Jordan Harbinger | How Does Your Community Define You? | Ask Altucher! EP04

----------

Jordan Harbinger: [00:00:00] You know if somebody is tweeting at me because they liked a episode of the podcast. Let's say there's 10 tweets, that's not gonna be as good as the one person that I met through trusted contact at an event.

Like if I met somebody there six years ago, I might still be in touch with them. But there's a person who I've never met on Twitter, who tweets at me every single week, and I can't remember their name. And every time they reach out to me, I'm like, oh, that's the guy from Twitter.

But that's as far as it goes. There's something to be said for the quality of outreach. Hanging out in person trump's hanging out, on a conference call on Zoom, which trump's random email, which trump's a random tweet. You know, there's gonna be like a hierarchy of those things. I would say it's the quality of the interaction is gonna be something that's much more important.

This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host. This is the James Alger show.

James Altucher: , and the reason Jordan, I was, we were thinking of you for this [00:01:00] is, is to come on and, and share your experiences. You're really good and I think I'm really bad at asking for help, like

Jordan Harbinger: You are the worst at asking for help. But you, you, you, dude, don't even where I didn't mean to cut you off. Continue.

James Altucher: No, no, no. Feel free,

Jordan Harbinger: you're so bad at asking for help that it's like a, it's almost like a path, a pathology with you Sometimes I feel like, um,

James Altucher: it's true. Like I, I remember when you, um, you know, you were starting the Jordan Harbinger show after, you know, your old, your old show.

Jordan Harbinger: catastrophe. Yeah.

James Altucher: yeah. And. You were really good and sincere about, look, this is what happened to me. Really appreciate it if you had me on the show, and I'm just starting from scratch and I wanna rebuild.

I mean, and you get this, I got this sense. This is like, this was a disaster for

Jordan Harbinger: it was.

James Altucher: starting the show from CRA scratch and. You've, you've gone past where you were before and I was so impressed [00:02:00] because it's really hard for, for one thing to grow a podcast even if you're already vague and you were starting from scratch.

But just by asking for, for help from people and people really responded, like, did any, did anyone not respond or did anyone disappoint you?

Jordan Harbinger: Yes. One, but, but the, the, the person who did that, it shouldn't be a huge surprise and I'll tell you off air cuz it's like somebody who, people's name would be recognized and that, that's bad juju to do that. But, um, it's the exception that proves the rule because I probably asked like 140 people.

For help. And I don't mean like my parents or cousins, I mean 140, you know, online people with platforms that could help me rebuild. And only one out of that. It was maybe one or two. And I think one of 'em was like, not right now, but maybe later because of reasons. And then they did fulfill that thing later.

And then the other one was just like, no. You're not famous anymore, so I don't get any, I can't get anything from you, but uh, when I tell you who it is, you'll be like, [00:03:00] oh, that totally makes sense cuz it's like that's the whole, that's the person's like, whole life is like, what can I get from you and, and star fucking, if I can say that on your show.

So, but the fact that a 138 slash 139 people out of 140 were like, when, I mean, I call, do you remember, you know Pat Flynn right?

James Altucher: Oh yeah. Yeah. Great guy.

Jordan Harbinger: I called Pat Flynn and I was like, oh, this thing happened to me. And he goes, all right, I'm mailing this out to my list tomorrow. And I was like, wow. I bet you can't even buy that with money to get mailed out to Pat Flynn's list of a hu, you know, you, I'm sure you could pay him like 50 grand and he'd mail something out to his list.

But to just call him and like whine on his shoulder and have him mail it out to his list the next day, it's like, that's. Pretty damn generous. I don't know many people that would do that, or that's what I thought at the time. But then I reached out to like you and, uh, uh, you know, a lot of other folks that could have just been like, nah.

And everyone said yes, everyone. It was, it was awesome. It was really something. I had never, it was, it [00:04:00] was the best developing relationships with people. And not trying to get something out of them and just keeping in touch with them for years was the single best insurance policy that money could never buy.

James Altucher: It, it's very true. Like the keeping in touch is so important and it's, so, I think that's part of my problem is that it's hard. Like I always think, oh, I'm, I have good friends. I a lot, a lot of relationships out there. The podcast helped me expand my set of relationships, but it's hard for me to keep in touch and it's hard for me to just drop a line and just say, Hey, how's it going?

It's, and then it's not that I don't care, it's just that. There's always lots of things going on, and I feel

awkward about it

Jordan Harbinger: you're an outta sight, outta mind kind of guy. First of all, if, if my read on you is. Correct. So, so there's that. But also you, we've talked about this at your house, like it's awkward for you because you overthink stuff and you and I have the same thing and I, I don't wanna put you on blast, I'll put myself on blast cuz I know we have the same thing.

So you get an important email and you're [00:05:00] like, oh, that's important. I don't want to answer it right now. I need to like have mental space to answer this. And then you see it every day and then weeks go by and you're like, oh man, I should answer that because I, but. I still need mental space. But now the mental space you need is bigger because it's been built up and it's been sitting there and then eventually three months goes by and you're like, I can't answer this email now I'm gonna look like an idiot cuz it's been 90 days or two years or whatever.

So you, you end up de ignoring it or deleting it and then it's, then it's gone. But that's like, well wait a minute. That was the show Booker for Oprah. Like maybe I shouldn't have, maybe I shouldn't have ignored that.

James Altucher: Yeah, no, that's happened to me quite a bit exactly that scenario.

So, and, and, yeah. So let's say, you know, someone is kind of building their career, uh, I mean, and you know, and they say that you're the average of the five people you spend your time with. How do you answer that?

Jordan Harbinger: So a lot of people try to do that by going forwards and they're going, okay, I [00:06:00] need to hang out with five awesome people 24 7, so that I'm great. I would start the process going backwards a little bit, and what I mean by that is, Look at your calendar and look at all the people that you've already spent a bunch of time with in the past year or six months, and you have to say, okay, am I happy with the influence that those people are having on me?

Because it's real easy to be like, if only I hung out with Jordan and, and James and Bill Gates and uh, the neighbor next door who runs a dry cleaner chain. I would be so much more successful. But it's like, well, would you. Because your current best friend plays Xbox all day and smokes weed and stays, you know, wakes up at 2:00 PM and, and goes to bed at 4:00 AM you know, and your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, uh, doesn't have a job, doesn't have a career, complains about his or her life all the time.

And then your other person that you see all the time, you know, like you, you have all these negative influences. I don't care if you're hanging out with Richard Branson [00:07:00] 24 7, if your roommate is a. Burnout, gamer, stoner with no job and no career, no prospects. That's gonna weigh you. Weigh, that's gonna weigh you down way more than any sort of positive influence that maybe you think you're cultivating.

