Mastering the 48 Laws of Power | Robert Greene

[00:00:07] What an incredible podcast with an incredible human being Robert Greene author of the 48 Laws of Power has just released a Special edition of the 48 Laws of Power. It's a book unlike any I've seen before

[00:00:25] First the design of the book is it's like a living sculpture and of course if any of you have read the 48 Laws of Power, I'd encourage you to reread it. There's thousands of stories in there. It's like the history of the world

[00:00:40] through the eyes of someone learning about power and persuasion and seduction and war and stories from all over the world all over history It's such an incredibly deep book. I've probably read it more than a dozen times and

[00:00:56] Robert and I have a great discussion about it and also we start off with him giving me advice on my next book and so that was very interesting and Robert Greene is one of my heroes as a writer and for him to

[00:01:12] listen to him give me advice on writing is really wonderful as well So Hope you enjoy this this conversation and here's Robert Greene author of the 48 the special edition also of the 48 Laws of Power Just released 25th anniversary edition

[00:01:31] This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host This is the James Altiger show Playing tournament chess where I was a chess master. I was After the 25 year break, I was starting again and my goal was as an older person in my 50s now

[00:01:58] Trying to reach the level that I was at before and it's been a fascinating experience It's been unbelievable the adventures. I want to hear about it. I'd like to talk about it You know, I think it's something I can explore as we talked about last time

[00:02:12] Through the lens of my book mastery, you know, I'd love to hear more about it. So, well, let's definitely talk about that I mean, I definitely reviewed your book mastery as well and and A lot of it did make me think of your book because just

[00:02:27] Engaging in the idea of a quest Has put me on this path to adventure whether or not I succeed in the quest Is still unknown, but I've kind of improved as a person in the pursuit of this of this

[00:02:42] You know far off goal. So it's been very interesting Well, I think just doing it you've already succeeded So, uh, I don't think you have to gauge that or measure it by Whether you become a grand master or whatever the stages are

[00:02:57] It's one of the fact that you're doing it that you're taking this this journey You know what I don't like that word but you're doing that It's already successful It's already something that's going to bring a lot of meaning to your life and teach you a lot

[00:03:11] So I don't think there's any any metric that you need to use to decide whether it's been successful or not That's that's interesting. I've been grappling with this because I feel like people won't be interested unless I achieve the goal

[00:03:25] Um, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't know what people are you talking about? Well, that's a good question too. I I think my audience would in part be In part be Older people who want to return to something they love and pursue it

[00:03:40] Even when everyone tells them it's impossible And another audience would be improving chess players And so that's the audience. I don't think I can well, but maybe that's not true because I have so many I mean, I've had I've had dinner with the world champion in norway

[00:03:55] I've been you know in amsterdam For very special tournaments. I started writing for what was when I was a kid my favorite chess magazine Premier chess magazine on the planet asked me to write for them Like it's been unbelievable all the things that have happened

[00:04:09] I can't even believe that you're saying something like you you don't know whether it's going to be a success or not And whether people who are already players of chess will appreciate you're beyond that point already james it's

[00:04:21] I can't I can't understand what you're trying to say there because You know, you've you've had these amazing experiences meeting the norwegian chess champion. Is that is that magmus? Yeah, yeah That's already incredible You've been to tournaments you've written articles You're developing your brain

[00:04:40] You've been to write a book about this For sure Yeah, it's an amazing book And if you ever want me to do any help for you on that because I can already See the intense value out of it

[00:04:52] I would love to maybe separately have a discussion with you. I'd really value your advice on this but you know When you get older the brain starts to kind of Doesn't turn to mush, but it starts getting rigid

[00:05:05] You start developing patterns of thinking that get rather set in their ways And I know I deal with that every day and I'm guilty of it myself And something where you can exercise your brain where you can feel

[00:05:17] Synapses are forming and you're making some progress for people in their 50s even in their 40s. It's an incredible lesson and then For those You know people in their 20s and younger are obviously going to be the best chess players in the world

[00:05:33] And I talked about why that is so in mastery In fact, you know, they're usually in their late 20s or early 30s And once you get past that point you burn out Because you need that kind of energy and you need a kind of stamina

[00:05:45] Certain things that you that you're missing So it's not going to your book would necessarily have value For that that crowd But for anybody else for even for me, I I would just absolutely eat it up

[00:06:00] That's so interesting to hear because I've been really grappling with this issue And I have achieved some milestones. For instance in georgia. I'm the senior chess champion of georgia So for over 50. Oh, I've won that two years in a row

[00:06:14] That's that's incredible. Yeah, and so I've competed in the national senior championship and did very well and and But what's very interesting is my volatility is much greater than when I was younger So I've been able to beat much higher ranked players than when I was younger

[00:06:31] But I've also been losing to much lower ranked players than I would lose to when I was younger So it's like my volatility is really insane These are the kinds of things that you have to write down take notes and analyze and figure out why that would be

[00:06:45] I mean, I'm sure if I thought about it. If or I were in your head, I would try and I could figure out why that is that is the case but Things like that that stand out little anomalies like that as they say

[00:06:57] Are very eloquent they would say a lot about the your brain and and as as it ages You know, I would think that it's it's a Function I'm just throwing this out. It could be wrong function the ability to focus and concentrate and so

[00:07:13] When you're younger even though young people are so distracted by social media But if you just subtract all that they have much greater powers of concentration than we do as you get older

[00:07:22] Your mind gets fragmented and you lose that ability to focus very deeply for longer periods of time And also the stamina that's involved in deep levels of focus So if I were to you know, randomly speculate which might be just total bs it's that

[00:07:40] Your ability to focus deeply for long periods of time with requisite energy Has degraded with age and there's really nothing you can do about that You probably will get better at it, but that might might be the reason I think that's right. Like what I was thinking

[00:07:57] Recently is that it's directly related to I never used to think about how tired I was or whether I slept Eight hours But now if I don't sleep that eight hours and then I play chess the next day

[00:08:08] If i'm in a four-hour game particularly later in the afternoon I'm in I'm in big trouble if I'm against the kid because I will lose focus during the game Yeah, that's totally that's totally natural. And so

[00:08:21] You know part of your of your strategy if you want to get even better Is to work on that and to develop your stamina I don't know how you would do that throughout through exercises First of all building your energy levels up, which is a physical thing

[00:08:36] Which you'd have to do almost like kind of like running a marathon just building that up and then your physical your mental focus You know athletes deal with that a lot And a lot of athletes have come to use things like meditation which i'm a firm believer in

[00:08:53] Which help you kind of empty the mind and can help you focus because what? Distracts you is having all that buzzing energy going on in your head and the power to empty that mind Is very very powerful, but it's a it's a muscle you have to develop and

[00:09:09] Meditation could be a very powerful tool in that sense And it is I I mean what's happened in this journey is that I've had to develop all around as a person I've had to

[00:09:22] Meditate I've had to I've never had a program of exercise before now. I exercise every day Uh, I've had to really work on my sleep. I've had to work on my nutrition I've completely eliminated any drinking or any processed foods anything that would slow me down

[00:09:39] And I've had to improve and I've had to deal with loss like it's hard to lose Jay, this is going to be a fantastic book. It's going to be what have you started writing it? What's going on?

