I notice I'm feeling fear

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_04]: so why am I feeling that fear

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_04]: is it a constraint of society

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_04]: is it a constraint

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_04]: is it really the case that

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't leave right now

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_04]: like I think fear

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_04]: could be a meta way of breaking down

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_04]: what you initially thought was

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_04]: an immutable problem

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_04]: but actually turns out to have a solution

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_04]: oh there actually aren't

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_04]: you know it actually might be better

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_04]: for me to leave right now

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_04]: or for you I need to move

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_04]: to America at some point

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and pursue this there because it's a better

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_04]: place to do it

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_04]: so fear really could direct you

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I think that's quite right

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I fully agree

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with you and then one can work

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: through one's fear when one articulates

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: then one can also

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: take I mean this kind of taking stock

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: what I do how I spend time

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: for instance I mean one thing is for me

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to think about what's in my mind

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: what my desires are

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and what my

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: dreams are it's another thing

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to say well let's

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: sit down and see how I spend time

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: let's sit down and decide

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: where do I actually

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01]: when left to my own devices

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: where do I pour my energies

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and discover what actual

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: desires

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and proclivities are

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I can honor them

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I can also say you know that's

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: really not what I should be

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: doing I've got to wake up

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: how do I do that?

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and again a lot of it is

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_04]: questioning like you know

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_04]: the questions that you have at the end of each chapter

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_04]: you know like for instance right before part 3

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_04]: there's a page of questions

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_04]: and one of the questions is how should we

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_04]: live and so

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_04]: you're basically saying what ends

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_04]: should we seek through our agency

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_04]: what standard should we be held to

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_04]: and so on so

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_04]: this is kind of more on the

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_04]: when your perspective is on the societal level

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_04]: like you know what should we do

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and what's our

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_04]: or maybe not on the societal level

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_04]: what should we do to live a life worth living

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_04]: but what actions does that imply

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_04]: does that imply

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_04]: leaving life behind to reduce craving

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_04]: does that imply being an activist

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_04]: to make the world a better place

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and so on and these

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_04]: again our questions always

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_04]: worth asking like

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and you point out a very

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_04]: kind of common example

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_04]: is it worth it to binge on Netflix TV

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_04]: shows

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and on the one hand it sounds trivial

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_04]: to binge on Netflix TV shows

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_04]: and nobody should do it because that might not be

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_04]: life worth living but then I was thinking about it

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I love TV shows

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_04]: and I love hearing stories and watching stories

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and for me

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_04]: it's part of my life worth living

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I think although I guess I should always question it

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_04]: is watching stories

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_04]: and that's what I love about

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_04]: watching TV

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and the question is also not

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: whether one should ever binge

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_01]: on a particular series

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: as I did most recently

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: watching The Empress

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you... Oh I haven't watched that one

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I really liked it, it's only

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01]: six episodes in this first

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: first season it was pretty

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought pretty good

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that's barely a binge by the way

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I binged on lots of 120 episodes

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: well but in a

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: sense felt to me like two evenings

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or something like that were completely

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: claimed by this series

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think it was a good use

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of my time I've learned something

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoyed the story

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and the struggles that are being portrayed

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's a matter of

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: what kinds of balance I find

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: in my life whether my

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is my life one simple

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: binging right that may be

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: a really

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: extreme way to ask that question

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but that is

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think how some lives

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: tend to be

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of simply following the

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of internal cravings

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of those may be fantastic

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and actually as I mentioned earlier

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the goal is actually for your cravings

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to fit exactly

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the life as it ought to be

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: lived right so that

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: what you deeply desire

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is in sync with what you

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_01]: have found that you should be doing

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: with your life and maybe that's for you

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the case. Yeah and maybe

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_04]: you know and it's interesting you start off the book

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_04]: talking about the question

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: like you don't say this is the life worth

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_04]: living but you're again

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_04]: using examples and questions and

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_04]: you capitalize question

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_04]: but I'll get to that in a second

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_04]: it's really how you pursue

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_04]: the questioning of a life worth living

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_04]: and you give these stories to tell

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_04]: from history to tell how different

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_04]: people, characters

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_04]: ask these questions but I

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_04]: like the fact that you capitalize question because

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_04]: for I never noticed this before

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_04]: but the word quest is in

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_04]: question and

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if that was intentional

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_04]: by the creators of language

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_04]: but yeah you know

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_04]: it is a quest like how

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_04]: one lives one life is a quest

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and it starts

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_04]: with the question of what am I pursuing

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_04]: what is the goal of this quest is the question

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I just noticed this for the first time

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_04]: when I'm reading your book maybe because questions stood out

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_04]: because it was capitalized all the time

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_04]: but have you ever thought about that?