On the side. So cut out the negative influences first and then try to k you know, then at least you're starting from z from baseline or zero. Right? It's, it's, there's no point in, in trying to become an Olympic swimmer if you can't even tread water. Like, what's what, what are you doing? You know? You gotta learn how to float.

So

James Altucher: you know.

Jordan Harbinger: I think a lot

James Altucher: that's, that's really important advice, like subtraction is, is more important than addition. So like, you know, let's say I want to be a, a, a better tennis player. I'm just hypothetically saying, say I wanna be a better tennis player and I play tennis five hours a day and study with a co, you know, have a tennis coach and whatever.

But then the, the rest of the day I'm hanging out with my gamer [00:08:00] friends at McDonald's, you know, smoking weed or whatever. It doesn't, it's not gonna help me to add more great tennis players to my, in my life. It's only gonna, what's gonna be kind of the 80 20 of this, the, the, the 20% that's gonna deliver 80% value is gonna be eliminating the negative.

That's, that's always more important.

Jordan Harbinger: is and and often it's sort of a lighter lift cuz if you're going, oh, I just moved into this new place, or, or no, let's forget the moved thing. Okay. I wanna start upgrading the people I hang out with. Okay, well how do you do that if you come and meet? Uh, me at some place and I find out that all the people you hang out with are sort of like burnouts and aren't going anywhere.

That makes you look bad enough where I don't necessarily wanna have you in my orbit. Even if I think like that guy has potential. I'm like, yeah, but have you seen the crew that he hangs out with? That's not a good sign, or he's not really, he doesn't have his own house in order. That's not a good sign. So it, it really is good to get rid.

The subtraction is quite powerful in this instance. Um, and. [00:09:00] I think that that's there, there's something to that that's really, that gets left on the table because a lot, it's easier almost to think of these like aspirational people that you wanna meet and hang out with. And it's a lot harder to, it's, it's harder to do the real work of. Moving out when your roommate is a bum or dumping your, well, I shouldn't say that, but breaking up with your significant other when they're dragging you down and are a hot mess and they don't wanna change and they don't, they've, they've ignored all the hints, right? Like, that's hard work. It's a lot easier to be online and be like, oh, right, I'm gonna get psyched.

She said to go network. You know, that's an easier thing to get to get into.

James Altucher: You know, and, and your answer brings up another point, which is, I'm gonna call it the 25 person rule instead of the five person rule. So the 25 person rule is, um, hang out with the people who hang out with. You, you're, you're the average of the 25 people that you're, that your [00:10:00] five people

hang out with,

Jordan Harbinger: Right. I, I believe that's for, well, for sure we know about the network effect. Right. Have you heard about like how if you smoke. Then or if, if you people you know, smoke and I'm friends with you, then I'm X percent more likely to smoke even if you don't smoke, kind of thing. Have you heard about

James Altucher: Yeah, I, I have heard about it. And, and there's another thing relating to jobs, which is you're more likely to get a job from the friend of a friend than from a friend.

Jordan Harbinger: And is that just because there are way more friends of friends than there are actual friends? By virtue of the fact that that's how math works, basically.

James Altucher: Yes, that, that's part of it. But it's also, your friends might have a job available for you, but they'll say, Hey, I'll call. I know so and so I'll call 'em on your behalf, and, and so on. So, so, so you're more, and you're, you're gonna be aware, like, let's say none of your, let's say you wanna work at Microsoft, but none of your friends work at Microsoft.

F one of the people they know, uh, probably works at Microsoft, you know, out of all your [00:11:00] friends. So, uh, and again, it's a numbers thing, but also it's just reality. You get jobs more from the friends of your friends. So if the friends of your friends are all working at McDonald's instead of Microsoft, no offense to people working at McDonald's.

It's a great restaurant. The world's most popular restaurant next to Subway. Uh, you're more likely to get a job at Microsoft.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, this, this actually makes perfect sense to me. I, I hadn't necessarily heard that, but of course that's the numbers game and how it works. The problem is that people. Only wanna make those connections when they need something. And it's not because they're all selfish pricks. You know, that's not, it's easy to be like, Hey, if you're only asking for something when you need it, you're a bad person.

And I don't want people to take, I don't want that to be the takeaway because that's not true. What's really true is, Most of us are really only looking for our next step because it's hard enough to manage our own life, let alone look at what other people are doing and try to like help them. It seems really difficult to do that, and a lot of times we have maybe a little bit low [00:12:00] self-esteem in terms of like, what am I gonna do to help Mark Cuban?

I'm just a college student. You know, that's, that's a very common refrain. And it completely makes sense. So of course you're only reaching out when you need something. Why else would you reach out to help someone? Okay, fine. But you're 24. What are you gonna do for somebody else? So then you just don't reach out to anyone.

And then when you do need something, you reach out. It's not effective because that person's like, why would I accept a cold email from some random kid looking for a job? So it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's unfortunate is a lot of us think we don't have anything to offer, and then when we need something, we reach out because that's the only time that it makes sense for us to reach out, and that's when outreach is the least effective because I don't know about you, but I would of course much rather entertain a proposal investing, whatever it is, from somebody who I've talked to seven times over the last, I don't know, five years.

Then somebody who shows up in my inbox and is like, I need a job and I'm desperate. Can you please help me? You know, that's not a good pitch.

James Altucher: what's the number, and maybe we've, maybe you've mentioned this [00:13:00] before, what's the number of like touchpoints you need to have with someone before, like they feel like you're a contact?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's, that's hard to say because I think, and, and I haven't done any sort of science on this, I wonder if anyone has,

James Altucher: I, I think there is science

on this. I think it's like, there's like a magic number, like six

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, it's good. This is gonna be like an Adam Grant thing where he has a study that shows how many it takes. I would say of course, though, it, it has to do with quality over quantity.

You know if somebody is tweeting at me, I. Because they liked a episode of the podcast, that's not gonna be as good. And, and I thank them for that, but that's not gonna be as good as me having hung out. Let's say there's 10, 10 tweets, that's not gonna be as good as the one person that I met through trusted contact at, uh, an event.

You know, like mastermind talks where you and I probably met for the first time, like if I met somebody there six years ago, I might still be in touch with them. But there's a person who I've never met on Twitter, who tweets at me every single week, and I can't remember their name. And every time they reach out to me, I'm like, oh, that's the guy [00:14:00] from Twitter.

But that's, that's as far as it goes. So there's. There's something to be said for the quality of outreach. Um, hanging out in person trump's hanging out, uh, on a conference call on Zoom, which trump's random email, which trump's a random tweet. You know, there's gonna be like a hierarchy of those things. So maybe it is six, but I would say it's the quality of the interaction is gonna be something that's, that's much more important and that's one of the reasons why.