[00:09:50] Just notes. I haven't started writing it. You got to get going on that and I want to urge you You start that process like this coming year is the year that you're going to at least write a good portion of that book because

[00:10:06] It'll be an ongoing thing and then maybe two years down the line You will update it with you know more progress But right now you're at this stage where all these great things are going on You got to start you got to start thinking about it

[00:10:21] Yeah, you're right. And I've been keeping track of all the adventures along the way. It's been it's been really non-stop and particularly as I'm entering this field now as An accomplished person in other fields so people know me now in these tournaments in a different way

[00:10:39] And it's just been a fascinating experience. Although sometimes very depressing one It's It's hard. It's hard to spend four hours and then and then lose Four hours like focusing so much concentrating so much and then a simple slip and you and you lose And it happens frequently Really?

[00:11:00] Yeah There's like the psychology right now for me 50% of it is mindset Yeah, and it's difficult never use your mindset. Well athletes when they lose You know, it's very common phenomenon. In fact a baseball hitter is going to lose You know 95% of the time

[00:11:21] Um, they have to immediately they have to deal with this in a very immediate sense because that's their livelihood And the main thing they do is if they're successful is let go of it right away You know don't hang on to that feeling of I lost

[00:11:36] Because it's going to carry over and you're going to be developing these little glitches in your brain Where every time you're at a critical moment in a chest match The little voice will pop up that little hitch in your head

[00:11:50] Will will make you trip on your own your own negativity And so it's very important to release That sense of loss. Okay, you can't repress it. I'm not saying that that's Functional either but don't let it sit in you. Okay, so you lost this afternoon

[00:12:08] Kind of steam over it through the night think about it Take notes analyze why you lost and then let go of it completely You have to develop that power But the best thing to do whenever you have a failure or a setback

[00:12:22] Is to write about it take notes You don't want it sitting in your head the act of writing makes it an object Objectifies that it gets it outside and onto paper And it's an excellent form of releasing so it's not stuck in your brain

[00:12:36] You're not thinking over and over and also it's a good way to analyze why you lost In a detached way without emotion being emotional going If I if I had only done this Move instead of that move the whole game would have turned on that

[00:12:50] Why didn't I do that? Why didn't I think of it? Learning lessons and letting go is is going to help you immensely in that sense It's so funny that you're hitting it dead on and it's interesting because I never did this when I was younger

[00:13:05] But I asked that exact question that you just said which is Not exactly what was the mistake because I know what the mistake was But why am I the sort of person who made this mistake? And there's deep deeper reasons now than I ever realized

[00:13:21] Like sometimes for instance I'll go for an attack when when it's not necessary And I realized like I used to do this when I was a day trader I was 20 years ago. I day traded and I would go for very small profits

[00:13:34] I would really take small profits almost as if I was a couldn't trust myself that That my advantage was real So I would go for a quick win when I had a small advantage Not trusting that I could build up this advantage for the long term

[00:13:49] And there's something in me that goes for tries to go for quick gains Well, I remember now I have to qualify this is I played chess when I was a kid, but I haven't played since then and I have absolutely zero expertise in it

[00:14:04] I've written about great chess people Players in some of my books, but when I researched bobby fisher for example I noticed that he had crunched so many Kind of patterns of games, right? That when he reached a level where he could think many moves in advance

[00:14:24] And so the game for him was to be able to think 20 30 moves in advance I don't know how many it was in his head And so he could afford to lose things to lose a piece here and there knowing in the overall scheme of things

[00:14:39] He had a plan and he was going to realize it. So he wasn't caught up in the moment. He wasn't getting Oh, the player made a mistake I have to hit on it because he knew that that could Mess up his whole way his whole strategy

[00:14:53] Even though you have to be in the moment. You can't just be completely in your You know going by your plan, but the idea is you want to have a longer term The players that can play a longer term that are not thinking just of the immediate move

[00:15:06] But five or six moves in ahead in advance Are going to be the ones that think that are going to be true masters So when you make that attack move

[00:15:15] You think oh, it's you're ready for it, but you're not thinking deeply enough about the consequences of where it will leave you You're absolutely right like like like fischer had And let's take magnus carlson is a great example too. They have immense confidence

[00:15:32] In their ability to slowly incrementally Strangle their opponent like they don't they don't feel a need. I've got to smash them now or else i'm going to lose They don't feel that and it gives you a psychological advantage like

[00:15:49] People who sat down to play against bobby fischer knew that he was capable of that and it already made them fearful They weren't maybe conscious of it, but playing like magnus carlson You're already like you're already intimidated

[00:16:02] You're already losing before the battle begins to quote sun sue because you know he has that intimidation factor It's part of his reputation I'm not saying you could build that if you could get some of that. I think it would really Really make you reach another level

[00:16:18] Yeah, I I have to work on this part We're here to talk about The new special edition of the 10th year anniversary is a 10th year anniversary of 48 laws of power I think no, it's 25th Did you get it?

[00:16:48] Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. I have to say like the way when you first off the gold sides the the the new cover The photo that appears when you um bend the pages when you when you bend the book a little bit the photo of you that appears

[00:17:02] I mean, it's just a beautifully done book and it reminds me that you before you even wrote your first book You were a book package. This new edition is like a work of art. It is a packaged

[00:17:13] Book we'll talk about the writing but the book itself is like a sculpture I have I have to correct you on one thing there. So first of all for the audience that doesn't know I actually did work with a book package. I'm not the package

[00:17:27] I'm very visually oriented and I have a lot to do with the design of a book But I work with a very brilliant man a dutchman named yo stealthers who is actually a book package And the thing is as the 25th anniversary

[00:17:41] His name is yo's he wanted to create a special edition. We both agreed on that And so he went back To 18th century technology Because we're both kind of fascinated by the history of books and we've talked about it and the publishing business has become

[00:17:58] Really kind of depressing Visually aesthetically books don't look very good. They're kind of mass produced. They're junky They fall apart quickly hardback books are very poorly bound, etc. It's just kind of a junk culture whereas books used to be objects used to be something like wow, it's beautiful

[00:18:19] You know if you collect old books like I have even books from the 20s and 30s like modern library editions They're just beautiful. The covers are beautiful. It's just and they feel so nice in your hand. So

[00:18:32] Yo's idea was to go back to an old technology and he discovered that in the 18th century They had a way of doing the edges where you could flip the edge and create an image That this is fantastic. So what he did do is

[00:18:47] When you flip in one direction with your thumb, you see a picture of me rather young picture I must admit because I suppose it's a picture of me when the book came out Um, and then if you flip the other direction

[00:19:00] You see an image of nikolomaki of ellie who is kind of my mentor the guiding spirit of the 48 laws of power And then he put it in a very kind of nice You know vegan leather cover and he created a logo

[00:19:15] For the 48 that's like kind of a new symbol for it. This is I can't take credit for that I approved of it and I you know, and I I said this is a great idea

[00:19:26] But we have to give credit to this man Yo's delphers if you know anything about dutch people They are brilliant at design and they have great sense of visuals So I was very fortunate to have him because he designed the cover of my first