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah no we

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: did and I think there is

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: a sense in which

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: our whole life is

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_01]: a quest right

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we never

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: fully get

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to answer the question so that

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: we can just pursue that

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: answer. We always

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: also question

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: how

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_01]: even if we are set a direction

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for ourselves how to

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: live that in the here and

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the now so that this type

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of if you want

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: reflective accompaniment

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of life by asking

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: questions

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and seeking answers

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: is really fundamental to our life

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: you know Socrates

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and his proverbial unexamined

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: life is not worth living

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it applies

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: if it doesn't mean simply let me analyze

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: myself right because

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that kind of life may be

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: end up being tried actually

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but unexamined life is not worth

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_01]: living if you go in a particular

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: direction without you examining

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: where it is going how are you getting

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: there and whether that

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: befits who you are and who

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you are supposed to be that

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't turns out generally

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: not to be life worth living

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah and you know I

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_04]: want to ask some specific questions

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_04]: about some some words

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and phrase used like you describe the difference

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_04]: between friendship and companionship

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and I thought that was a very interesting

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_04]: distinction do you want to describe

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it seems to me that friendship

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_01]: at least as we how we

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: use it in the book it describes

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: something much deeper some kind of a shared

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: fundamental orientation

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in an

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01]: endeavor in which we

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: engage together

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think for

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the examination

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of our lives for

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about who we are

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and who we should be it's this

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: kinds of relationship to others

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that we need well please see we can have

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: many other kinds of relationship but this is

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: essential companionships can be

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it can be much more superficial

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it can be fun great thing

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to do

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: pursue

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_01]: seriously

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a vision of life worth

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: living if you're

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: simply on your own

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we see ourselves

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and we see the world better in company

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of others I think sometimes

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's hard to find time

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to keep that time

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to keep that commitment

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and companionships

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or friendship rather with others

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: is essential for that

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: for that project it's no accident

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that monastic

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: communities were founded

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or that

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you know people gathered in synagogues

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: regularly

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_01]: or that people went to churches

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and so forth so that

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: these kind of

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_01]: sense of belonging together

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and together exploring is

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: essential right so it's a

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_04]: it's like

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe I can also tell me

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_04]: from describing the difference correctly

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_04]: like companionship might be

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: two people who sit next

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_04]: to each other at a workplace

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_04]: at a corporation and so they might like

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_04]: each other and their questions that they have

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_04]: for each other is how can we do better

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_04]: work or enjoy work

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_04]: or you know be more effective at

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_04]: work so they're sharing

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_04]: a more simple question

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_04]: whereas friendship they're sharing

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_04]: the deeper question of

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_04]: are we

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_04]: both living a life worth living

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and how do we do that

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah or they might go

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the other companionship might be

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I might go after work I might have a drink

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and have really

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a good time

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: which nothing against

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: either of these two forms of companionship

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think we need

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: generally more and

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you describe it quite well what that more might be

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_04]: and then another thing

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_04]: that was really fascinating

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_04]: like I used to always

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: so you basically

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_04]: describe Pima Chaudhren's

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_04]: use of the word regret

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_04]: and it always used to be kind of

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_04]: you know when I was growing up

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and so when everyone say oh I have no regrets

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_04]: about how I live my life

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_04]: and I realized for myself

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_04]: that I actually had lots of regrets

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and I was relieved to see in your

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_04]: book what Pima Chaudhren said about regret

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_04]: that that also

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_04]: almost could be like a compass

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_04]: to show you what direction you're going

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_04]: maybe you could describe the four steps

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_04]: of regret that she talks about

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I should re-read those

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't I know exactly

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_01]: what you're talking about

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: do you know where the

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll find it because you know I know what you mean

