"Nomadic Matt" Kepnes on Traveling the World for $75 a Day

[00:00:06] Is it possible to travel around the world, live around the world, do remote work anywhere you want, and just spend $75 a day or less? I think when I was younger, I really wish I had done it. And of course, with inflation, probably when I was younger, you could have done it for less than, I don't know, $30 a day even. My guest today, Matt Kepnes, he's known as Nomadic Matt.

[00:00:32] He's been traveling the world for decades, and he even wrote a book 10 years ago, How to Travel the World on $50 a Day or Less. He's updated it. It just came out, How to Travel the World on $75 a Day or Less. And it's definitely possible. And look, I'm going to share this episode with my daughters because maybe they want to travel around the world, but they're afraid it's too expensive. And there's all sorts of tricks like on finding flights, finding places to stay.

[00:01:00] And of course, it's so much easier now to find remote work. And Matt gave some extra tips on that that I haven't thought of. But I wish I had done this. I was always so obsessed with the straight line, oh, I got to get through graduate school. Now I got to make some money. Now I got to rise up in my career. And I always kind of put off traveling. And now, of course, during the course of the past 30 years of career, I've traveled a bit.

[00:01:29] But the beauty of travel is you really can kind of learn and see new things in this open-minded way without all the stresses and responsibilities that age brings. And if it's truly possible to do this cheap and have all these amazing experiences, I bet your career would be much more successful anyway. And you'd be so much more well-rounded and open-minded. And I guess for me, reading did that quite a bit when I was younger.

[00:01:59] But I do wish I had traveled more. I had never had any money at all before I started my first company and then eventually sold it. I had zero dollars in the bank all through my 20s. I thought that was – I wouldn't be able to do this kind of travel, but you can. And well, anyway, let's have Matt tell us why.

[00:02:25] This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is The James Altucher Show. Matt, when you first came on this podcast 10 years ago, and it was when your first book came out, How to Travel the World on $50 a Day.

[00:02:53] And now this – you've rewritten the entire book, but now it's called How to Travel the World on $75 a Day. Is that because of inflation? Yeah. I mean, the last edition of this book came out in 2017, and so much of the world has changed since then. Prices naturally rise, but COVID-related inflation has just changed the cost of travel so greatly that it was time – Like 50%? Yeah.

[00:03:23] COVID not only changed pricing around the world, but so much of the travel industry was decimated during COVID that a lot of companies don't exist anymore. A lot of ways to save money don't exist anymore. And then the demand is so high for travel and continues to remain so high for travel. 2024. So even more people travel around the world than 2019, which was the peak before COVID.

[00:03:50] And so there's just so much demand that companies don't have any reason to lower prices. Is that because, like, during COVID, everybody kind of – your nickname has always been Nomadic Matt, and this is like your social media names and so on. Is it because the nomadic lifestyle now has become much more common since COVID? Like, everybody works from home. People kind of gave up entire careers and realized they could do more effective work remotely.

[00:04:18] And even AI has allowed freelancers to kind of – a lot more freelancers to flourish and have a more nomadic lifestyle. Is that increasing the demand? I would say so. I would say it's a lot of factors. You know, I mean, I once had this hostel owner tell me, you know, we took on a lot of debt to stay open during COVID. You know, we had years. And I owned a hostel too. And we, you know, and so you have to make up that losses, right?

[00:04:45] So you have a lot of small places just raising prices to pay off debt. But I think the digital nomad stuff in certain destinations does play a huge factor. Like, if you look at Bali, it has way more people. Median, parts of Mexico. Like, locally, Mexico City. Like, locally, that's going to play a big difference.

[00:05:11] Like, and is it a lot more possible or easier to live in some of these, let's say, cheaper countries because more people are doing, you know, either remote work or freelancer-type lifestyles, which wasn't as possible 10 years ago? Like, now you could be like this graphic designer and live in the cheapest countries in the world and use AI to do your designs and use, you know, basically email and social media to get all your clients.

[00:05:40] Like, you could live anywhere in the world. Yeah. I always tell people that traveling around the world is cheaper than living in the States, right? You know, if you look at 75 bucks a day, that is roughly a little under 30K a year. I'm not good at math, so 360. Let's just, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's like 27 and change. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:02] Most people in the U.S., if you add up your total cost of living, that's more, like, that's less than you spend, right? So I always tell people, like, go travel. My friend Lauren just got on the news because she couldn't afford a house in the U.S., so she bought one in Italy. So that kind of went viral.

[00:06:23] But, like, it's so much cheaper overseas, especially when you travel, that, you know, you can easily go live in Thailand or, you know, India or Bali or Mexico or Colombia for a lot less than you can in the States. Well, you know, I want to get to kind of, like, how you got into this in a second. Like, you know, I remember your story. Like, you basically were working some shitty job, like, for an advertising agency, something like that.

[00:06:53] And you hated it. You gave up. And you started traveling. And you realized this was a possible thing. And that's kind of changed your life and then led to all these – you learned so much. Then you started giving, you know, tours, showing people how to do this and on and on. But I just want to kind of, like, start this off so people see the value that you have learned over these years.

[00:07:17] You know, what's – if you could do just one money-saving tip or if you had time to just give one money-saving tip to people – and I know this is almost a cliche question, but what would that tip be for reducing expenses so much they could travel on $75 a day? Money-saving tip, like, before you go? So – Or even, like, while you're going. Like, what's the biggest kind of – and even in the book you say there's no, like, one magic ninja trick to do this. But, like, what does seem, like, amazing that nobody knows?