[00:19:41] Three books and the layout of it. So I can't really take credit for but this book is now available It's a limited edition. We've only printed 25 000 copies and after that you there won't be any more sales

[00:19:54] So it will be a collector's item. It's a little bit pricey a hundred dollars, but If you're a big fan of the book and you want that kind of collector's item that will be worth a lot maybe in the future I think it's it's worth looking into

[00:20:08] I mean, I've been doing this podcast for almost 10 years So I'm now at that point where I'm seeing a lot of 10th year anniversary editions of books that I first did interviews 10 years ago and Yes, maybe there's they're expanded editions, but you really

[00:20:23] I can't say it enough like you really Elevated the art form of designing the book and you and your partner in this. Yeah, I will give full credit to and It really was inspirational how you did this. I'm curious somebody showed me a book the other day

[00:20:38] I'm curious if you've seen it. It's called arite A R R E T E Oh Brian Johnson, of course, of course. Yes, and it's got like 400 chapters in it It it all it made me think of you a little bit because it also has

[00:20:51] Some element of design, but even the original edition of 48 laws of power I mean, I'm looking at it right now not the special edition But I also I went since I've been on the road for two weeks. So I went and bought this Um just the other day

[00:21:07] But you have like stories on the left side stories on the right side stories in the middle like I've never seen a book Written with so like the form itself is telling a story and

[00:21:19] We've talked about this before but even the original edition I felt was very much a work of art. It's how I've always What I love about reading is that Sometimes it's not just The story that's important, but the way the story is presented that itself

[00:21:35] Is part of the overall narrative of the book and I felt that was the case with your book I just want to also comment that And again, we've talked a lot about the the ideas and the 48 laws of power But I read this book

[00:21:49] Fairly frequently. I won't say I read the whole thing You know once a year, but I'll read like every few months I'll pick it up and read a few chapters or read at least one chapter because there's so many so much depth in this

[00:22:04] So many stories so many ideas It's like you the you have you Show so many historical stories that it's like a history of the world Through the concept of power and manipulation and persuasion

[00:22:20] I mean, do you think about it in that context? I thought the book should have like A lot of books are just kind of one dimensional in my opinion. They're very academic. They're very dry they have kind of one simple idea that they're trying to express but

[00:22:36] We're animals we live through our senses. We're not just brave just not intellects We also live through our senses and power is something that isn't just an intellectual phenomenon

[00:22:48] It deals with nonverbal communication. It deals with visuals. It deals with sounds. It's a whole world. It's a whole language right and and it's also A major theme of it is seduction the ability to get people to lower their normal resistance to you so you can

[00:23:06] Influence them and so the way I conceive the book is it's not just the text that matters It's how it looks and how it's structured So

[00:23:17] When you tell a story as everybody knows who watches a film or when you're a child and you hear a fairy tale or some fable You're immediately kind of dropping you The moment you hear someone start to tell the story you relax

[00:23:31] You're interested. You're focusing you want to know what happens. You want to know what's next, etc Stories are powerful in themselves because they draw people into your into your environment And they make them lose their normal defensive quality So

[00:23:46] My idea was i'm not going to hit people over the head with theories about power etc. It's how boring how stupid I'm going to draw you in through stories about people throughout history

[00:23:57] I'm going to make you identify with these characters like you identify with a character in a movie You identify with Louis the 14th even in a perverse way you might even identify with jesari bourgeois

[00:24:08] You will you'll kind of feel something about the con artists that I use in in the book And it's on and on and on So i'm trying to envelop you the reader in this kind of world of power And alter how you think about from the inside out

[00:24:25] So there has to be several dimensions. It can't just be this flat Book in your hand with text that you read it has to like infiltrate your mind infiltrate your defenses. That is power Machiavelli wrote his book in prints around 1514 somewhere around there

[00:24:43] And people are reading it to this day, you know, it has had immense influence It's had this influence because he wrote in that dimensional way He told these stories. He made it kind of strong

[00:24:55] He used the language that I I didn't imitate exactly but I imitated the overall concept of it But his books has lasted because he didn't just write a book. He created this phenomenon this world that you enter so that was sort of

[00:25:12] That was my mentor. That was my paradigm. That was the pattern. I wanted to follow But one thing you do that's different from him as you mentioned the prince is a very short book part of the idea of your book is that

[00:25:23] There are so many stories and so much history and so many examples of each of these 48 concepts That that in itself You could drown in this book like there's so much material. What gave you the idea to

[00:25:38] I mean, I've seen other people now mimic your style over the years Where they talk about some historical concept and they give stories like oh so and so back in 1765 George Washington was having a problem and blah blah blah, but But you really

[00:25:56] Are able to get so many concise stories in here. What was the thinking there in terms of the quantity? well, um It's quantity and its quality. So the quantity of course the quality is assumed Well, the the quality the quantity comes from the fact that

[00:26:13] Here I am a person 38 years old when I start writing the book more or less I've never had power in my life I've always been kind of on the middle level. I never held a job more than 11 months I was always the out the guy outside looking in

[00:26:30] Observing people with power. I was not Henry Kissinger. I was not a famous movie producer or anything like that So How can I write a book about power? People might laugh at me. They might say what are your qualifications? My father would say Robert

[00:26:47] You don't have a a phd in this. You sure you can write that book? Well, my dad was a very nice person. So, you know, he was on to something though so as a concern so I had Spent many years being a very a researcher in Hollywood

[00:27:03] And I had to had home those kind of skills in journalism and in in college, etc And so I'm very adept in using libraries for research. So my idea was

[00:27:14] To ground this book in reality. So it's not just some 37 year old who's never had a position of power Who's just, you know spewing nonsense? I had to ground it in reality So that meant Ancient cultures to show that these things are timeless. I had to include asia

[00:27:32] Stories from china in japan. I had to clue stories from Africa I had to clue stories from the Arab world. I had to make it international all periods of time All cultures, etc. That's a massive task. But when I when you put all that together

[00:27:49] Then you have to say This is something that's human. It transcends the moment It's 20. It's 1998 when the book was out, but it's also something that was real 600 bc And then you see it's also universal covers all cultures. So having that pastiche

[00:28:10] Of all those different cultures and periods and all stories Also from every particular angle. So I have artists. I have generals. I have political leaders I have criminals and con artists, you know, I have art dealers. I have chess players so

[00:28:27] Coming from all these angles all those periods all those cultures says This book has the feel of reality You know, and that's that was sort of the task that I that gave myself Now I was younger and I had more energy then so I was able to do

[00:28:43] Now I still do the same thing but it takes me so much longer to do just like your your chess problem But it's interesting because I think with age The ability to recognize Common patterns in different historical situations

[00:28:58] Probably increases, you know, it's not a math problem. It's kind of an experience problem And so like the way you weave in, you know, like in one chapter the same chapter will include Some story about

[00:29:10] Roosevelt some story about clear patra some story about borja all to make the point that these people cleverly used manipulated other people To do what they wanted because if they had done it they would have been perceived negatively by the population

[00:29:27] As opposed to the way they ultimately did it. This is in the chapter on Basically using other people to do your be be as clean as possible. Don't get your hands dirty And which is one of the 48 chapters, but but there's this sense of validity