When people say, oh, let's, let's jump on this call. I almost never really want to do that because it's not as useful and it's not scalable. But people will go, I don't understand. You don't wanna jump on a conference call with a bunch of awesome people, but you flew to Mexico to hang out with one fourth of the people that were on that call for four days.

And I'm like, to me that's an obvious. When, and somebody asked me why I did it, why I did that. Cause it's a real example. Like, how come you don't go down these calls with 40 people, but you fly to Cabo to hang out with eight of them? And [00:15:00] the answer is, because at the end of that weekend in Cabo, that four day weekend, I'm pretty tight with all of those guys.

You know, I would let them stay in my guest room and we, you know, I could call them at a weird hour for a favor or something like that. Um, I wouldn't have any, Qualms asking them for their expertise or a minute of their time, but, but 40 people on a conference call. If somebody then calls me after that, I might go, where did we meet again?

Oh, we were on a call on Friday and you and I didn't even really talk. That's a much weaker

James Altucher: Yeah, that's a, that's a really good point. Like, and, and it brings to mind the, the real estate saying location, location, location. Like, like you mentioned the, the mastermind talks. So that's a conference where it happens once a year. A lot of great people. Uh, and it's gotten bigger and bigger every year since the start.

I think we were at the initial ones or the initial couple ones, and. I've had at least 20 or 30 people from that conference on the podcast, like whenever any of them has a book and we've met at that. It's like automatic, come on the podcast [00:16:00] and

Jordan Harbinger: Jason does a good job curating it. We can talk about what that means in a second.

James Altucher: yeah, and I, and I haven't, it's funny cuz I don't really go to many conferences. I haven't, obviously since the pandemic I haven't been to any. But even before that, really just those mastermind talks are like the only kind of networking kind of conference that I've been to.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, I've gone to a couple of things, not a ton. Uh, one of the, one of the reasons is, and, and I mentioned when I was sort of interrupting you there, that Jason, who runs Mastermind talks, he curates really well. And that's another thing that I think people overlook and it's sort of dovetails nicely with what we were just discussing.

A lot of folks will say, oh, I, I hate networking. And then I go, okay, why? And then I wanna get an idea of what networking in their mind looks like. And usually it's something along the lines of, well, you find out about something on meetup.com and then you drive away all the way across LA in rush hour traffic and you try to find parking.

Then you park your car and you show up and there's a guy in a ill fitting suit and he's got stale cookies [00:17:00] and Kool-Aid, and then all these people from multi-level marketing companies or financial investment companies. Hit you up and give you business cards and then you turn around and go home and you cry in at every red light cuz you

James Altucher: It's a very specific description, like it sounds like

that actually

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I've, yeah, it's, it's like oddly specific. No, I've done that except for the crying at every red light on the way back. I've done this exact thing right. Many times. So I'm like, well, no wonder you hate quote unquote networking because you go, you do this annoying, painful, awkward thing only to be bombarded with takers.

And then you rinse and repeat until you get sick of it and quit. Whereas for me, I really enjoy what you might call networking. And the reason is because, I am flying to Costa Rica with a hundred entrepreneurs and it's gonna be really amazing and curated by somebody who really makes sure that only non annoying people get in and there's gonna be activities, and it's all designed to get us to hang out and talk in a way that's not [00:18:00] interrupted by people's cell phones the whole time.

And emails. That's a totally different thing than, than the Learning Annex Horror Show meetup that we were just talking about. And so, It's really important to go to only things that are curated. And I think I, I talked about this a long time ago with, I was like Tim Ferris or something like that, and I think he put it in one of his books, which is Go to the best event that you can afford.

Or was that your book that you said that go to the best event that you can afford to get

James Altucher: I don't think I, I don't think that was my book. I think that was probably, it sounds like, it sounds like

Jordan Harbinger: It does sound like a Tim thing. Yeah. Um, and, and the, the reason is not because like, oh, people who have money are more important. Uh, that's, that's sort of not the message I'm trying to get across here. The reason that I say that is because if you spend five grand, which I know not everyone can do, let's call it 500 bucks instead, fine.

If you spend that money to go to something, You're already cutting out a hell of a lot of the takers. Generally speaking, if the event is curated, if it's just a [00:19:00] ticket to like the latest scammy real estate investor conference, that's not gonna do it. But if it's curated and it costs money, curated being, not everybody who signs up can go because there's maybe an interview process or something.

You're going to have better luck with an event like that because curation is taking place. Yes, there are free events that are curated, but it's just usually. Not curated as well because the curator is not making any money doing it, which means they have less time and bandwidth to, uh, to, to dedicate to that.

Not

James Altucher: Yeah, like I remember reading in, um, what's that? We had Alex Banyan on the podcast, the,

Jordan Harbinger: third

James Altucher: door. He wrote and he was talking about La Biznow and the Summit et sea stuff. And, and I guess that's a rep very, I've never been to it, but I guess that's a very expensive and curated, uh, conference. So, and that's like an example of that kind of, kind of networking.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's a good example cuz Summit Summit series I went in 2010, which is like a really long time ago. Now they're like kids with learners permits that were born then. Um, [00:20:00] but I went to that and it was really something you showed up and it was like, I. These N F L players and these actresses and these entrepreneurs and these people were amazing giving us talk on this and that.

And it was small. And then they went through this, this time period where they kind of let in anybody with a trust fund. And I remember a lot of my friends who went to those afterwards, they were like, ah, it's really gone downhill because now it's anybody who can afford a ticket can get in. And I think Elliot Biznow, who's a real smart guy, saw that happen and he's like, we kind of have to clamp down on the.

Just because you have five Gs, you can come to summit. And then they, they tried to curate it more and I think it, it became even more interesting because that's the problem with curation is like you have to say no to people and sometimes those people are high quality and or wealthy and could pay you a lot of money.

And it's really tempting for an event curator to make more money with the event. But the problem is when the curation level goes down, [00:21:00] Because you're letting people buy access like you l Let's say you and I go to Mastermind talks, let's say it becomes poorly curated. Now there's just a bunch of people who could afford the ticket there.

They're gonna bother us F for things. They're gonna want things from us, but we're not gonna feel like they're on the same page as us. Right? They're, they're. And, and since they paid, they might even be like, well, I need to get my ROI from this event. Whereas you and I might say, Hey, the ROI is just meeting these people that I haven't seen in a while or hanging out with other creators.

That's the ROI for us. The ROI for some guy from a hedge fund is gonna maybe be like finding early stage investments or like keeping in contact with us in a way that we don't find hedge fund might be a bad example, but they might bother us for something, then drives us away. And then the next round, he has to make up for that lo loss of revenue by having more outside, less well curated people into the event.