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I often have to re-read my own

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_04]: writing to remember

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_04]: to remember the things I

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_04]: wrote

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_04]: and some of it

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah here we go

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_04]: she says

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_04]: the elemental struggle

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_04]: is with our feeling of being wrong

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_04]: with our guilt and shame

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_04]: at what we are and she says there are four factors

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and first there's regret

[00:55:08] but

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_04]: then you say it's not wallowing

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_04]: in guilt it's liberating

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_04]: because you admit that you're wrong and you're fine with that

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_04]: you're not trying to give up your

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_04]: self-defense mechanisms

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and the second one is

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_04]: recognizing your personal failures for what they are

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_04]: you refrain but you refrain

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_04]: compassionately you don't yell at yourself

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_04]: oh I can't believe I did that

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_04]: damn it why did I do that

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_04]: and then the third

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_04]: is you basically

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_04]: decide not to do it again

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_04]: and basically that's the third

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and the fourth is you decide not

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_04]: to keep doing these errors

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_04]: and not to do them again

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so that's one mode

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of dealing with failures

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in variety of forms

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of failures

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_01]: misopportunities or

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_01]: something like that in life

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah different traditions have different ways of doing it

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's very helpful

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: especially not to

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: let regret kind of hold you captive

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but rather to

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of regret lightly enough

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can move

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: positively forward

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know in the Christian tradition

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a sense of

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: repentance

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a sense of asking for

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: apologizing to others

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a sense if you've done something wrong

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of restore that

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which you have

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_01]: injured by that

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and the sense of

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: my own apology

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: my own regrets is already

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_01]: a first step

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: towards something new because unless

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I recognize something as wrong

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't turn away from it

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think regrets are

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_01]: when properly handled

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_01]: are very useful and important

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_01]: things because

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_01]: they confer value

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or they express

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that we value life as we have lived

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and therefore not

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_01]: want to have lived it

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in a kind of mindless

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: way or ways that hurt others

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: or hurt ourselves

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_01]: so regret

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: serves a very important faction and most of the traditions

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: have a way

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of dealing with

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: failure to achieve our

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_01]: intended way of life

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_04]: and I like how

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_04]: she views regret

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_04]: like it's very important to have her regrets

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_04]: compassionately

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_04]: like you don't yell at yourself

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_04]: like I shouldn't have done that

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_04]: but you use it as a way

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_04]: to move closer to yourself

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_04]: by understanding

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_04]: or reframing these actions from the past

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when I talk

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in different things that I do

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I often speak quite a bit about

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: forgiveness it's one of the themes

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: on which I've published and when I speak

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really interesting

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: how attentive audiences become

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: when you start talking about

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01]: forgiveness

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and because we all have this experience

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: often we don't want to admit it

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: but deep down we all have experience of having

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_01]: failed and having

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_01]: not being able either to forgive

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or to be forgiven what we have done

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and almost regularly

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I encounter the question

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: well but what do I do

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_01]: when I can't forgive myself

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and what do you say

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so I

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: respond as a Christian theologian

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and in the Christian Bible

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: in the New Testament there is a very

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting line

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_01]: which says

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when your heart accuses you

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_01]: know that God is greater

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: than your heart

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: meaning the God who has forgiven

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you is greater than

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: your heart

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in some ways there is a kind of

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: word that has been said over you

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and appreciation

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: you can make an analogy to somebody loves you

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_01]: completely irregardless

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of whether you have committed this

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the made-up failure

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_01]: or not

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can then get out of it

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01]: into light with the help of

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_01]: just that love directed toward you

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_04]: since you're a Christian theologian

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_04]: let me ask you a question

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_04]: from the New Testament about that

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and so there is the famous story

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_04]: in the New Testament and correct me

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_04]: if I make any details wrong

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_04]: but there is Jesus with the

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_04]: adulteress

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_04]: so there is a woman that the crowd is about to stone

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_04]: and Jesus

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_04]: basically sits in between them

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and the woman

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_04]: in between the crowd that wants to kill this woman

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_04]: and the woman

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_04]: and he essentially says anybody here

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_04]: who hasn't committed a single sin

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_04]: you can throw the first stone

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_04]: and then he just kind of ignores what's happening