[00:29:43] When you show all these stories, I feel like I'm getting smarter And so part of the reason I like the book is you're making me think I'm smarter by reading it Well, yeah, and You know, some of the most satisfied satisfactory

[00:29:59] Feedback that I've gotten is I remember maybe 15 20 years ago A librarian at the Dave County Library In in Miami wrote to me and it's in an inner city area Most of the people that go that library were african-american

[00:30:15] He said there were kids there like 10 years old who would come in Or probably a little bit older and they would read the book and suddenly they were getting turned on to history

[00:30:24] And they wanted to read about julia Caesar and they wanted to read about hailey salasi and they wanted to read about Cleopatra, etc So I've had a lot of people who aren't normally readers of history get excited and become students of history and

[00:30:41] A lot of it comes from the fact that history can be a very dry subject. It can be very dull subject because The academia generally kind of deadens anything that it touches I believe

[00:30:55] Whereas and i'm writing right now for my new book a whole hit a chapter on my relationship to history But history shouldn't be like that history was people who were alive Who were facing dramatic moments who were living in everyday situations? Who were who had insecurities?

[00:31:12] It could be just as neurotic as people in the 21st century They had problems. They were narcissists. So they were living in the moment. They were alive And history doesn't a lot of books don't don't come from that. They don't express that

[00:31:25] They they describe it as if these dead people think you have facts and theories, etc But we humans aren't theories. We're not just these grand patterns in history. We're living individuals So when I write about Roosevelt or I write about borja or I write about julius caeser

[00:31:44] I'm trying to say they're human beings. They're not necessarily these legends. They're facing dramatic situations in which they could lose and they and loss for them means death And I wanted to draw you into the drama of history

[00:31:59] And history to me should be the most exciting subject of all to just realize That our past includes some of the most insane things that have happened things that just absolutely blow your mind I'm describing in my current book the The conquest of mexico of Aztecs by cortez

[00:32:20] And i'm describing When they first arrived there Arrived at the city of ten octet land, which was what mexico city was The spanish are going oh my god This is the most beautiful thing i've ever seen in my life

[00:32:34] This city i'm like dreaming. I don't believe that it's real and these are the actual accounts of the people conquistadors And I go on to describe what that city looked like It's it's like something from a fairy tale. It's like something from a dream

[00:32:48] History has all of these kinds of stories into it. It's not a dead subject. It's something Incredibly sexy incredibly seductive incredibly alive. So that's that's sort of the attitude I bring to it I think also what makes it Really stand out in this book is that?

[00:33:05] The book is not called a history book. It's called the 48 laws of power So I think so I pick this up and I think oh well I'm going to be a powerful person after I read this

[00:33:14] So i'm but i'm learning about how to have power in my own life how to have more agency in my own life by reading about Some guy named sao sao and you know 6000 bc china or whenever it was and all these incredible historical stories

[00:33:32] I had no idea about and I think oh that applies to me. I'll let jay do my dirty work instead of me doing it Or get other people to work and take credit for it law number seven Yeah, well that was that was interesting too like

[00:33:47] there's a very keen sense that You always have to know where you are in the hierarchy to know which how to use different laws like Henry messenger wasn't the president and if he out there there's a lot of warning in this book if you outshine

[00:34:04] The person higher in the hierarchy You're dead Yeah, yeah, you know people often say A criticism of the book and i'm open to criticism of anything that I write But one thing they'll say is some of the laws contradict each other

[00:34:21] You say court attention at all cost and then you say Other laws have to do with kind of disguising yourself and not being so out there Is that a contradiction? Well as you rightfully point out everything depends on context who you are I'm writing a book for everybody

[00:34:39] So some people if you're 23 years old and you've just entered a workplace You don't want to outshine the master. You have so much to lose you're going to be fired And it's a common mistake, but if you're 38 39 you're ahead of a company center

[00:34:53] Then you have you're in a much different circumstance and I make that point in the book that The problem with people with powers they they think in these large general terms and everything depends on the particular Stance you have to be able to think for yourself

[00:35:08] You have to be able to think in the moment if you entered a chess game With everything mapped out in advance you would lose You have to be a little bit alive to the moment. You have to see who your opponent is what they're doing

[00:35:21] So sometimes one strategy will work sometimes another strategy will work It's not like this cookie cutter thing where every law must be followed to the tee What is the last law of the book? The last law of the book is called assume formlessness and the idea is

[00:35:38] Take everything that I've written in this book and just throw it out and be in the moment and be formless And adapt to the situation to be like water like bruce lee said and just kind of flow with the moment And don't be stuck on these particular laws

[00:35:53] I kind of contradicted my whole book in law 48 and each law has what I call a reversal You might want to do the reverse of this law because life isn't the static little game

[00:36:05] It's a very fluid thing one strategy one moment will lead to disaster and another moment will be perfect So get rid of this mentality a lot of people have that everything has to be this

[00:36:16] Straight category you're a terrible strategist. That's how you think you have to be able to adapt everything that happens to you You know this whole concept of using these

[00:36:43] Laws of power depending on where you are in the hierarchy the way you were just talking about it reminds me of Basically the definition of talent so You have to have enough self-awareness to fuel

[00:36:57] Your talent so you are better than the people who are just following some other example or doing something by road Or they have it all mapped out like like like take tally rand as an example

[00:37:08] He's a character that kind of threads his way through the book and he was uh I don't know how you describe it an advisor to napoleon and others in the Various stages of the french government. He was very talented knowing exactly where he stood

[00:37:23] In every single hierarchy he seemed to be in And and that that really is that's a difficult thing to do because sometimes people think they're higher in the hierarchy Or sometimes they think they're lower in the hierarchy

[00:37:35] Well, it all comes down to self-awareness and observing and and just thinking Being alive in the moment and not being caught up in the past But tally ron was what we would call an opportunist and he saw everything around him as an opportunity so

[00:37:54] Probably some things would want to necessarily imitate in tally ron But he he didn't really had any political convictions He would assume the convictions that suited the moment the political moment There was napoleon and the revolution. He became a revolutionary then when napoleon became an emperor he became

[00:38:12] noble and and royalty and then when the king returned he was now in favor of the king But he was aware of each situation and how it changed And the problem that a lot of people have so this is something that comes from matthew valley

[00:38:26] And I noticed this in a lot of leaders a lot of people who attain power They kind of hit a wall And they can't get past it and I see this almost everybody that I deal with in my consulting With powerful people You reaches a level of power

[00:38:42] Through one particular quality that you have Whether it's arrogance whether it's In supreme confidence, whether it's sheer aggressiveness Whether it's being very seductive and influence and and persuade, you know Excellent powers of persuasion or eloquent, etc

[00:39:02] You reach your power through this one thing that is a quality that you have it's very strong And now you have this this position And you've reached a new level in the hierarchy as you say

[00:39:14] And what brought you there is no longer relevant is no longer a powerful quality You have to adapt And mackey valley said that this is what undoes a lot of people that cannot adapt to the moment

[00:39:27] And if he were to craft a perfect leader it'd be somebody who would alter with each circumstance So it's a common phenomenon in military Where a lieutenant a soldier will rise to a position of power in the in the military