[00:07:48] I think the biggest, like, money-saving travel hack is the most obvious one. And that is just be flexible. People think that, you know, travel is expensive, right? They look at flights and they go, oh, I can't afford this trip, right? But every day there are thousands of deals happening for airfare, hotels, resorts, cruises, tours. Like, you name it, it is happening.

[00:08:15] And so if you can just be flexible with either when you go or where you go, you are going to find a deal. In my inbox this morning, you know, I could subscribe to all these newsletters. Cheap flights to Japan in this month, you know. So cheap flights to Ireland in October. Like, as long as you're kind of willing to not be so rigid, you will find the deal. They happen all the time. Okay. So let's start with the cheap flights. So, like, let's say I wanted to go to India. Okay.

[00:08:43] That's going to be, like, over $1,000 or even $2,000 flying coach to India. Yeah. But, like, in terms of being flexible, if I just say, hey, I'm here, I'll leave on two hours notice, just tell me when there's a super cheap flight. Like, how does someone do that? Yeah. So there's a couple ways you can do that. First, I would consider looking at, like, points and miles. Like, you know, look at your credit card points.

[00:09:11] You know, if you can pay off your credit card bill every month, like, you should definitely be earning points. And so you can use those points to pay for a flight. There's always economy award space available. So you can just sort of look at the calendar. So just by the way, so I don't get miles just by flying a lot. I can get miles by just having a regular credit card that's linked to my miles account and always use that credit card for all my expenditures.

[00:09:40] It's something like a penny per mile, something like that. And you can build up miles that way. Yeah. The value of the miles is sort of in the beholder and we can get in the weeds on that. But it really, like, you know, if you have, like, a Chase Sapphire or a Capital One venture or an MX, these are in points that you can then transfer to various airlines that you can then use to redeem for free flights. Right? So, you know, if you pay off your credit card each month, you know, you're going to spend the money anyway.

[00:10:09] So might as well earn points for it. But let's say I don't have that much miles. And I remember vaguely, like, there's some thing where if you don't care about the hour or the day that you're taking off, you can get alerted for super cheap flights.

[00:10:53] Yeah. You don't have the time to continuously search airfare inventory. So I just outsource it to all these companies that hire people to look and use AI to scrape airfare. And then they tell me when I should go. Like, how cheap? And if I'm flexible about all the routes and everything, like, how cheap can I do it? Like, let's say something that's normally $1,000, how cheap do you think it can get?

[00:11:19] I mean, you could find, I have seen fares to Europe peak season for, like, $300 round trip. Wow, round trip. And let's say one way. Because I'm traveling for $75 a day forever, maybe. Yeah. I mean, one way, like, probably a couple hundred.

[00:11:36] You know, one thing that has definitely changed since COVID is that there are a lot more budget airlines flying internationally across, like, intercontinentally, right? So, like, now you can go from the U.S. to Japan for a couple hundred bucks on an airline called Zip Air. There's an airline out of Dubai called Fly Dubai that has really cheap flights to Africa, the Middle East, into Asia.

[00:12:03] Air Asia goes everywhere to, like, Australia. So, you can piece together these sort of budget airlines around the world and just save, you know, like, 50%, 70% off you would a major carrier. You know, but I remember there used to be a thing with the airlines where you could say, look, I'm flexible when I'm going to travel. Let me know. Like, didn't they used to kind of, like, at the last minute giveaway deals if a flight wasn't full?

[00:12:32] Or does that not exist anymore? That doesn't really exist anymore. You don't really see last minute fares or fare deals. Like, people talk about, oh, what if I just fly standby, right? Nah, flights are so full and they're going to reward loyalty people, like, loyalty program members before anything. Like, you just can't just rock up and, you know, be like, here's a hundred bucks, you know, and they'll take it because it's an empty seat. They'd rather fly it empty.

[00:13:01] So, and the reason I'm focusing on this, because you even mentioned in the book, this is often the obstacle people have. They feel like their first reaction is the flights. It's too expensive to get where I want to go. But if, but yeah, and your point, your very good point is be flexible and be creative. Like, let's say, is there some, like cruises often have like super cheap deals. Is there some place I could take a cheap cruise to? And then for like, can I take a cheap cruise to the Mediterranean and from, or even to Alaska?

[00:13:31] And then get to Siberia cheaply and then take a train to Europe. Like, would that be cheaper? Is there anything that's super cheap? Well, I think that, you know, the time value of money and all that, or the money value of your time might be not worth such a long trip. But, you know, I like Google flights. So if you go to Google flights and you type in your home airport and then just type in everywhere, it will bring up a map of the world.

[00:13:58] And it will show you how much it costs to fly anywhere in the world from your home airport. So you can piece together something based on kind of what you just said, based on that, right? Let's say you, your end destination is Istanbul, right? And the direct flight is like, I don't know, $700. But you can fly to like Paris for like 200 bucks.

[00:14:23] And then you can take a budget airline for, you know, 100 bucks from Paris to Istanbul. So if you're willing to connect, you can play with these flight routes to find a much like cheaper flight than just a direct one. Take a quick break. If you like this episode, I'd really, really appreciate it. It means so much to me. Please share it with your friends and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:14:51] Email me at Alcantara at gmail.com and tell me why you subscribed. Thanks. If I wanted to live on $75 a day, and by the way, I say live as opposed to travel. So that's maybe a big difference, but I would go to someplace like India where you could basically live on like five bucks a day or 10 bucks a day.