And you can see really good events go downhill simply because the curator decides to make money in the short term. And I think that happens to [00:22:00] some events. So I know we're a little off topic here, but,

James Altucher: No, no, that, that's actually really relevant because again, you could look in your local area for what kind of events fit this criteria. You could look NA nationally because everything's remote now. Uh, it's very valuable advice. What about like in terms of like, for instance, you and I have met at this conference, but. And, and we've also met, you know, via the podcast a couple times. Uh, but most of our interaction happens like this over, you know, zoom or squad or whatever. And yet I consider you, you know, a friend and a connection and, and

so on.

Jordan Harbinger: But I've been to your house before. We've hung out at events before. Like I've met you at least half a dozen times in person for L hours at a time.

James Altucher: Yeah. So I wonder to some extent, like, like how many people you have you overall had on your podcast? I mean, I've had about like over a thousand people, maybe. Maybe about close to 1500 people on my podcast. And what percentage of them do you think of as actual people [00:23:00] you could call up on the phone and say, Hey, how's it going?

Jordan Harbinger: Ooh, it's a small number because, and people will go, well, why aren't you drinking your own Kool-Aid then if you're such a good networker? The reason is because, well, there's two things. One, if you do a podcast with the intention of making every guest your friend, you're gonna be sorely disappointed and or your interviews are gonna be really bad because sometimes I have to be like, Isn't this not real science?

And that's not a great way to like make friends with Malcolm Gladwell or something, right? Like, that's not, that's not

James Altucher: did you have Malcolm Gladwell on your podcast?

Jordan Harbinger: I have. Yeah. And I have to, you know, and, and look, I like that guy. He's a really, really cool guy. But, and, and I bring it, I bring up that example because I've seen interviews with other folks, not Malcolm Gladwell necessarily, but people of that sort of caliber.

And you can tell the host just really wants to be like their best friend after the interview. So all they do is fanboy the whole time. But it's not that interesting because you can't challenge anything. You don't challenge any thinking. You don't ask any hard questions. It's not good. And

James Altucher: and another thing I notice in podcasts [00:24:00] is that many of the guests are trained friends, meaning they're really good at being your friend for an hour.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. That's so funny. That's so

James Altucher: because, because they're on these podcasts or they're, or they're famous actors, in which case they're even like overwhelmingly trained to be a friend.

And so you just can't tell anyway, so you can't get fooled by that in the interview.

Jordan Harbinger: That's a really, really good point. Yeah, you can't tell. I, there's a lot of people that I keep in touch with that are from the show. I email former show guests probably every six months, every seven months, whatever, to see how they're doing. Most of them reply. I. And, which I think is good. That's a good sign.

So they're in sort of my peripheral network, but I'm not gonna call Admiral Stav, Rita and be like, Hey, uh, let me swing by for some whiskey tonight. What do you think? You know, um, he did invite me to have a drink with him, which I thought was pretty cool, but I wouldn't just be like, Hey, papa, him, I'm hopping into Florida, wherever he's located.

Like, I wouldn't, I would not do that with most guests on the show. Um, but that's okay. [00:25:00] You know, having somebody, having somebody on the show and doing a good job with them as an interviewer, that's good enough because now, uh, I've had people from Malcolm Gladwell's company and I've said, Hey, can I, I know you, he Malcolm talked to this person, would you mind introducing me?

And he can do that because he'll go, Jordan Harbinger's not gonna waste your time. He did a good job with Malcolm twice, three times, whatever it's been. And that's good. That's

James Altucher: See, that's an example where you're, you're so good at the ask. Yeah. And, and then, and then the connection of a connection tho. So those two techniques combined together.

Jordan Harbinger: I will give you a tip for that. So one, a lot of people struggle with this because even if you're really, so where I mentioned in the, at the top of the show was. A lot of people are not good at, at uh, at giving help to other people because it's out of sight, out of mind. So that's a problem. But once you get over that, let's say you're really helpful to other people all the time, people then go, [00:26:00] ah, okay, but I need to make an ask.

I don't really wanna do that because it's awkward, or I feel undeserving, or what if they say, no, I'm gonna feel bad about myself. Like there's a million reasons why people will, will not do it, but that then they're not working the other side of the equation, right? They're helping all these other people.

They're never asking for something for themselves. So one of the training wheels that I give people in that situation is I say, okay, don't ask for any help for yourself. Ask for help for somebody that you like. So,

James Altucher: That's a great

Jordan Harbinger: And the reason is because like, okay James, maybe you'd never ask me for anything, or maybe not me.

Maybe you'd never ask somebody for anything. But what if your daughter needed something from that person? You'd probably call them in a second and be like, look, my daughter really, really, really wants to work at Microsoft and I know you have family there, or whatever do you, cuz now you're not asking for yourself.

So all of the idea that I might reject that or have a something to say, all that goes by the wayside because you would do anything for your kid.

James Altucher: [00:27:00] Right. It, it, it. It basically dials back the, uh, kind of intensity, the interaction. So even if the, if the interaction is not so good, it doesn't necessarily long term affect your, your relationship.

Jordan Harbinger: because look, it dials the stakes up cuz it's somebody you love even more than yourself. Uh, in this case, your kids, um, if you're healthy, right? And, but it also dials down the idea. That the rejection's gonna mean anything because like say you ask me for, uh, a seat at, on my cool yacht party that I'm gonna have, right?

And I go, no, I don't like your hair, James. You're not a real friend. You'd feel bad, okay, probably. But if you're like, Hey, can my daughter, uh, get a letter of recommendation to the University of Michigan Law School? She's super smart and she's on the wait list and blah, blah, blah. You're not wor If I say no, you're like, well, okay, that's fine.

But because it's not, I'm not rejecting you. Uh, and I'm not really even rejecting your kid cuz she didn't ask me, you know, I, I'm doing it through you so [00:28:00] you can shield her from that. So that's, but then

James Altucher: And you have an easy out too, which is say, Hey, I don't know her. Uh, perhaps if I had worked with her, you know, I, I have a policy, I have a rule. I only write letters of recommendation to people I've worked with for six months.

Jordan Harbinger: So, so the stakes are so much lower, the rejection is so much lighter. It's and less personal. The and, and, sorry, the stakes are so much higher, uh, but the, for you, but they're lower for me and the rejection is so much less personal, uh, if I needed to do that. And so it's a ch it's a good cheat.

Because it's like a training wheel where you can do that. And then when, when you find out that 90% of the people you ask for help for your mom's computer or your daughter's letter of recommendation, when, when all those people say yes, you're like, what if I did ask for something for myself that might not be so terrible after all.

And then you do. And you find out people can't wait to help you because they like you and it's fun, you know? And

James Altucher: also the fact that they already responded to an ask

Jordan Harbinger: right.

James Altucher: them more

liable.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the same person.