[00:39:43] Back probably a couple hundred years ago and then suddenly they didn't know how to adapt to their new position And they were absolutely useless People who reach a certain level. I know one guy I consulted with

[00:39:55] He worked in in a brokerage firm. He was an incredibly successful trader, etc He was a salesman basically he got promoted to a management level And it all fell apart because he didn't know how to manage all he knew was how to sell

[00:40:10] And I worked for a company american apparel where the guy was this incredible entrepreneur Dov charney very charismatic very powerful very aggressive He created this incredible empire American apparel with stores all over the world But he couldn't organize it. He couldn't manage

[00:40:30] He was not good dealing with people because he only knew one gill. He had one gear in life And I kept trying to tell him you've got to adapt but he wouldn't listen to me and so the lesson for people in the world today is

[00:40:44] Your your circumstances are always changing You might rise up in the hierarchy. You might fall down You have to adapt your mind to where you are to the circumstances that you're facing You have to adapt your mind to the world as it is So your industry

[00:41:02] My work is in publishing Publishing is changing by the moment to publicize a book now in 2023 Is completely different from how you publicize the book in 2018 So you have to be alive to how everything in the world is changing in the moment

[00:41:18] You can't be stuck in the past. You can't be stuck in a moment You know what brought you to success and power you have to continually adapt Yeah, and you know it's interesting that

[00:41:31] You also have examples of people who were brilliant but couldn't adapt to their circumstances or didn't understand The circumstances quite correctly. So like you talked about the difference between uh tesla and thomas edison and I really didn't Understand the level to which tom edison wasn't really a technologist

[00:41:54] and was more just a Businessman salesman and tesla was a true Technologist who didn't really understand business at all and was too trusting And I want you know and he kept falling into the same traps whether it was with Edison or westinghouse or

[00:42:12] JP morgan like what could someone like that have done? to sort of Adapt a little better or do you think he was just incapable? Maybe he was so good at his technology He gave him an inability somehow to to read people Yeah, um, I think uh, you know

[00:42:31] Some people a lot of people who are very talented and very creative Either in sciences or in the arts Can be very naive And I definitely fall into that category. I was a very naive person when I entered the work world for quite a long time

[00:42:47] I still have a little a little bit of that seed of native navite in me and um How so what's an example? Of what? Of you being naive what was in the industry number one never outshine the master

[00:43:02] I violated that law once and twice and possibly a third time which i'm not sure of Of course, it was before I wrote the book But um, I was aware, you know, I was trying really hard to please people

[00:43:14] I had a job for instance on a television show as a researcher and Essentially the more stories that got produced from your research the better you were obviously It was like a hard fast metric for it And I was by far

[00:43:31] I don't need to brag because i'm not good at a lot of things, but I was good at this one thing I had by far the highest number of stories that were being produced And so I thought well, you know that gives me a lot of confidence

[00:43:44] I can almost do anything I want. I kind of Dressed You know this is the 90s. I kind of dressed in a grunge way I didn't really care what I looked like when we had meetings. I wasn't really paying deep attention

[00:43:57] anyway, um, I ran afoul of my boss and I got fired Essentially, I developed an attitude thinking that I was greater. I was so good that that was what was mattered

[00:44:08] But what mattered was you fit into a group people have egos so that person that fired me probably thought This this young kid thinks he's better than I am he's after my job, etc. Etc. I made her insecure and therefore I suffered and so I wasn't aware

[00:44:27] I wasn't aware that people could be political I wasn't aware that people had these egos and early on in my career when I When I was in New York when I was working for magazines

[00:44:38] I made a lot of mistakes that way. I didn't I didn't have this radar that goes That person you're dealing with They're insecure that they're boss, etc. Etc. And you have to kind of tailor what you do and what you say according to what you Gages their insecurities

[00:44:55] So I was naive in that sense. I had all of these ideas Coming from college that what mattered was just being good at what you do being creative, etc But no you have to be political in this world. So I was naive that way

[00:45:09] Do you think you increased your skills in this area? Do you think researching this book increased your skills like what What snapped you out of it?

[00:45:18] I I got better out of it as I as I suffered as I made mistakes and I learned from my mistakes and I analyzed them I was progressively getting better And then you know, I've always been very observant of people

[00:45:33] So as I said, I never really had power but I was always kind of watching them But I had blind spots which is one thing that I revealed here now So I wasn't perfect in my ability to observe engage where people were So I was always pretty good

[00:45:47] But I had some of these blind spots and one of those blind spots was thinking I'm so creative. I'm so superior to everyone that I can just get away with things And that's a terrible terrible mistake And yes in writing the books Obviously, I've upped my game

[00:46:04] You know and I It's not going to be easy To trick me or manipulate me now that I've written the book obviously because like I can see through anything a mile 10,000 miles away and people still who I've hired to work for me or other people. They still think

[00:46:22] They still try and play games with me And they don't realize that I wrote the book on that you can't really fool me at this point, you know You know It's interesting you used to phrase blind spots because I was almost thinking as I was

[00:46:36] re-reading this book that it's a it is a book about blind spots because There there is no manipulation without someone being blind to the machinations of another person and In each case whether it's someone who's very powerful being um

[00:46:54] persuaded by someone less powerful like like a tally ran persuading napoleon or in the cases of a You know Someone trying to impress louis 14th louis the 14th, but then outshining him So getting killed like in each case all these people do have blind spots

[00:47:11] And that's when you fall into the hole of the blind spot is where trouble occurs Yeah, I tell a story one of my favorite stories in the book Involves a very famous con artist named count victor luestig

[00:47:24] Uh, who nobody knows exactly where he came from but he operated in florida in the united states And one time he decided to con al capone Now that takes real cajonas if you know what I mean to me, you know

[00:47:38] If he catches on that you're trying to con al capone You're gonna be you know wrapped in cement and thrown into a river But he went to al capone and he goes Mr. Capone you give me 50 000 He presented himself as this incredible

[00:47:54] You know business person you give me 50 000 I'll be able to double it for you in three months Okay And al capone goes I don't know but the guy seems so confident

[00:48:08] I'll give it a shot. Why not? You know, I've got the money. So he gave it to him And then three months later he comes to al capone's office and he goes Mr. Capone, I'm really sorry

[00:48:19] It didn't it didn't pan out the way I did the money has lost. I feel absolutely terrible I I you trusted me You know and it was and I felt so honored that you trusted me and I failed

[00:48:33] And is there anything I can do for you to pay to make up for this? And al capone goes well I appreciate your sincerity, uh, mr. Luestig and Don't just let it go. That's all right. We'll just forget about it. Okay

[00:48:47] All right, but I won't do business with you again, but just forget about it Okay, well that that was the con Was those 50 000 dollars and the way he conned him was his sincerity And by buttering up to him because I left out part of the story

[00:49:01] Which he was flattering mr. Capone how smart he was how great he was And so he knew al capone's weak spot which was He thought he was a tough guy And here he was appealing to his softer side

[00:49:15] So to give al capone the chance to be noble and go That's all right. I'll forgive it was incredibly appealing to his ego And victor luestig was a master of psychology And he knew that even though he might be killed more likely