[00:15:18] I think, I mean, I don't know how much a hostel is in India to stay there, but like where you stay with some family that's like couch surfing or Airbnb. Like if you go to a cheap country, what's the cheapest you could do? Well, I mean, you could do it, India for, you know, if you're staying for free and eating a local food and, you know, 10, 20 bucks a day.

[00:15:41] I think India is probably one of the cheapest destinations in the world between the exchange rate and just the cost of living. You could probably travel there for like 40 bucks a day. But if you really want to be like ultra backpacker, like cheap traveler, you can probably get it down to like 20 bucks a day. Yeah. So if you average that out with like, like what's the cheapest in Europe, like Western Europe? Cheapest in Western Europe? Yeah. Probably Portugal.

[00:16:09] And that's probably going to set you back like 50, 60 euros a day. So, okay. So that's still around 75 bucks a day or I don't know what the exchange rate is now. But, uh, uh, so where, where do people, but, but you're kind of talking about with traveling all around traveling the world. And you're saying with travel costs included, you know, it could be up to $75 a day. Cause once you're there, like once in you're in Europe, you know, what do you do? Yeah.

[00:16:37] You know, like you said, um, the flight is often the barrier, you know, but as we've said, like there's many ways to get fly cheap. And when you fly over there, um, and you land, I like to help people like travel like you live. Like you don't eat out every meal at home. I do. Right. Okay. Well, you know, most people, okay, well, most people don't eat out. Right.

[00:17:01] So go grocery shopping, go picnicking, you know, you don't have to eat out every meal. So you can lower your food costs that way. Take public transportation. Um, you know, walk, like there's so many free activities, do free activities. So like, there's a lot you can do to fill your day without having to spend a lot of money.

[00:17:21] Uh, when it comes to accommodation, which is obviously a huge cost, you know, if, if you don't want to stay in hostile dorm rooms, which are obviously very inexpensive, uh, consider, like you said, couch surfing or a similar website where you can stay with locals and a hosted family for free. Um, Airbnb rooms, uh, rather than get your own place, stay in someone's guest room. That's often very cheap.

[00:17:46] Um, and you know, there's all sorts of like home exchange services and house sitting services that you can do, um, where like, let's say you're going on vacation, James, and you want someone to watch your house. Sometimes I, as a traveler will come and watch your home while you're away. Of course there's security and the we've been vetted and IDs have been verified and all that stuff, background checks.

[00:18:08] Um, so there's a lot of ways to reduce your costs, um, as you travel, uh, with accommodation, with food, with activities, you know, what's wrong with just wandering around and sitting in a park with a book. Right. Like not everything has to be like, we're going to do something right. Most people don't do anything in there. Yeah. I totally agree with you. Like I, I actually hate going to the tourist things like, and I think many people do.

[00:18:35] Like I remember one time I took my daughter with me, I had to go to Paris on work and I took my daughter with me and she wanted to see the Mona Lisa. So we passed by the Louvre and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to be in and out of there in 15 minutes or less. We're just going to go in a straight line to the Mona Lisa. You're going to see it. We're going to turn around and we're going to leave as quickly as possible just to check that box. And then the rest of the day, we just walked around and hung out. Yeah.

[00:19:04] And Paris is such a beautiful city. You know, some of my favorite memories in Paris and I go quite often, it's never like the Louvre or the Dorsey. You know, it's, it's like, I found this random park, you know, and like everyone was having this beautiful picnic. And I met some people like, or I wandered into this amazing seafood restaurant. Like it's all like this, the things that happened through chance. Then like, oh, like my favorite memory was fighting the crowd to see the Mona Lisa.

[00:19:34] That's no one's favorite memory. Like right now, like, so when you stay in Paris, do you still keep it to 75 bucks a day? As a, as travel writer, I tend to spend more money because I do everything. So to help you, the visitor know where the best deals are, I go make tons of mistakes and spend, you know, do everything to be like, okay, like don't do this, do that.

[00:19:59] Um, but oftentimes I will like to prove that you can do this on $75 a day. I do it to be like, here's my video of like, here's how, what I ate, how much I spent on transportation, how I saved money on accommodation, but you can do it. And just to, just to, to, to roll back the story a little bit, can you talk about how, when you first, I mean, you changed your life and that you were working the corporate job that wouldn't have allowed you more than like two or three weeks vacation.

[00:20:28] You really couldn't travel the world. Like what changed? What, what, what turned you into the superhero you are now? Nomadic Matt. Uh, yeah. So I, I was working in healthcare admin, uh, after college, I got a job, um, uh, doing just clerical work at a hospital in Boston. And like you said, I, I had like a couple of weeks vacation a year. Um, wasn't really an exciting job.

[00:20:56] I didn't really think that was my career healthcare administration. Um, but I paid the bills. Um, and then I took a trip to Thailand, uh, with a buddy of mine in 2005. And it was there that I met a bunch of backpackers. Um, and I was just fascinated by the fact that these people were just traveling for as long as the money lasted. And, you know, we were on this way to this temple in, uh, the Northern city of Chiang Mai.