James Altucher: Yeah. Ma makes the same [00:29:00] person more likely. To think to themselves, oh, I'm the type of person that responds to a Jordan Harbinger

ask. So he's asking again for something. Oh yeah, sure. We're we're, we're doing that. And you know, it's interesting because obviously the reason asking his hard is because it's a little stressful and there is science behind the fact that if you're stressed about something happening to yourself, the best, one of the ways to relieve that stress.

Is to help others. So you're along the way of doing these, this training wheel style of asking, you're helping other people too.

Jordan Harbinger: A hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think helping other people is, there's plenty of science that shows that, like you said, it makes you feel better about yourself, but also I think it's one of those, Sort of like happiness hacks that people are always sort of harping on about helping other people is one of those things that at no matter what your income level is, it makes you happier, low or high.

And also it's, I just read this the [00:30:00] other day and I'm sort of like forgetting the major concepts here, but helping other people is one of the things that kind of no matter where you are in the socioeconomic scale makes you feel better and objectively. Also makes that other person feel better cuz you're helping them.

Right. And, and so it's like a, an an easy win-win. There's something else that I'm forgetting from that particular science, but That's

James Altucher: well, I can, there's, I, I, I think I've even spoke to Andrew Huberman about something like this on, on the podcast where from a neuroscience point of view, You know, the hunter in the tribe is not hunting for just himself.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that makes

James Altucher: tribe. So, so when he finds the thing that he's hunting for, the dopamine levels shoot up because he's, he's satisfying the entire tribe, which means his status in the tribe might go up until he feels good.

Jordan Harbinger: That makes sense. Yeah, that actually makes sense from an, from an evolved perspective or whatever. Uh, [00:31:00] or sorry, evolutionary psychology perspective. That does make sense. Um, What was the other, I, you know, I'm drawing, I'm drawing a little blank on this, but the point is it, it probably doesn't even matter.

The point is that when you help other people, it makes you feel better. It strengthens your bond with that person and also makes them feel good about their relationship with you. And so it's. What's great about helping other people is it's way more scalable than people think. I think one of the other issues is, I mentioned this at the top of the show as well, that young people go, I don't have anything that I can do to help someone.

Like, I don't know, mark Cuban. I. And they're kind of right, but not really. They're thinking, oh, I don't have any money and I don't have any real connections, so what can I do? The thing is, what they have is time, so it's not unheard of, especially in today's day and age for a 24, 25 year old kid to be pretty damn well versed in something like ai, right?

Because they can absorb all that stuff in their free time. And [00:32:00] it changes so quickly that if they're on top of the latest thing, it doesn't matter if Mark Cuban got briefed by the C E O of OpenAI six months ago. All his knowledge is now kind of outdated out the window, too shallow for the latest IT iteration, so you can really be.

Helpful to somebody like that, but also not just in a specific knowledge area, but in your connections. So yeah, mark Cuban doesn't need you to get an investment in because he's got the checkbook, but what if you're the person who curates all of your graduate students in your engineering class and finds out which ones are really smart, well versed in the latest, I dunno.

Let's again, ai. Why not? And now you're doing a job interview. You're going through your job interviews. So you're that student and you go into your job interview at Google and they say, they won't tell you this, but let's say it's between you and another person. Great. You both interview, well, you've got decent grades.

Fine. And then you tell them, Hey, by the way, [00:33:00] I'm the president of our, our Artificial Intelligence Society at the University of Michigan School of Computer Engineering or whatever. You just became a zillion times more valuable because now if they hire you, you're far more likely to recruit from that student organization, which has the exact people that they need because you're in that organization or you're the founder of that organization, whatever it is.

So now you're, you're leg up against the other person who is maybe slightly more technically qualified than you is enormous. Your advantage is enormous because. You have other people that they are trying to hire, and theoretically you're in a position that is respected by those same people. So your network

James Altucher: that's really interesting.

Jordan Harbinger: is a major value add.

So, so you don't have to have money or connections, uh, or connections to famous people or whatever it is. You just have to be somebody that other people trust at, even at your same level or below. There are a lot of people that get hired at firms [00:34:00] that. Our presidents or, or not even they're in a student organization.

And they hire them. Maybe it's even a fraternity. They hire them because they know that they'll be able to recruit other financial professionals from that same fraternity at that same school, and they want an edge in doing that. They wanna recruit more finance dorks from Michigan, so they get the frat boy finance dork from Michigan, cuz he knows all the, he knows the next three years of upcoming.

Finance dorks at Michigan. So that's a recruiting edge. They send him back to the school, they fly him around. He's in, in the interviews, uh, round twos or whatever they're called. You know, it's a massive advantage, and that guy didn't do anything but drink beer with those kids every week for a year and a half or whatever.

That's it.

James Altucher: You know, and, and it's also fascinating that that what you said, young people have time and there's lots of ways they can invest that time. So like when I. And I wasn't even this, this young actually, but I was switching careers and I was getting into the investing space and, and this is like in 2002, 2003, starting my [00:35:00] hedge fund.

And, uh, I did have a lot of time on my hands. And so what I did was I did an insane amount of research about the people I would email. So if someone got a PhD 40 years earlier, I would read the PhD and find something that excited me and, and send an email. Not even mentioned in my headphone, just saying, Hey, read your PhD.

I have, what do you think of this, this, this? Did you look at this, this, this, I have some questions, blah, blah, blah. And people almost always responded to things like that. Like if they, if you show, you know, real, sincere interests in something, even the more obscure, the better, but in something that they did, I think that's a, a powerful tool.

And you can only do that with time.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, you know, you're right. Th that's the one thing that, of course, young people don't necessarily realize because they've never been busy like an adult and had all that responsibility. But I think about that all the time. I think about all the time I spend. I, I didn't [00:36:00] even watch that much TV as a young adult.

I did it when I was a kid, but I, I think of all the time that I spent learning this, this probably sounds terrible, but going to like classes, like Anthropo anthropology or going to college at all, you know, and I'm like,

James Altucher: what a

Jordan Harbinger: It is. And, and I'm not saying nobody should ever go to college. I don't like, I hate when people put words in my mouth like that on social media.

I'm not saying that I, I, you know, look, I went to a trade school. I went to law school, right? And, and that ended up being fine. I, you know, I, I wouldn't do it again. But, um, I think that, that, that's okay. But what if. There's all these people that write, I can't afford to go to college. I would've to have these jobs.

I'm gonna be in debt and da da da. And I go, what do you wanna do? And they're like, well, I would love to. And they fill in the blank. And it's so much, it's so funny how many other way more fun alternative paths you can give someone. One person wanted to join an international organization and they were like, which school should I go to and how do I afford it?