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_04]: and one by one

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_04]: they leave

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_04]: because they've all committed a sin

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and he himself says I too can't

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_04]: throw the first stone

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_04]: so he says to the woman just go home

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_04]: and don't do it again

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_04]: so do you think he is also saying that

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_04]: you know he has committed a sin

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_04]: but he loves himself

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_04]: and so he's forgiven himself

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_04]: like what do you think he's saying about himself

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: in that story

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that the story

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is he says

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: neither do I condemn you

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: ah ok

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: he doesn't put himself in with the crowd

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: he doesn't put himself in

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: with a crowd who would potentially

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: who have come to throw the stones

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: they cannot condemn you

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: but I will not condemn you either

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: so I think he puts himself

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: on the side of the mercy

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's a part in this

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: story where he writes with his finger

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: on the ground

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's mysterious what

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: was he writing

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: whether there is any sense

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: in which we can divine that

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and there are all sorts of conjectures

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe he was writing their sins

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: on the ground so that they

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't throw that first stone

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: at her

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and why do you think the author of that

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_04]: decided to include

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_04]: that detail and not say what he was

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: writing I have no idea

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: it has puzzled interpreters

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think one interpretation is as good

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: as another because nobody knows

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_04]: what do you think the Stoics on the other

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: hand thought about

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: regret since

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_04]: they were very much about

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: living a life of virtue

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_04]: if let's say there's something

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_04]: from their past that they disapproved of

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: how do you think they dealt with

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: regret I'd have to refresh

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: my knowledge of

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Stoicism but as emotion

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this kind of negative emotion

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: just like fear or hope

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: my understanding is that

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: they would want to simply

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: diminish it as an emotion

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you concentrate on the

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: presence fear and hope

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: are not something that you should worry

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about therefore also

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: how you deal with the past

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you would deal in a kind of analogous

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: way so it's almost like

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_04]: it's almost like both kind of

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_04]: solutions are worthy

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_04]: of following but on one side you have

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_04]: it's okay to have regrets but just deal

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_04]: with yourself compassionately

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_04]: and on the other hand

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_04]: the Stoics or maybe Buddha

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_04]: they're not saying

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_04]: don't have regrets but just

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_04]: it's not important to dwell in it

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: you know move forward and from now

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_04]: from this point onwards live a life of

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: of virtue or live a life of

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_04]: contemplation or you know whatever

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_04]: your your faith is

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah and you've got also

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe in the Christian and

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I understand correctly

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the Jewish tradition as well

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that there is a kind of

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: mercy there that

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that you ought to have toward

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself and that God has

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: toward you and

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: since God's word counts

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: God's decision about your

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: life is fundamental then

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you can incorporate that

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: mercy toward yourself into your own

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: life those would be some of the

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: alternatives what do you think about

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_04]: self-talk like for instance

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: you indirectly refer to it in that

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_04]: section on regret where you say

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_04]: you know have compassion to yourself don't

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_04]: say in your head I'm such an idiot

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I did this you know so that's

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_04]: an example of negative self-talk

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_04]: and that sort of sticks to us

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_04]: when we're constantly expressing hatred

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_04]: towards ourselves as opposed to compassion

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: towards ourselves do you think there's a role

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: for self-talk in

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_04]: how we live our lives

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you know maybe some

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: self-talk is the mode of stepping so to say

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: outside of oneself and looking at oneself

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and often

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: scolding oneself right for

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: what one has done there may

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: be a positive element

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in that one identifies

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the wrong right

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but staying with this self-scolding

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and constant

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: nagging at

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: oneself seems to me

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: not really productive and not

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly useful

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think either the

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Buddhist or the Christian way

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of dealing with it is

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: much healthier

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: either kind of

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: letting the things simply pass

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: as something that is passed

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: as often one is taught

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in Buddhist meditation to do

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: or recognizing

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: separate yourself from that deed

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you are greater than that deed

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you yourself are more valuable

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and your entire life

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: has not been defined by

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and ought not to be defined

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you ought not to define your life

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: by that wrong that you have committed

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: your loved

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_04]: yeah and also it's interesting looking at the

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_04]: let's call it the more hedonistic

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_04]: approach like Oscar Wilde