[00:21:24] And we were just kind of talking and they were, you know, this is January, uh, 2005 and, you know, they're Europeans. Uh, so they got a ton of vacation time. And then there were like a couple of Canadian backpackers who were just traveling for like a year. And they were just like, I can't believe you took all your vacation in January. What are you going to do the rest of the year? And I was like, didn't really think about it actually. I guess do nothing. And that kind of, that thought stayed with me for a little bit. And so I would travel with my friend, Scott.

[00:21:54] And then when we got back to Bangkok, I made him come and stay with me on Kosan Road, which is like the big backpacker street in Bangkok. And I was like, I wanted to like pretend to be a backpacker. I was so inspired. And I just loved it. We actually met a ton of people. Uh, some of them came to our next destination with us. And I was like, I love this freedom. And so on our last place in, uh, in, uh, Thailand, we went to this island called Chiang Mai. No, sorry. Koh Samui. And I went there. Beautiful place.

[00:22:23] By the way, the White Lotus season three is taking place there. Yeah. Yeah. I did not stay at the Four Seasons. Um, I was at a much cheaper, uh, hotel. I was at a yoga retreat. Super cheap. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, Scott didn't want to wander. So I went wandering and I just sat by this beach all day. It was this beautiful beach. And I was just like, no, I'm going to, I'm going to go home and quit my job and go travel for a year. I was finishing an MBA at the time. So like it felt like a good break.

[00:22:53] So I was like, you know, I'll finish the degree. I'll travel. I'll, I'll be like these backpackers and I'll go back and get a corporate job. And, uh, the white picket fence and all that jazz. And, uh, yeah, I went away and I just kept traveling. I mean, it's funny because like every time I have to travel to something, I'm really dreading it in the weeks and months beforehand.

[00:23:19] Like for instance, I'm, I'm going to Norway for some stuff in, in a couple of weeks. And it's almost to the point where I want to cancel it. I know I'm not going to for anybody from Norway listening to this. I'm not going to cancel it. But, and once I get there, I love it and never want, and, and it's just, it's so freeing that feeling of traveling. Cause you feel disconnected from like the decades of life you built up in your home.

[00:23:44] And there's something very freeing about that, that feeling, you know, and you, you get to see things that are almost the same culture as yours, but not. And it's like, you know, 10,000 miles away or however long. And I don't know, there's something, there's something very beautiful about traveling and you've, you've tapped into that. Like you, you do it all the time. Like those first few years, how, how often, how, what percentage of the year were you away? I mean, on that first trip, I was gone for 18 months.

[00:24:14] Wow. Yeah. So I left in July, 2006, and I didn't come back until the end of January, 2008. And how did you survive? Like, how did you now, admittedly you were doing it on, you know, $50 a day. And like your first book alludes to, but, but, or less, but how did you have money to, to do it? Like, I never was able to save money when I was younger. I lived like a pauper, you know, I, I had been saving money.

[00:24:43] You know, I had my 401k and all that jazz. Um, you know, I'm my employer match. And then when I decided to, to quit and do this, I, I moved into a hourly position at the hospital, just, you know, basic entry. Like I left my salary role. Um, and you know, when you walk into a, like a hospital, you ask like, what floor is this unit on? And somebody goes fifth floor. I did that.

[00:25:09] Um, and I just, yeah, it was easy and allowed for overtime. So I just, I worked, I went to school and I worked and I went to school and I worked and I just saved and saved and saved. Um, I moved back in with my parents for like six, six months before I left. Uh, and so that allowed me to save about 30 K between my previous savings, um, the overtime and just cutting my expenses as drastically as I could.

[00:25:40] And, and that, uh, the 30 K allowed for 18 months of just nonstop travel. Like how many countries did you visit? Well, uh, not a lot. I think on that first trip, let's see one, maybe like 10 or 12. Cause what ended up happening is I ended up living in Bangkok for a good nine months of, of that. Um, and so my goal was to have 20 K for the trip and 10 K to come home with.

[00:26:09] Um, and then. Did you make money while you were traveling? Yeah. And then, cause about eight months into the trip, I was like, I actually want to go back to Europe. Um, next year I'm going to need more money. So I ended up teaching English in, uh, Thailand for, for March to November of 2007. Um, and how did you get that gig?

[00:26:34] Like, did you just put up an ad, like learn English and like wealthy Thai people wanted their kids to learn English or like what, how do you do that? Uh, there's a lot of like online resources, uh, like just job boards where language schools would post. Um, so I just applied online and they're pretty easy to get. Honestly, I'm teaching English job in Southeast Asia. Uh, they're all over the place.

[00:26:59] They didn't really pay well, but you know, you just, it's really just to earn a little bit of money. Um, and then, so that helped support me and grow my, um, uh, savings. Cause what happened in the interim is when I planned my, my original trip, like one U S dollar got you 1.5 Australian dollars. So I budgeted based on that exchange rate, but by the time I got to Australia, it was one-to-one.

[00:27:29] So like the cost like went up, you know, 50%, you know, of what I had budgeted. Cause I had, cause the exchange rate had changed so much that I actually ended up using a lot of my savings for the two months I was in Australia because I needed the extra money. Um, you know, uh, and so by the time I came home, I had enough to, you know, I still had about 10 K left and then I worked more and I went back out and.

[00:27:58] And other than teaching English, like what could people do now when they're traveling to make a little bit of money here and there? And what do you see people doing? Well, these days, you know, everybody is working online. So I see, you see a lot of like internet based jobs, graphic designers, copywriters, programmers, editors, digital, you know, things you can do from like Upwork, um, or any of those sort of like, you know, online job websites where people hire freelancers for content or whatever. Like what if you didn't have any skills?