And I said, don't even do that. Go to China for. A year, then go [00:37:00] to Taiwan for a year and just master Mandarin, like fi fluent office, work level Mandarin. And then go get an internship at this UN organization. They'd probably love to have you at that point then call this ngo, which is way more picky. And go, hi, I'm fluent in French, English, Mandarin, and I just got it done with the job at the un.

They're going to hire you over. The person that is an English lit major, can't find their way out of a paper bag, uh, can't work in another country cuz they only speak. English and has $168,000 worth of debt. So they can't take the salary that's being offered anyway.

James Altucher: Yeah, it, it's such a good point, like in the. In a career setting. When was the last time someone asked you what college you went to? And by a career setting? I mean like a conference, a podcast, uh, any type of business interaction? Like when was the last, like in a year, when was the last time someone asked you what college you

Jordan Harbinger: uh, in a year. [00:38:00] Zero. I mean, look, the, the last time it happened,

James Altucher: I mean, I mean, what year was the

Jordan Harbinger: Oh yeah, like 2003 when I was sitting in a job interview at a law firm. Uh, and the reason

James Altucher: is probably the same for

Jordan Harbinger: And and they, they didn't even have to ask because they were on campus giving the interviews so they knew already. But it was like, yes, you had to have a law degree to be a lawyer who knew?

But nobody before that was like, well, did you go to a top 50 undergrad school or did you go to a local community college? Nobody has ever given so much as half a shit about that. Maybe when they saw the resume they did, but I would bet that back then that wasn't as important a, and I think now it's. So much less important.

I think colleges would love to convince you that it matters. Life and death. What, what school you went to. Now, I think people are just wanting to hire the person who can respond to their email with the fewest spelling errors in, in less than six days, right? It's like I would gladly hire somebody. Who went to a local community college but [00:39:00] was responsive and professional than a person who graduated from Yale and has their, their nose firmly planted up whatever ass and can't respond on time and acts like they're doing me a favor whenever they return a phone call.

You know, I, not that that's all Yale people, but like I would just rather hire the person who can learn on the job. Most colleges are not showing you, and that includes law school. They're not showing you how to do the job anyway. You learn on the job. All you need to do is show me that you can do that before you get hired.

That's it.

James Altucher: Yeah, that's why it's good advice, like experience is far more important than. How many hours you sat in a

Jordan Harbinger: Definitely look like if you're, look, if you're trying to get an engineering job, get an engineering degree. If you're trying to get a law job, you need a law degree. If you're trying to get a job at the United Nations, uh, human Rights Commission or whatever, if that's even a, or, commission on Refugees, don't, don't look for the degree that's gonna help you do that necessarily.[00:40:00]

James Altucher: Or like you mentioned AI earlier, what does it matter now to anybody? If, if you got an AI degree in AI a year ago, you're so far out of the game. You know, if you haven't done AI in the past year, then it's ho it's useless.

Jordan Harbinger: You're, you're better off being like a data entry person at Open AI than you are getting a four year degree in ai theoretical something, something from m i t, you know, that's it.

James Altucher: So, so what, in terms of like catching up, what has been going on your podcast's? Doing well.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, the podcast is doing pretty well. I actually, since I have two little kids, I spend a lot of time with them, so I'm done at 5:00 PM pretty much every day. I play with my kids for half hour, hour every single morning. They're so little. I've, you know, you never hear anybody say, I wish I didn't spend as much time with my kids when they were little as I have.

They, that's never, nobody ever says that.

James Altucher: And, and you do hear a lot like, man, it passed by so fast. I wa I, I didn't even see that [00:41:00] coming.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, and everyone told me that. They're like, they're only little for such a short time. And I was like, that's true, and it's the best time when they're little and all this stuff. So I was like, you know, I will regret it if I spend this time trying to hack the YouTube algorithm, or not hack, but crack the YouTube algorithm, that's even if I end up being the next Joe Rogan on YouTube, it, it wouldn't be worth missing my kids as toddlers because they're not gonna care when they're teenager.

They're not, teenagers aren't gonna give a crap if they're flying in your dad's, if their dad's private jet because you're still their dad and you're a total loser. Right? Because they're 13. So like what's the point in trying to get to that level? Instead of just hanging out with them while they really wanna play with you, you know, and there's, there's nothing better than playing duplo in the living room and just not worrying about it.

So I've been working a lot less in trying to worry a lot less about that stuff. It, and it's, it's aided by the fact that the advertising market really sucks right now anyways. So the, then the more you work now, you almost don't even, [00:42:00] the, the rewards almost aren't even showing up right now just because the advertising market is so low.

So, It's one of those times where I'm experimenting more, so it's like, let's do an email newsletter and, and see if that takes off. If it does, cool. If it doesn't, whatever, and it, I'm just doing fewer shows. I still do three, two to three episodes a week, but I'm just not stressing myself out trying to put out content.

James Altucher: what? What kind of experiments have you seen working?

Jordan Harbinger: So,

James Altucher: I would think an email newsletter would do really good for you.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, I, that starts like next week. It's all drafted, ready. They're doing crap, like making sure email deliverability is on and, you know, all those

James Altucher: you're not using like sub stack or something like

Jordan Harbinger: I'm using Convert Kit. So yeah, it's, but they, they have to make sure that, like the domain is validated with D A C and SPF F and nobody knows what that means, but it's basically like making sure that people can't spoof your email address.

Um, so they're doing that and then, The other thing that I'm doing is I'm letting our YouTube team just mess around, because [00:43:00] I heard from a lot of big YouTubers that once you get into a rhythm and the algorithm likes you, you basically have to do the same thing over and over and over and over again until the algorithm spits you out, and then you gotta experiment and find it again.

So what you don't wanna do is do something and then the algorithm likes you, and then you're like, cool, let's try this other experiment. And it's like, no, no, no. Once it works, you have to keep doing it or you, you get, you fall off the, the. The track that you're carving for yourself. So I'm letting my YouTube team just do all kinds of weird stuff, like mashups and different types of experiments, uh,

James Altucher: what

Jordan Harbinger: now's the time.

James Altucher: what, what format seems to shine? Have you found it? Have you found any kind of magic button yet?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So, so some of the stuff that's doing really well is taking. Three different guests that have really radical, radically different opinions on something. So it'll be like three radically different opinions on the economy. And it'll be like clips of me with Ray Dalio, clips of me with um, uh, a general who talks a [00:44:00] lot about China.

Clips of this guy Peter's, Peter's at Spalding. Yeah. Um, clips with Peter Zion, who's like this, uh, global geopolitics analyst guy. So they'll run those together. And then those have done really well, or like three different perspectives on the Chinese Communist Party or something like that. No, it'll, it'll have those three guests.