[00:49:30] He'll either he'll ask for some of that money back. All right, I'll just give it back because I have it Or he'll forgive me I have nothing to lose and so you know the con game worked because even the most evil

[00:49:43] The most violent man on the planet has a blind spot The need to be flattered the need to feel noble and better than what he was Yeah, you have a similar story um It's not a con per se but about genghis khan. So here's a person who basically

[00:50:01] destroys everything in his path, but he has this one advisor who Has figured out how to persuade him to keep different cities alive and and and so on and and you know another example where someone lower on the hierarchy is able to

[00:50:19] Manipulate and persuade someone much more powerful like he might this person might not have had the skills to be a genghis khan But he had the skills to manipulate a genghis khan well, he knew That that's a law about self-interest instead of appealing to people's

[00:50:35] Sense of generosity or morality in in all cases you want to appeal to their self-interest and he understood that genghis khan Was that kind of person if you can show me what I can get out of it? I'll do what you want

[00:50:48] So he basically persuaded him that if he annihilated the city if he killed one million people As he often would do when he destroyed A civilization or an empire You're gonna lose this this and this it's gonna hurt you in the end

[00:51:05] And he gave very rational reasons for it. So he said you need to preserve this particular place because in the long run You'll you'll be able to get so much out of it. I don't remember the exact details but he appealed to his self-interest and so

[00:51:20] The book is designed if you read all of the examples to give you so many patterns in your head of possible, let's just Compared to chess Patterns of moves that you can make in life Depending on your circumstances sometimes

[00:51:38] It's that person you're dealing with all they think about is what's in it for me All right, you tailor your effort and persuasion for what's in it for them

[00:51:47] But at the same time what's in it for them is actually what's in it for you, you know, it'd be clever um Or sometimes it's appealing to people's no noble sense of self making them feel like they're a king or

[00:51:59] Or an emperor by how you frame it, etc Sometimes you have to be really aggressive and intimidate people Other times you have to use the surrender tactic and make yourself look weak

[00:52:13] So they don't so they they take you for granted and then when they let their guard down then you attack them Each circumstance in life requires a particular law a particular way of thinking That's to me what power it is the person who can do that

[00:52:29] And it's also very interesting what you say about The influence of time in the sense that time actually Like a past history with somebody is almost worthless when you're trying to persuade them

[00:52:42] So so you have the story of Athens. It might have been even in the same chapter as the gangest con story story of Athens trying to decide which city to partner with and one city Approaches Athens and says Hey, we've been friends forever. We've had a history

[00:52:58] Choose us and the other city says look we hate each other But let's be blunt our combined navies will destroy sparta And that's the city that Athens went with Yeah, I mean The the Athenians were very practical people

[00:53:15] I mean they created a democracy and they they thought of themselves as superior to other cultures But they had this very Machiavellian side They were very practical people. They were great business people. They hadn't there were merchants. It was a commercial city

[00:53:31] They were seamen they were they were they were very fluid in their thinking as opposed to the spartans Right and so they were very open to an appeal that would increase their security and their power Because they lived in a very insecure world So I tell people

[00:53:49] When you're trying to get a more powerful person on your side Which this small island was trying to do with the great Athens Don't try and say you know

[00:54:02] You've done favors for you in the past. You need to do this for me or this is what you know I'm really great. I can do all these really wonderful things for you Instead tailor your argument your attempted persuasion at exactly what they need

[00:54:16] What is in their self-interest what will make them look better? What will make them more productive what will make them more money? What will give them more success in life? Nobody can resist that if somebody came to me instead of saying robert

[00:54:31] I have brilliant ideas. I can be your best assistant you ever had which people do if they said robert I can save you time I understand that you probably way overworked and you can't deal with all these things going on right now

[00:54:45] I'm going to literally save you time by doing this this this this this I will organize your life It'll be hard for me to resist. I'm not asking people to do that. Please don't get me wrong

[00:54:55] But if instead if you appeal to what people need what their weakness is And the weakness most people have in the world today is time They're just overworked. They don't have time for all these little details that they're facing so

[00:55:10] Be strategic in life. That's what it comes to just to Be all about your ego and about who you are and how great you are Be strategic and think about the other person in the circumstances and what will get you what you need

[00:55:23] You know one thing one thing I notice in all of your books is You rarely write about yourself. I sort of feel like there's there's two Main styles of nonfiction that I really enjoy

[00:55:39] There's what I literally call in my house the robber green style, which is kind of making these different Talking about these different concepts through Tons of really great historical examples And then there's almost the what I'll call the Charles Buchowski story that style the dirty realism of like

[00:55:59] He just talks about himself and gives his opinions throughout these outrageous stories about himself that are more or less true You've You've never really written about yourself at all, but I know you have many interesting stories. Is there a reason you don't

[00:56:18] Write about yourself. Well, I appreciate the Charles Buchowski style of writing very much so and there are people who are very brilliant at it Um, I guess it's it just doesn't fit me. I've always felt

[00:56:32] It's I don't know. Um, I think it's because I had so many years of failure in my life And I'm being realistic about that by the time I wrote the 48 lost power. I was essentially

[00:56:44] Pretty much a failure. I had had 50 60 different jobs. I couldn't stay at one more than a few months I was never really made that much money. I try many things and I failed at being a screenwriter I failed really being a good journalist. I failed at writing novels

[00:57:01] So built it to me was I was kind of beaten up you know, and so I thought A slight inferiority complex like Who am I to write a book about power? Who am I to write a book about seduction or warfare and strategy?

[00:57:18] Okay, well if I wrote about myself It just wouldn't feel right and so I I don't feel comfortable In just using personal examples because I don't think they have weight behind them whereas So things in the moment in the present are very hard for us to gauge

[00:57:38] It's very hard to say that elon musk is this incredible genius or elon musk is this incredible failure In 30 years, we will know very definitely what he was And history will be written on the subject because they will understand the context. They will understand how things play out

[00:57:56] so if I write about my little personal stories about You know things I dealt with like I mentioned when I got fired It kind of makes the the idea sort of trivial and banal and it just seems like it's just personal

[00:58:10] whereas if I talk about the same idea With louis the 14th And a man who outshone louis the 14th think it's thrown in prison for the rest of his life Well, then the reader goes wow. Yeah, that's that's really interesting. That's exciting. I can understand that so

[00:58:26] I just don't feel like my personal stories rise to the level of something that's That you know, I don't mind talking about them in podcasts But I'm trying to write books that are gonna last for 50 100 200 years

[00:58:41] And writing about my little personal experience. They don't seem large enough. They don't seem mythic, you know but since the age of 38 though You've gone on this adventure this you know, you've become this

[00:58:56] massive best-selling author your you have you are the person who's written the books on war seduction power You know you co-wrote a book with 50 cent You know his his take on the you know power And you've had I mean like you've mentioned before you've consulted with major companies

[00:59:16] Like when after this book was published, when did you realize Your life Was changing Because of this book Well, I think the the real wake-up moment for me Was about four months later I got invited to Italy Of the italian version of the book had just come out