[00:28:28] Like what if I'm not a graphic designer? I'm not a coder. And I feel like writing is, doesn't pay well really. So other options you can do, you know, is you can teach English online, right? There's a lot of websites now where you get behind the zoom and you just talk to people, you know, so you don't need any experience. You get, you know, you can just, um, go online and you talk to people and you get paid. So you don't really need any qualifications for that.

[00:28:55] Um, but you know, a lot of companies, not companies, countries have working holiday visas where you can get a legal, um, permit to work any job you want temporarily. Um, or you can, you know, you have a skill, right? You survived in life. Uh, so like, you know, if you have like a trade scale, look at ads on like websites like Craigslist or one, one big one overseas is Gumtree.

[00:29:24] Um, and see what people need help with. Maybe you can just help somebody move, um, you know, for the day. Right. I think about like my daughters who are young and, you know, they want to be creatives and they're in New York city, which means they're on the whole waitresses and bartenders. And like, what does, like if, if, and what if one of my daughters wants to travel and what can, she's not a graphic designer, but maybe with AI now, everybody's a graphic designer.

[00:29:54] I don't know. Like what, what, what set of like mini skills can she put together to maybe work from the road? So when you're working for the road, it's, it's less about like a career and more about how much can I earn to keep me going another day? Right. So, you know, she could do graphic design. There's a lot of hostels out there that might need help improving their website or maybe hotels. Um, so you can trade your graphic design skills for maybe for your combination.

[00:30:22] If you're like, Hey, I'll help you improve your website or make you a new logo logo. Um, there's also, you know, a lot of bars and hostels that hire travelers, um, under the table. Uh, you can, um, work on a cruise ship. You really like, there's just like odd jobs. Right. So, you know, she wants to be creative and hone her skills.

[00:30:47] She can approach a lot of tour operators or whatever and be like, Hey, I'll, I'll do this for you. If you give me a free, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a good, a good standalone article, even like, you know, 10 jobs you could with nose, with zero skills, 10 jobs you could do while, you know, traveling the world on $75 a day. Well, I actually have that article. It's called a 15 ways to work overseas.

[00:31:15] So what's, what's like the number one job there? Teaching English is by far the easiest job. Um, and to get, but if you are not a native English speaker thing like trading your skills for work or working online or like, you know, those didn't exist when I, there were no apps, there were no services when I started traveling back in 2006. Right. You, yeah. You know, now, now everything's done online and it makes it so much easier.

[00:31:45] Yeah. I mean, you know, you've been also, how did you get started as a travel writer? Like, did you expect when you started traveling, like, Oh, one day I'm going to write about that. I mean, you're, you've written for all sorts of major publications and TV and, and, you know, you've got a bunch of books. Like what, what's, what's been the experience like becoming a travel writer? How do you do it? I'm sure that's very competitive. Like everybody who travels probably submits an article. Yeah.

[00:32:15] You know, when I started in 2008, I had come home from that trip and I sat down in a cubicle again and I was like, I have made a huge mistake. I need to go travel. This was, I was not, you know, it was like that scene in Arrested Development when they pause and they're like, I've made a huge mistake. You know, that was like my first reaction when I sat back down. Um, and so I was like, what can I do to make some money and travel and travel writers seemed

[00:32:45] like the best job. I, like I had met some professional guidebook writers on my trip. Um, that seemed like pretty cool to get paid to like update a guidebook. So the original iteration of my website was just an online resume. You know, it was like, Hey, here's some articles I've written for the blog. Uh, here's travel news. Here's, you know, it was like a personal blog, you know, back in the day when people had Zynga and, you know, blog spots and, you know, blogs. Do people do blogs anymore?

[00:33:14] I feel like they do newsletters now. Yeah. Yeah. Blogs are now just resource websites. You know, nobody is like today I went and did this and, you know, and it was all that personalization really happens in a newsletter or social media. Um, but so I, I had that and I just started blogging and freelance writing wherever I could, mostly for online publications. Um, most of which don't exist anymore, but they paid mostly like 50 to a hundred bucks an article.

[00:33:44] And so that was enough to keep traveling on. Yeah. One article a day. You could live for $50 a day. Yeah. But you know, I started when blogging was still new, um, and travel especially was very small. And so I had that first mover advantage. So as more, as search got bigger and people wanted to, to travel more and on a budget, you know, I was found and like, I just kept getting more media and, you know, one thing

[00:34:12] led to another and suddenly I have a book deal and here we are, um, 17 years later. So you've been doing this for a long time. Seven is 19 years later.

[00:34:37] And you know, since 2006, since you first, you, since you first took off. Yeah. 17 with the blog. 17 with the blog. What's one bit of advice you have now after all these years of experience that you would give to your beginning traveler self? Um, one piece of advice I would tell my traveler self. It's going to be okay. You know, uh, because, you know, going, you know, when you're about to leave on this trip,

[00:35:06] you get so nervous about like, will I make friends? Like, will people like me? Will I survive? Like, how will I navigate the world? You know, I was, when I, the first non-English speaking country I went to was, uh, uh, Tetsuya, Czech Republic back then. I went to Prague and I was like, how do I, how do I get around? You know, I remember walking to my hostel and I, that was in what seemed to be a not so nice neighborhood. I was like, wait, is, is it safe at night?