So somehow those have been doing really well. So that's been really cool to see because I don't primarily create for YouTube because I don't want the algorithm to tell me what I can create. Um, I, and that's what YouTube does, right? Um,

James Altucher: problem with being a podcaster and not having a big YouTube channel is people, there's no numbers for podcasting that people could look up, but they see, oh, but he's only gotten 71 views on a YouTube video. So it must not be very big. Even though the audience, like if you, if you don't focus on YouTube, you're not gonna have an audience.

If you focus on podcasting, you're gonna have an audience there, but not on

Jordan Harbinger: Right. It's, it's frustrating. It is.

James Altucher: so that is frustrating and I keep debating whether to put in the time cuz it takes time to figure out the [00:45:00] YouTube thing. But like you said, there's, there's other things on the priority list that are higher,

Jordan Harbinger: There are, and, and, and YouTube is, is dangerous because you could do the exact same thing as another YouTuber and you could even do it better, but the algorithm will go, nah, I like this guy's engagement better. Or the cu, you know, whatever it is. And they'll just push it and you're like, what is happening?

So a lot of the people that are helping me with my YouTube channel, Have huge YouTube channels themselves, and they're like, I don't understand why you only have, I think I have like 130,000 subscribers. How do you not have way more? And I'm like, well, I don't know. A, and they'll try everything and they're just, they're banging their head against the wall and.

They'll go, you know what did really well? Your video where this kooky guy talked about this. And I'm like, but I don't want all of my shows to be with kooky guys that are talking about why, you know, frigging aliens built the pyramids is stupid. And so if you get, if you get obsessed with the YouTube algorithm, YouTube will tell you what to create.

But the problem is the YouTube audience is not as [00:46:00] sophisticated as the podcast audience by any measure. So the YouTube algorithm will tell you, Interview more guys that talk about why aliens built the pyramids and now your show is all Scientology and aliens and pyramids and you know, all these stupid things.

And if you're interested in that, great, YouTube is your place. If you're not, you're now going to become a circus clown dancing for the algorithm gods, and that's all you're gonna do, and you're gonna start to hate what you create. Whereas with podcasting, I can interview, uh Kobe Bryant one week. Uh, r I p and it does x well, right in podcasting, you know, x plus 10%, but then the next week I can interview a scientist nobody's ever heard of that talks about food and nutrition, or I can interview a gold smuggler or a counterfeiter that's not even giving out his name, and it'll get like 95% of the traffic that the Kobe Bryant interview got because it's podcasting and that's how it works.

James Altucher: [00:47:00] Yeah, no, that's the, that's the great thing about podcasting is that we did a lot of experimentation with, you know, what kind of. Guests do well just to see, and it just doesn't matter.

Jordan Harbinger: Doesn't matter.

James Altucher: you just have to be, you just have to be yourself and have fun with it. And like here, like we're just chatting like friends and, and it doesn't even, you know, whether you're, again, Richard Branson or anybody, it's just the, it's the same number of views.

Jordan Harbinger: Exactly it. It has to be consistent so that your audience sticks around, but you're not rely Most YouTube as, as you probably know, YouTube, when you look at your views, it's like subscriber views, 2% non-subscriber views. 97.8% and then unknown is the rest or whatever. So you're like, wait a minute. If 98% of my views are coming from people who are not subscribed to the channel, that means the algorithm is feeding those people that interview.

So it's not the [00:48:00] same steady audience of people that know and love what you're creating. Every time it's 97% different or whatever. And sometimes that's

James Altucher: and, and that's like the TikTok algorithm. I mean the, the TikTok algorithm want, you know, They don't even care about your subscribers. They specifically are gonna share videos that are gonna do well with everyone. Like they, I don't even know if they do anything with your subscribers.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I think the following thing is almost like a, it's like an award you give somebody who made a video you like, it's like now you're a follower, but it's not necessarily gonna show you more of that, or maybe it will when you run out of other crap to watch on TikTok. But with podcasting, it's all that matters.

So, I, and, and people will go, oh, that doesn't make sense. Or you don't understand YouTube, or you're salty about YouTube, or whatever it is. And I've heard that before and I, I, I understand why people think that, but here's the thing. The market has spoken, an advertiser on YouTube is paying the creator something like two to $3 cpm.

An [00:49:00] advertiser on a podcast is paying a creator something like $35 cpm, maybe 25. So if. If, if you YouTube that, that just shows you that a YouTube view is about 10% the value of a podcast. Listen, why is that? And that counts. People who download the podcast and never listen to it, whereas YouTube, a play is a play.

That person was there for some point in time looking at that video while it was running. So think about that. If you just took the plays of a podcast, now your CPM is probably like $175.

James Altucher: Yeah,

Jordan Harbinger: And whereas on YouTube it's like $2 and 75 cents. So that shows you how much more engaged. Somebody who listens to a podcaster is with advertising.

And the re part of the reason for that, I, I'm theorizing here, but part of the reason for that is, That person has heard you and I talk if they're, let's say they listen to your show. Let's say they've been a listener for a year and a [00:50:00] half, not that long of a time for a podcast listener. They've heard you for hundreds of hours.

Talk to different people. They know you better than many slash motion of your friends. Actually, we do w w. It's true. Whereas on YouTube, maybe there was a guy who recognized me at a restaurant the other day and he's like, you look familiar. Are we neighbors? And I was like, yeah, maybe. I mean, where do you live?

Uh, around here. Saratoga, San Jose. I was like, oh yeah, me too. Probably just saw each other somewhere. And he goes, you were interviewing Peter Zion the other day. And I go, yeah. And he goes, I saw that on YouTube. And I go, oh, what other, what other episodes do you like? And he goes, oh no, I just, it just like played after something else I was watching.

And I, that's why I recognize you. That guy will never come back to the sh Well, maybe you will now, but he wasn't gonna. Subscribe. He wasn't gonna go download my audio podcast. It just showed up when he was, you know, falling asleep in his Xbox chair.

James Altucher: a, a view on YouTube, they count something as a view. If, if you listen for three seconds. So if you're watching a video for three seconds, that counts as a view, which is another reason why CPMs are so low

Jordan Harbinger: is it even that long? Is it even three whole [00:51:00] seconds? Or is it just like, click and then it's, I don't even know.

James Altucher: I don't know, because you know, now YouTube videos start playing if you just have your mouse over it. So I don't know if maybe that counts as a view and. Uh, you know, again, I don't know what kind of loyalty then engenders to the YouTuber. I dunno. It's, it's a con, you know, the media landscape is always hard to figure out as it, and as it also becomes more important to figure out, because everybody now is basically has some context in social media where they have you, you're, you're identified now by your, your followers and your social media accounts and so on.

I'm not saying. Everybody, and I'm not saying this is a technique for success, but it's just like a natural thing that's happening. Like everybody became a writer as soon as you could write on medium and, and LinkedIn and wherever. So, you know, yeah. So, so you really have to kind of come to grips with what your relationship is with social media at, at some point, and particularly as a podcast podcaster, because our jobs is to basically be out there and have people [00:52:00] listen.