[00:59:38] It was my first real, uh international book tour And I get there and like i'm wind and dined I'm taken to the island of capri which you'd be ever known. It's just incredibly beautiful

[00:59:51] I had paparazzi like taking photographs of me as I emerge out of the out of the water, you know, the Mediterranean You know i'm eating in these fancy restaurants And then i'm taken to Rome where I meet a man named andrio

[01:00:05] To who used to be the president of Italy who had written a A review of the 48 laws of power because he's considered like the most macchiaballion politician in italian recent politics You know, Jesus Christ. I compared it to like mr. Toad's wild ride at disney land

[01:00:24] Where it takes you through this like hallucinogenic drug experience We're going through all these little things and you're like eight years old. You go, wow, this is insane It was like mr. Toad's wild ride because I had nothing like that ever happened in my life before

[01:00:38] So that was when it started to go. Hmm something here is changing and then slowly As like a year later, I read that jz quoted the book in a playboy interview I started seeing that it's infiltrated the hip hop world. So it's entering popular culture

[01:00:57] That was like another kind of second revelatory moment. So they had these little moments along the way I'm just curious did ups and downs still continue for you but in a different way like You know, what were some down moments? Yeah, I mean, uh

[01:01:14] When the art of seduction came out, uh, it literally came out two days after 9 11 and uh Nobody was interested in my book and rightfully so But it was like, oh my god, you know, my second book is out and nobody's gonna write about it very selfish of me

[01:01:33] You know, I must admit that, you know, it's natural that people feel that way and I'm admitting something bad But I I understood it very quickly, but I was very worried But then the other one came when I was doing the 50 cent book I was

[01:01:48] So intimidated by him That I thought this book has to be about 50 And so I spent months tagging along with them and looking at his business and everything and I wrote a good portion of the book um

[01:02:03] Kind of following his examples and it was mostly just focused on him and then Like um as I was nearly the nearing the end of it The publisher of that book Simon and Schuster, I believe at the time they canceled the project

[01:02:20] ostensibly because we were too late in delivering but I think They didn't think it was very good and um somebody else another publisher at harpers came in and said I will take over this project for Robert. I have to tell you something and he said honestly

[01:02:39] This isn't the right kind of book that you should have been writing It should be more about you And your way of thinking and not so obsessed with 50 and everything that he's ever done Should be a book that kind of reflects my way of thinking

[01:02:54] You have to change the whole thing You spend a year writing this thing You have to throw it away and you have to do something else And on top of that you only have eight months or nine months to finish it Whoa

[01:03:07] First of all blow to my ego. He was written three bestsellers Yeah, I failed and it's true and he was right I had to admit that that I was wrong, but it was very depressing moment and then

[01:03:19] To realize that I have to go get a whole new approach to it And then I have only so much time to get it done That was the moment that said

[01:03:29] You're not as great as you necessarily think you are. You can make mistakes and you made a mistake So be more aware of it. Don't don't let your ego get involved in this company Although in this case, it was the opposite

[01:03:41] I I was trying my ego was like going down and instead of Asserting itself more in this particular In this particular project And what's the what's the new book you you've mentioned you're working on? What's that about? well

[01:03:58] it's it's many it's a book about what I call the sublime and um In the 10th chapter of the 50 cent book I talk about it and in the 18th chapter of the laws of human nature. I talk about it In relation to our mortality and death

[01:04:15] And so I've talked I've it's something I've wanted been writing for for 17 years, but I got Side tracked by other projects Um, I've been thinking about it and I've put it in other books But essentially the idea is that

[01:04:31] Um, we live in a world that's that's kind of limited human beings live in a world that they're conventional that have certain codes of behavior And I I compared to a circle and inside that circle are everything that you're supposed to think ways you're supposed to behave

[01:04:48] Ideas you're allowed to have You know behavior that's acceptable That circle Won't look the same won't be the same as it was in ancient egypt They won't have the same codes of how to think how to behave

[01:05:02] But there's still a circle because we're very conventional. We try to order human life according to these codes and conventions Well, the sublime is everything that lies outside that circle What we're not supposed to think about patterns ideas that we're not supposed to entertain

[01:05:19] Behavior that we're not really supposed to have And when you tell somebody This isn't really what is acceptable. This isn't really what you're supposed to think about it immediately

[01:05:30] Stures the desire to go beyond those limits because that's who human beings are we have this perverse streak in us And so the ultimate thing outside that circle is death itself like We don't know what death is Nobody knows what it's about

[01:05:47] But to feel it to go outside and to actually touch upon it a near-death experience Is like an insanely sublime moment. It teaches you so much It makes you realize that the world is not what you think it is

[01:06:00] 50 cent had that moment when he got shot nine times And nearly died he had that kind of Epiphany when he was lying in the hospital bed and he thought he was dying And so five years ago I had a stroke. I came this close to dying myself

[01:06:16] And I had Not the same but it's a kind that kind of experience and so I thought Well, this is this is my moment. I have to write the book now because I just written a chapter Two months earlier about death and the sublimeness of it

[01:06:35] And here in here it actually happened to me So somebody out there some faith some god is telling me this is the moment to write the book Because it's it's now it's like something deeply personal deeply emotional deeply visceral to me and The thing is

[01:06:51] When I first conceived of the book probably about 2006. It's a subject that fascinates me I was gonna like Jet all over the world. I was gonna go to the Gobi desert. I was climb mounts

[01:07:04] I was going to go to tiara del fuego. I was going to swim with dolphins I was gonna have all these sublime experiences And now since I had the stroke. I can't do any of that, right?

[01:07:13] I'm very limited in what I do. I can barely walk outside my house So I have to make this book about what's inside your head I have to make the sublime and experiences you can have even if you're disabled like I am

[01:07:26] Even if you can't go to the Gobi desert Even if you can't even go down to San Diego, I forgot to say because it's in your head It's it's a it's an internal experience that will change you and you can happen

[01:07:37] Just looking at your pets can happen just listening to music can happen reading a book and happen anywhere in the city that you live in It's forced me to make the book about that And so each chapter in the book

[01:07:50] Is about an element that lies outside that circle Some of it has to do with our relationship to the cosmos and the universe and the big bank theory and things we've learned

[01:07:59] A lot of there's a lot of science in this book. So it has to do with evolution How insane it is the you and I james are talking on this call right now when a mere 10,000 years ago, which is nothing in the course of history

[01:08:14] We were basically neolith neolith peer nothing like this could it just so improbable that this has happened the way it has happened uh, there's you know a chapter about The brain and how it operates and how

[01:08:28] Our brains kind of create our reality and stepping outside the chapter about childhood chapter about animals Chapter about love one about history, which is the one that i'm currently writing So each chapter they're going to be 12 of them covers something that's outside that circle

[01:08:43] So like for instance when you write about history What what do you point out as sublime like what's an example? well, I kind of mentioned it um when I said when I talked about To knock to the on in that city Which has completely disappeared?