[00:35:34] Um, so I would just tell myself to be like, it's going to be okay. Millions of people do this every year. They survived just fine. People younger than you, people as young as, you know, 17 are backpacking the world and they get by. You're a capable adult. You can do it too. And were there, were there any moments where you really did not feel like you were going to be okay? Um, no, I don't, I've never really been.

[00:36:02] In a place where I was like, uh, is this bad? I mean, I have been in bad situations. Um, that's, you know, different story, but there's never been anywhere where I was like, I think I need to leave. And, and right now, what would you say is your, I mean, it sounds like Thailand has been kind of like your home away from home. Is that correct? Would you say Thailand's the best place you've traveled for you personally? Yeah.

[00:36:31] Thailand and Japan and France are like my trifecta. What was the first one? China? Thailand. Oh, Thailand. Japan and France are like the three places where I like, I get there and I like, like feel at home. And is Japan and France, is it possible to travel cheap? You know, the misconception of Japan is that it's expensive, but, um, outside the bullet trains, it's very affordable. Um, you can get incredible meals for like three, $4.

[00:36:59] Um, a lot of couch surfing opportunities, a lot of, um, available, affordable accommodation, drinks, food, as long as it's not imported, it's, it's affordable. Like if you want to get like an apple, right. You know, or like a pineapple, right. Like those are going to be very expensive. Um, but if you just want some like ramen, eight to $10. Okay. And if you only have like one or two meals a day, you're, you're good. Yeah.

[00:37:29] And how much of a game changer, I saw this in a huge one, but like Airbnb and couch surfing and all these other like online, you know, sharing economy things. And you can even like get a car for 15 bucks in many places and for a day or a few hours, like you could get almost anything with the sharing economy. Oh yeah. Huge game changer. Um, couch surfing, not so much anymore because they paywall the site, but there are couch surfing alternatives that now exist.

[00:37:59] And actually post COVID Facebook groups have become really popular way for travelers to meet other travelers as well as locals. Um, there's been a resurgence of them. Um, but you know, Airbnb rooms is still an amazing deal. Um, like you said, uh, these car services, um, then you have like, there's this website called blah, blah car, which blah, blah car. Yeah. It's more popular in Europe and Australia, New Zealand, but essentially it's a

[00:38:30] if you are going, let's say you're going from Paris to Bordeaux and you have two extra seats, I can grab one of those extra seats. I pay you a nominal fee, you know, cover the gas and we go drive together. That's great. And did you, like you said, you were worried about making friends. Is this a good way now to make friends? Like, do you meet new friends when you travel? Yeah. Yeah. The language barrier is kind of tough on some of these, you know, obviously, you know,

[00:38:57] I haven't like, did I make my best friend on that one blah, blah car trip I took in France with the person that spoke zero English? No. But like we got by and it was fun. Um, and they gave me some good tips. Uh, but in general, I've met some really great people couch surfing. I've met some really incredible people, um, through Airbnb. Um, you know, just these Facebook groups eat with like really good experiences.

[00:39:24] Like, and you know, you mentioned in 10 years, uh, a nomad that, uh, sometimes, you know, there is a, uh, it does take its toll doing all this traveling. Like, have you had trouble kind of having lasting friendships or relationships? Like, what are you going to do? Or do you want to have kids at some point? Like, what's, what's the story? Uh, yeah. You know, I think being a long-term nomad is a younger person's game, uh, in the sense

[00:39:52] that like when I was in my twenties and thirties, like I didn't mind being away for years at a time. Um, but the older I've gotten, uh, and the longer I've done this, the more I appreciate routine. Um, most travel writers I know or people that started, you know, and they go for a few years and yet becoming, um, kind of less nomadic and more harmony because they're like, you go from one extreme to the other.

[00:40:21] Uh, but I love my bed. You know, I love my stuff. I love having a gym to go to and a kitchen to cook in. And, you know, it just gets tiring always being away. And like you said, it does make it harder, especially when you're older to have really romantic relationships as well as just friendships, right? Like when you're 26 and 27, you know, whatever, right. You're just around the world and everyone's free and happy.

[00:40:48] And, you know, it's, there's so easy to meet people, but when you're 43, you know, and people have kids and they're settled and they live far away, it's not as easy to meet people. And so I think, as I mentioned in the book, 10 Years of Nomad, you know, and I was thinking about this because Rick Steves, who's like, you know, the big travel writer of the world, um, you know, talked about in a recent interview, how being a travel writer comes with a choice

[00:41:17] and him being away all the time, you know, meant that he ended up having a failed marriage and he will itself admit, you know, that he wasn't a great dad to his kids. He wasn't always there. And I think about that, like, if anything, I probably would have been nomadic for a little bit less of my life. Um, because it does take a toll.

[00:41:45] And like, what do you feel is the toll right now, this moment? Oh, I mean, I'm, I guess in the way that, you know, we, we are currently bearing the fruit of the seeds we planted long ago. And so, you know, the fruit I bear is that like, you know, like you said, I want to get married and have kids, you know, and, um, but turned 44 this year and I don't feel I'm any closer to that. And maybe that's in part because, well, one, you know, a pandemic took years of my life,

[00:42:14] but, um, you know, up until my late thirties, I was very much like, I just wanted to travel. Like I, and then I use work as an excuse, like, oh, I can't stay home. I have to go for the blog. I have to go here. I have to go here. But really, I didn't really have to do anything. I think by the time I was 35, I should have like been less nomadic. And, but obviously, you know, like you say, you're about to turn 44.