Uh, it's, it's always an interesting thing. Everybody has a different approach to it,

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. It, it's, it's also the other problem with YouTube that I found, cuz I talked to a lot of YouTubers and I have a lot of big YouTuber friends who are ma you know, have like a million plus subs or 6 million subs. You can't really take time off. Because if you do, the algorithm punishes you, not at the levels where you and I are probably on YouTube, but if you're at the top top and you're like cranking out content two or three times a week, you can't just go back to your mom's house for Thanksgiving and Christmas and then come back in January because the algorithm does something where you're no longer.

As relevant as before and you have to work really hard to get back into it and it's like you might never get back on the, on that wave that you were surfing. So I know kids, they're people in their twenties that are YouTubers that haven't seen their mom in like seven years for a holiday unless she flies out to see them because they can't get away from their team in their studio cuz they have to like make [00:53:00] jello prank videos.

James Altucher: You know, I, it's interesting, I keep, I keep thinking I gotta attack this YouTube thing, but I just don't have the energy for it at all. Like, cuz it takes a lot of work too. It, it's not just making videos. You gotta have real production value and, and you know, it's different than, I mean, even a podcast has to have real production value, but not

Jordan Harbinger: It does.

James Altucher: extent YouTube.

YouTube

Jordan Harbinger: It's, it's, yeah, it's not even close. It's funny, I was just thinking about this earlier today cuz I'm interviewing this guy who was on this massive YouTube channel and he's like, I've got 4,000 Instagram followers in the last hour. And I was like, you're not going to get that when you come on my show.

And he is like, oh, I don't care. But I looked at the channel. And it's like it's all filmed in a studio. They fly in every guest, they put 'em up in a hotel, they make a trailer for the episode that probably costs a few thousand dollars. The production quality is off the charts. Every time they do a video, they change the header banner of the YouTube channel to show the new video.

They change the featured video to be that. They have an ad campaign that runs on it. They have like two [00:54:00] Instagram channels that show clips of all of these, and they post like eight times a day. And then there's also a podcast version of it, and I'm like, This is crazy amounts of work. There's probably like 15 people working full-time on this YouTube channel.

And then I was like, okay, but this guy's probably making like 10 million bucks a year. Right? Well, I look at the advertisers and I go, uh, okay, these are advertisers that are not high quality advertisers. I gotta be really careful cause I don't wanna out anybody or badmouth any companies. But let's just say, One of 'em was like a tobacco chewing tobacco company, and I was like, this is not an advertiser.

You have on your channel when you have a lot of other options for advertisers to have. On your channel. The other one was like a vape company. Then there was another one that was like a supplement company that I know is everywhere and, but I thought like, oh, I expected there to be a better help ad and an insurance company ad [00:55:00] and a mobile company ad, not low end, sort of, kind of icky ish advertisers.

And you pick those when you can't get other advertisers. And I thought, who doesn't wanna advertise? When this thing's gonna get like 1.5 million plays. And so it made me think like, is this guy might be making less money than a good podcast? Who, who sits around doing it in their underwear releases the audio, makes sure that the volume levels are fine and that there's not like a dog barking in the background and that's it.

James Altucher: Yeah, no, it's interesting because, uh, and, and it's even worse in, in. TikTok where it's very hard to mon, like all these people might have, have a hundred million views on TikTok and make $0. So, uh,

Jordan Harbinger: yeah, yeah.

James Altucher: it, it's, it's interesting thing about it. I mean, I've tried, I, I've tried TikTok, I've tried Instagram, and I've, I have like, bursts of success on each platform.

I try, but it's just so much work to really expend effort. And I, I do three pockets a week. I wanna make these as [00:56:00] quality as possible. So that right there is, is the job,

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I, I, I actually decided early not to do TikTok because, well, one, I, if there's a shadow ban such thing as Shadow ban where they block certain content without telling you, then I'm definitely gonna be on that because I talk about China and the Communist Party all the time, and it's owned by a Chinese company.

So I'm like, there's no way I'm getting traction on TikTok. And even if I was, I could get me, you know, I. All my work could go away in, in with a click of a mouse from whoever's over there at Bite Dance in Shanghai or Beijing. Right. So, no thanks. The other thing is I, I met people who had like 40 million followers on TikTok, and I'm like, why are they writing, uh, why are they doing a Patreon?

And I'm like, how aren't you making enough off TikTok? They're making $0 off TikTok. And I thought, holy crap, you gotta get these followers from TikTok to go subscribe to something else. So they would come out with a podcast. And they, it would just epically fail. They'd get like 8,000 [00:57:00] plays. I'm thinking, how do you go from 40 million followers to 8,000?

James Altucher: Yeah, so there's, there's really no loyalty in the audience. And it's funny, it's funny though because one time someone said to me, Hey, can you pay like this one TikTok with 20 million views, unlike her manager and. Uh, if you pay me a, you know, a certain amount of money, I'll, she'll give you a shout out and say, and tell everybody to go to your, uh, po you know, your YouTube chat, your TikTok.

And so I said, okay, well how much does it cost? And he said, I think it was $2,500. And this is a person that had literally $20 million on TikTok and, you know, millions of views on each video. And so I said, I don't know if it's gonna work. I don't, can we do it once? Where I see what the result is, and then I'm happy to do it 10 more times.

And so this girl did it once, and I don't even remember who she was, like some. You know, some just girl who had a TikTok with 40 million followers or 20 [00:58:00] million followers, and all I got was, I got a ton of messages from people saying like all misspellings and lowercase letters, like, did you take over so-and-so's account?

Like, did you hack so-and-so's account? Like give her back her account. Like people were like obsessed with the fact that I stole this person's account somehow and put like some deep fake video of her recommending my, you know, TikTok channel. So

it was just a weird. Different type of audience. But

Jordan Harbinger: Kooky.

James Altucher: thanks so much for your time and helping us out with our ask Alta Subseries.

It's always great to update with you and catch up, and one of these days I really hope we get together in person again.

Jordan Harbinger: Yes,

James Altucher: ever leave San

Jordan Harbinger: Are you still down? Are you moved to, you moved to Atlanta, right?

James Altucher: I'm in Atlanta.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I would love to see if I ever get out there. I'm in San Jose and it would be great to, if you ever find yourself up this way, but I don't know. I have to figure out when I. My next meeting is at what? What's down there?

Coca-Cola World Headquarters or something.[00:59:00]

James Altucher: Yeah, come down, visit Coca-Cola

Jordan Harbinger: There we go. Sounds like a plan. Yeah, c n. Thank you very much, man. Good chatting with you, and I'll talk to you soon.