[01:08:59] So when the Aztec one that expands the conquistadors destroyed The Aztec civilization they burned everything down to the ground There's not one single art piece of architecture remaining from that. There's a few scattered Sculptures, which you'll find the museum in mexico city

[01:09:18] And some literature, but basically the whole civilization was wiped off this planet And yet it's the most insanely incredible um if so People who live there just thought it was normal thought it was real

[01:09:35] But for the spanish people who went there and saw first of all they were kind of terrified By the human sacrifices, so they had a kind of a repulsion and attraction to this culture But aesthetically sensuously

[01:09:48] It was the most insanely wonderful thing they had ever seen they never got over that experience Right, so history contains those moments that i'm trying to show you that I call history

[01:10:01] Uncanny and if you know the definition of uncanny it's a mix of things that are familiar and unfamiliar like in a dream So in a dream People are kind of familiar, but they're acting differently

[01:10:16] They're they're familiar, but they're not they're doing things different. That's what makes a dream so strange and weird and compelling If everything was familiar a dream wouldn't be interesting if everything was strange

[01:10:26] It wouldn't draw you in or stick with you, but that mix of things is like a dream is what is so compelling history is like that The people are different the culture is different

[01:10:40] How they were thinking how they dressed how they smelled how they the food they ate But then there's something familiar about there's something about The human experience that has never changed that mix of things is like a dream and so when I enter

[01:10:56] ancient Babylonia, but I try to enter like the world of paleolithic our ancestors or the Chinese city in the 10th century I have that feeling like i'm entering a dream like it's It's almost too fantastical to believe that this is actually part of our heritage. So

[01:11:16] History is completely sublime. We don't look at it that way, which is what my chapter is about. I'm trying to alter Reverse your perspective. It's not a dead thing. It's something that's very very alive And do you think

[01:11:31] having the stroke and and kind of forcing you to be not as physical has opened even vaster new vistas for yourself in terms of finding the sublime and in

[01:11:45] The everyday things around you. Yes, it does because you know, what am I going to do? First of all when I write a book I have to I have to live it in some degree

[01:11:54] I have to feel it inside of me. I can't just write about things that are abstract and so I have to have some of these experiences that i'm writing about And so it's forced me to find those moments, you know, so if I write about animals

[01:12:11] Because I have a very long deep relationship to the animal world of something i've always been attracted to And I wrote about our relationship to animals and some amazing stories I now I have to when I

[01:12:26] Look at birds. I never look at them at the same way because of this story that I wrote When I look at my own pets that we have in our house here Um, I have to bring that kind of awareness to it Um

[01:12:39] Then when I'm writing about history I can't go I can't go to Rome And look at the ruins there and feel it in the moment as I plan to when I wrote was writing 2006

[01:12:52] I have to do it in my head. I have to do it in my arm chair and I'm able to do that because I have a strategy and I share that strategy with the reader about how you can make those things happen

[01:13:03] You can do it through reading you can do it through looking at at images, but you have to do it with a certain mindset so each chapter I have to live through And it's it's it's been a very it's been I can tell you one thing

[01:13:21] My life is very limited, you know, I can't Do the things I used to do. I can't hike. I can't swim. I can't ride a normal bicycle. I have a special bicycle

[01:13:32] But those moments and the day after our podcast is over or I have those three or four hours to write It's the only thing I live for it's the most magical moment of my day because it just like gives me a spark

[01:13:45] So yeah, I've had to live this book in a way that I couldn't have done it before my stroke And when when's the book coming out? What do you think you'll finish? That's the million dollar question. Um I'm on chapter eight

[01:14:00] I'll be finishing that in a month and they're 12 chapters um, so If I really get my act together Which is going to be not that easy I'm hoping it'll be ready in 2025 Not next not uh This coming fall but the fall after that

[01:14:21] Well, I books take like nine months to to go through a system I Can't wait to I can't wait to read this one. I remember you talking about it when and and also us speaking about it when we spoke about the laws of human nature

[01:14:34] But I it sounds uh, it sounds incredible. So I can't wait for it Well, robber as always I benefit so much from these conversations And also when i'm preparing for a podcast with you, I and we've had many now I always go through your books again and

[01:14:52] and it's just I get new perspectives each time out of it. Like it's these books have really Uh changed me and I'm I'm really grateful you've written them and and just your writing also. I I don't want to You're a very good blunt style

[01:15:11] Of writing about these historical events. There's there's There's almost a poetry in your lack of poetry in how you describe these events It's you're you're telling it how it is, but it's in a very compelling way uh and

[01:15:28] This the the storytelling aspect is kind of hidden in how you write it Uh as opposed to being very overt about it if that makes any sense, but uh, I always Learn from your style and again we spoke about before the podcast

[01:15:42] I feel I could I could sometimes I read books and I say oh he's this guy's copying robber green But not doing it as well and I don't mean to put them down. It's very hard. I think to write like you but uh

[01:15:54] But I think he created a genre the the way you write And I always I always see that when I when I read these books in addition to the usual just vast amount of knowledge And I get from your books. So so thank you again

[01:16:08] I'm really glad you put out this special edition for for one thing It's a beautiful book but another thing gave us another chance to speak And I am going to take you up on your offer to

[01:16:19] Help me a little in this how to structure this this book. It's it's the first time i'm writing a Concept book like this. I've written sort of books where each Chapter sort of sort of stands on its own, but but

[01:16:33] This one has a real cohesive thread and I have not done that before And I want you um when we talk about this I'm going to try and get you to loosen up To think of this book in a way that maybe you haven't thought about it before

[01:16:48] And to not be so tight and be a little more creative with how you approach it not An all criticizing your past books, but just no no I agree works It's it's like it's a new type of book for you

[01:17:01] And you have to approach it in a new way and I will help you with that I don't help many people because i'm way inundated with work But I genuinely believe this could be an extremely exciting book

[01:17:12] Well, i'm i'm grateful for that and you're right like thinking about it and talking with you about it I realize i've been very rigid in how This book has to begin and how this book has to end

[01:17:24] And of course that guides the middle as well. So but but You're right. I've already Been experiencing incredible things that are Bookworthy and i'm not i'm not a 22 year old. I don't have to write about how I become

[01:17:40] You know champion of this or champion of that it's the experience itself has been This incredible adventure Yeah And how you write it is going to be the key to making it Compelling for the reader because just on its own it's not going to work like that

[01:17:57] You have to approach it a certain way And I can feel it in my head. I'd have to spend time and discuss it with you But I can I have a a sense as we say in german a finger schpitz in gufu About how it could be

[01:18:13] i'm not gonna Take time now doing that but You know, I just I think it has to be more of like a story And not In reading this story you're going to learn a lot, but I don't want like chapter one

[01:18:28] This is the lesson here chapter two. This is the lesson here I want a more loosely structured. Yeah, this is a very good way to think about it gives me a lot of food for thought So so thanks again robert for for coming on the show and

[01:18:42] The special edition of the 48 laws of power Is just a beautiful work of art not to mention the book is a great book but I really just love how you how the book is designed and packaged and And uh, it's a it's a special book

[01:18:57] So I encourage people to Look at it or get it or whatever they want to do with it But if you don't get that book get the first edition, which also is beautiful book

[01:19:06] So enjoy and and robert once again. Thanks and and thanks for coming on the show Thanks for having me chames ever they enjoyed it. I always enjoy it. So whenever you want me just let me know Excellent me too