[00:42:42] So what are you going to kind of change in your life to sort of a just course? I am much less nomadic, um, these days. And so you're focusing on the writing and making a living from the writing. Uh, yeah. So I, I blog, I have my new book, you know, how to travel the world and $75 a day. I probably will write a couple more books. Um, but nowadays I'm, I'm usually gone one big trip a quarter. That's like two or three weeks.

[00:43:12] Um, and then smaller trips, you know, weekends away here and there. But I try to be in New York, um, or Austin where I split my time, uh, as much as possible just to be with friends makes it easier to date. You know, I dated someone for a couple of months, didn't work out, but like that was easier to do because, you know, we were both in one place. Why didn't it, why didn't it work out? We had different views on family and life. Like, like what were her views?

[00:43:42] I don't really want to go into it. I'm not one soft limit. That was awful. That's no problem. No problem. You know, when you're outside the U S how, how over the years have you seen people, people's feelings towards U S citizens change or if they've changed at all? You know, I traveled around the Bush years. I traveled during the Obama years, Trump one, Biden, Trump two.

[00:44:09] I would say that most people in the world, uh, don't hate American citizens. They hate the American government. Um, and they're quite able to separate the two. Um, and I think that's true. You know, like you can't have somebody, you know, from Germany talk about, you know, Oh, how did you do this?

[00:44:35] But they just, you know, then have 20% go to AFD, you know? So like, or, you know, France will talk about something. You're like, well, you still have colonization and issues with former colonies in Africa. Right. So like no country's perfect. Um, but I think lately it's been more about like, uh, what the fuck, you know, with, uh, Donald Trump too, again, you know, I think most of the world is not a fan.

[00:45:05] Um, and they're just kind of confused how we did it twice. And they're not a fan because of how he might affect their countries or they're not a fan, uh, because of whatever they're reading about him or personally, or what's, what's the issue? I mean, Cause sometimes the issue is we might, you know, maybe they, they're, they make whiskey or something in Canada and the U S is about to put a tariff on whiskey. And so they hate the administration.

[00:45:35] Yeah. It's at the combination of, you know, economics, security, um, morality. Um, but it's, you know, they, a lot of the world views Donald Trump as sort of, uh, a buffoon, but also somebody who's America first policy. And I don't really want to get too much into politics, but you know, travel is a political act. Um, in some ways is that.

[00:46:04] What do you mean traveling is a political act? Yeah. Rick Steve said this, you know, like you cannot, um, separate travel and politics, right. You know, like, especially if you want to learn about a country, like you have to understand their politics. Right. And, you know, if you are going to go to a place, it's important to understand what is going on, but, and bring awareness to it. Um, you need to say this more eloquently than I have.

[00:46:31] Um, but also like, you're also bridging a gap, right? Like, you know, you can say, I'm not going to go to this country because, uh, the United States doesn't like it or the ruler of that country is bad, but like the people are different. So by going there, you're sort of creating a bridge between two cultures and also saying, Hey, I'm not going to accept the mainstream narrative of whatever, like, you know, this

[00:47:00] country is supposed to be, you know, like, you know, the Iranian government is a terrible government, but I have met Iran, Iranians throughout the world and they are lovely people and people I know that have been to Iran just will go on and on about how wonderful and hospitable and welcoming the Iranian people are. Well, like, I think something like 90% of Iran is secular and it's, they, they kind of hate their government. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:26] But like, if you follow the narrative here, it's like, Oh, you know, Iran bad. Right. And so in a way traveling to Iran is, you know, an act of defiance against, um, the main thought, but back to Trump. Um, a lot of it is just sort of like they view America first as America just becoming an isolationist country and being America alone.

[00:47:53] And they just like, what, you know, what does that mean for them? And like, why would you want to like isolate? And also like the geopolitical implications of then like China and Russia and Iran and North Korea ascending. And I don't know, they just kind of like, but why, you know, they sort of like, most British people, you know, if they, when they repoll Brexit, they go, it wouldn't pass now.

[00:48:21] And it's sort of like, they view it in some ways as like our own like self-inflicted isolation is wound, you know, like how do we have a trade war with Canada? Like they're like our closest allies and trading partners. And it just like, it just seems like to the outside world, you know, who just read the news and see stuff on TV. Like it just doesn't really make sense. And how does that affect you traveling around?

[00:48:48] Like, I would say like, you know, I get asked when it does come up, it's sort of like confusion. Like how, like how does this guy get elected? Or like, what does this mean for the country? Like, you know, people want to know a lot about like how America works, you know, because it seems like so contradictory in some ways.

[00:49:16] And it just like, so divided, like there's just like a lot of confusion about it. Right. But your perspective is really interesting because, you know, you've visited 90 countries, you've seen so many different cultures, you've talked to so many different people. How does America work? Like, why is it the case that for hundreds of years, all the great, and I'm not even being like, so, oh, America is great, but, but all the amazing inventions and innovations that

[00:49:43] are out there come from, in general, come from the United States. Like, why is that? What's, what's different about the U.S. than, than many other countries? I would say like, what's made America great is the fact that, you know, we have people from all over the world. Right. So we are sort of this melting pot of cultures and people and opportunity. And America, money does talk, right?