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: regretted squandering his talent

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in the pursuit of

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_04]: pleasure we don't really know whether

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_04]: he hated himself for it

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_04]: or he loved himself for it but he did use it as

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_04]: a formula for change

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_04]: you know when he got out of jail he

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_04]: probably still enjoyed the same pleasures

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_04]: but also shifted

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_04]: a little bit his focus

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_04]: and so he used it as an agent

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: of change inside of himself

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_04]: so that's interesting also

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah or you can do I think it's one of the options

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we mentioned in the book also

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: just forget about the past

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: concentrate on future you can do better

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you can try better

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you can try harder

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: you know I the way I sort of

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_04]: again it seems like almost like a cliche to say

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't have any regrets

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_04]: and a lot of people say it all

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_04]: if I regret anything from the past I wouldn't be in the life I'm in today

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_04]: but

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_04]: for myself I know I had regrets because

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_04]: I have this weird thing where

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_04]: if I'm thinking something that I regret

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I have a tendency to blurt out

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_04]: almost like a Tarence syndrome

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I sort of blurred out a curse

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_04]: and my kids used to have

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_04]: their friends come over when they were little

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_04]: and sometimes I'd just be sitting on my computer

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_04]: and I'd curse myself

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_04]: and my kids would say to their friends

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_04]: oh daddy just does that

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_04]: sometimes

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_04]: and then I realized oh I do regret things

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't say oh I don't regret anything

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_04]: but anyway

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_04]: you know

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: I really love the book

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_04]: it's got me asking a lot of questions

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_04]: you know and as you

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: put it you capitalize the Q

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_04]: and question what is

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_04]: what is a life worth living

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_04]: and the book of course is called life worth living

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_04]: a guide to what matters most

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Miroslav Wolff

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_04]: that's you, Matthew

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Croceman and Ryan McNally

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Lins are the three authors

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_04]: why does Yale have all these courses on happiness

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_04]: there's that other woman Laurie Santos

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_04]: who has a course in happiness too which is very popular

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_04]: what's up with Yale and courses on happiness

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: well

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a distinction between two of our courses

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: very friendly terms

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: with Laurie and Laurie has

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: endorsed

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: she brought it back

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Laurie is asking a very important question

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that many of the

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yale

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_01]: undergrads

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and most colleges that I know

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: experience all the time

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: they find themselves

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: inadequate to the task

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: of living a life

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: college life

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: as many people find themselves

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: in life more generally

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and they need resources

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and helps how to get from point A

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to point B

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you have another course

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in Stanford course design your life

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not from psychological standpoint

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as Laurie does

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: her class

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: but from the standpoint of design

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how do I

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: design my life such that I can get

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: from point A to point B

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and I personally think both of these questions

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: are really important you have some

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: technical quote unquote skills

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to live well

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you have at the same time

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to have some psychological

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: skills capacities in order to

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to do so

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: our course is different

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in that we don't ask the question

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: how do I get from point A

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to point B

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we are asking question what point B

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: is worth getting to

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the central question

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of the whole book

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: they're not

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: mutually exclusive alternatives

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: both need to be there

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but we feel that in the larger conversation

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: both in the

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: broader culture and also

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in the university kinds of settings

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that this

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: question of the B

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of what B

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: is worth getting to

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: has been neglected and this

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: book tries to elevate

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that question to the forefront

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: of our attention

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_04]: well I love the book it got me

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: really thinking about a lot of these questions

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_04]: also I encourage people to look

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_04]: at the sections

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_04]: in each chapter where

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_04]: almost the homework like you asking

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_04]: these questions so people just aren't passively

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_04]: reading you have to answer these questions yourself

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_04]: as the reader

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_04]: as you read this book and it's

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_04]: very valuable book such great stories

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_04]: so many questions it got me

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: thinking and considering

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_04]: I really appreciate

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_04]: coming on the podcast and answering

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: my questions to you about the book

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_04]: but I also just love

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_04]: all the stories in the book and the people

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_04]: you mentioned and so on

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_04]: we only touch a little on that but it is

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_04]: really great stories so thank you

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you so much for having me

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a wonderful podcast that you have

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was just a pleasure talking to you

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_04]: thank you