[00:50:12] Like America is the best country in the world to make a buck. Right. And my buddy, Mark, Mark Manson, once said, the best thing about a country can also be the worst thing about a country. And so the best thing about America is that if you want to succeed, it's very easy to do so. The worst thing is that like, we lack a lot of social safety nets.

[00:50:37] It's very money, you know, time, like capitalist driven. But I think, you know, what has made America work is that our, is that you have everyone from around the world here come. And it's a very fluid society. It's a very easy society. Like, you know, you want the internet done, like installed on a Sunday at five, like can probably happen.

[00:51:03] Whereas if you go to France and you want the internet, like you might have to wait a week for it. Why is that? Like, so France is as first world as the US. Like, why would, why can't it happen on a Sunday if somebody wants to make a little more money? Culture, labor laws, you know, it's just a whole bunch of different factors. They just take their time over there. They're in no rush. And like, I've read so many books about people moving to France and there's a constant theme

[00:51:33] of, you know, when they buy a house or they get like, it's just like the project that was going to take six months takes a year. And, you know, it's this whole like, I'll get to it when I get to it. And it's just, you know. If you were going to move to another country in Europe right now, like move there, where, where were you, what would be your top choice? Probably the Netherlands. Oh yeah. I love, I love the Netherlands actually. That was my, the last country I visited right, like literally two days before the COVID lockdowns.

[00:52:02] I went all around the Netherlands. Yeah. I love the Netherlands. Yeah. But I've never been to Portugal, but so many of my friends have basically moved to Portugal. Yeah. A lot of people move to Portugal for taxes and because it's cheap. And, you know, if you buy a house, you can get residency, which means you can go anywhere else in Europe. But it's not an easy culture to adjust to.

[00:52:29] You know, I think there's a lot of language barriers. Their tax system is actually pretty complex. There's a lot of paperwork, you know, like when you get outside of Lisbon, English isn't always widely spoken. So, you know, a lot of people go there, they've been to Lisbon, they love it, they move, and then they live in the country and they realize, oh, it's not as amazing as I thought.

[00:52:59] It's an adjustment. And what about a country anywhere in the world? What would you choose? A country anywhere in the world? What's an up and coming one too? I don't know. I would probably still pick like the Netherlands or, you know, I love France. I spent some time living there and it's just, it is kind of a hassle living there in some ways. They love their paperwork. They love the state. The bureaucracy is incredible.

[00:53:27] But Thailand, Thailand's another great country. A lot of people I know are going to Colombia. Colombia's great. Still some, you know, safety issues there. But if you like cocaine, it's great. I'm just kidding. I love Colombia. I spent a month there. I really, I really like it. I like Chile. Chile's great. Santiago's a cool city. I've never been there. Yeah. So you've been, so you've been everywhere. You've done everything.

[00:53:57] Now you're kind of taking it easy. But let's say again, like someone like my daughters, if they wanted to travel the world, like obviously the first resource they would go to is your book, how to travel the world in $75 for $75 a day. What other like apps, resources, like how should they, how should they think about it? Well, I mean, two of the, like, I would think about like where do they want to start?

[00:54:27] You know, Europe, Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand are really like quote unquote easy destinations for people to wet their feet in. They have well-worn backpacker trails. It's very easy to get around. English widely spoken. You'll meet lots of other travelers safe. So a lot of people started one of those three, you know, two areas of the world in one country.

[00:54:53] But yeah, the book is a great place to start as well as, you know, looking at websites like workaway.info for, you know, work, working opportunities in foreign countries.

[00:55:08] You know, for your daughter specifically, there's an app called Travel Ladies, which is about, which connects solo female travelers with either other female travelers or women who live in destinations so you can meet people as you go. So I would probably start there. You know, I have one idea for you. You should not write a book, how to travel the world for $10,000 a day or more.

[00:55:36] And find somebody who, like some super rich guy, like this is a more voyeuristic thing, who, someone who just travels the world all the time, you know, 365 days a year, has no one base or home, and how they do it. Like what advanced things they do that nobody else could do, but makes their life like super easy while traveling. And I would read that book too. I'd read $75 a day, I'd read $10,000 a day or more.

[00:56:06] I would love to know how, I mean, I'm sure you can spend 10K a day if you try, pretty easy. Like, do you know Bill Perkins? Yeah. He's the Die With Zero guy. Yeah, Die With Zero. So he's going to die with zero and he basically travels the world every day. Like you should call him and say you want to write How to Travel the World on $10,000 a day or more. And I bet you can get a book deal with that. Probably, probably.

[00:56:32] Well, Matt Kepnes, How to Travel the World in $75 a day for $75 a day. I've known you since 2012. 2012. A Mastermind Talks, right? MMT. Yeah, but that was 2013. Was it 2013? Yeah, because my book was out by then. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Matt, so I've known you for like almost, in a month it'll be like 12 years.

[00:57:00] So, and you know, I've seen you literally build a career out of traveling and doing this and still doing it. And albeit things change. And you know, good luck on the next step in your journey. And you're always welcome back on the podcast. You're also a chess player. So feel free to get in touch anytime you want a chess lesson. Yeah, it is. You've kicked my ass twice already, but I'll get you next time. They were lessons. They weren't me kicking your ass.

[00:57:30] They were learning experiences. I did learn a lot, yes. So thank you, Matt. And I appreciate you once again coming back on. You're one of the original podcast guests and still a podcast guest. So thanks so much. Thanks for having me, James. It's always good catching up. And I'll play you in chess real soon. Yeah.