Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant: Strategies from the Minds of the Wealthy and Wise | Chris Ullman (Part 2)

[00:00:06] Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant. What a great book by Chris Ullman where he discusses all his experiences being the right-hand man to several billionaires and other powerful figures and all the lessons he's learned from them. Incredible stories, incredible lessons. Definitely,

[00:00:27] I can't highly recommend it enough, pre-order this book on Amazon. Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant. The book's about to come out and by the way, Chris is also the former world whistling champion and he whistles at the end of this episode.

[00:00:47] This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host. This is the James Altucher Show. You've worked with so many successful, interesting people and I like how it's not just billionaires that you talk about in the book. So now we're talking

[00:01:11] about four billionaires and a Parking Attendant. Like John Kasich who was governor of Ohio and he was in Congress and so on and he ran for president. Obviously, David Rubinstein, I met you through David Rubinstein. David Rubinstein's been on the podcast three or four times. Thanks

[00:01:26] to you, you always helped me set those up. You've worked with many other people. We'll talk about David Rubinstein. He's the one I know best on your list and subject. I was fascinated by John Kasich because politics is an interesting skill. You have to be very,

[00:01:47] very charismatic and likable and people are going to snicker this but you have to have ideas and convince people that your ideas are worthwhile. And I see this in your book when you describe your interaction with John Kasich. What skills do you think John Kasich

[00:02:06] brought to the table that made him a successful politician? And of course, you could say he lost running for president but everybody except 46 people have lost running for president. So Kasich is really amazing person and he's a big, bold, brash leader. When he was in Congress

[00:02:28] he did things differently which is really key I think to getting things done if you're able to get people to follow you and believe in what you're saying. So Kasich did two things and I referenced these in the book. One is building bridges. Kasich would work with the

[00:02:50] Democrats. There's a guy named Ron Dellums who was a very liberal African American congressman from California and very different from Kasich but they teamed up to fight wasteful defense department spending and they succeeded. And they became friends and they went to each other's

[00:03:10] weddings. And you don't see that anymore and that's terrible. Kasich worked with the so-called blue dog Democrats and they actually got things done which is really not happening right now and so that spirit of reaching across the aisle to work with someone is central

[00:03:31] to getting things done. We're in a culture now where it's, you know, I'm right, you're wrong. I don't know where this planet is where I'm 100% right and you're 100% wrong because that's not how you get things done. So that is a, to the extent that your listeners are wondering

[00:03:49] like what is the problem with Washington? You know, that's it. Is this I'm right, you're wrong mentality and Kasich was not like that and it paid off because from 1998 for four years they balanced the federal budget. It has not been balanced since 2001. So think about

[00:04:06] that for a generation, the budget has not been balanced. In fact this next budget is going to be two trillion dollars in deficit. That is an astounding amount of money. You mentioned in the book you've worked with the IRS so I'm asking you this question because

[00:04:21] I'm assuming I am guessing you might know the answer. How much does the U.S. government make in revenues? When you say there's a two trillion dollar deficit just roughly how much does it spend

[00:04:31] and how much does it make? Yeah. So the federal budget is around six and a half trillion but they're only collecting four and a half trillion in taxes. Then you have a gap and that gap is called

[00:04:46] the deficit. And then when you accumulate those, they turn into the debt. So the debt is this big pot that gets added to every year in the form of an annual deficit. And so it's a gigantic amount

[00:05:00] of money and it's unsustainable but people don't, they're more worried about trivial things than they are about these deep substantive things. I mean right now we are paying almost as much interest

[00:05:18] on the debt as we are to for the Defense Department every year. And that's just interest. It just goes to China and South Korea and Germany and all these people who have in countries that have lent us

[00:05:31] money so it's terrible. But Kasek was brilliant at reaching across the aisle to get things done. And the other thing that he did that was really amazing and this is a very powerful lesson.

[00:05:43] It's what I call act like you're relevant even when you're not. And the way things work on Capitol Hill is that when you're in the minority, meaning you're the minority party as the Republicans

[00:05:55] were for literally for 40 years, you don't have any power in the House of Representatives at least. And your sole job is to beat up on the majority. So that's what they did for years and years.

[00:06:08] So when Kasek became the top Republican on the Budget Committee, he just said, I don't want to do that. I actually want to produce my own budget. And people said you're nuts because you're putting a target right on your forehead. And he said, I don't care. I believe

[00:06:23] in something. So he produced a budget and it didn't go anywhere because they were in the minority. But two years later they won for the first time in 40 years and Republicans took control of the House of Representatives. Kasek goes over to the shelf because he's now the chairman,

[00:06:41] pulls off the budget, slaps it on the table and says that's what we believe in. I have a staff that knows how to produce a budget. I know how to talk about a budget. The media respect me for it.

[00:06:51] My constituents love me. And so he acted like he was relevant even when he wasn't. And if you're listeners who are... Yeah, especially if you're kind of earlier in your

[00:07:03] career, it's easy to sit back and wait to be told what to do. But if you throw yourself into the ring, act like you're relevant even when you're not. And when the block says I need a memo or press

[00:07:15] release or talking points or a speech, you just raise your hand even if you're the junior person. You act relevant. Now it's scary and you now have to deliver and there's pressure,

[00:07:28] but you now have power. So it's a mindset. And Kasek had that mindset. He wanted to be a player and he was not just going to sit there and throw darts at someone else's plan. He was going to say,

[00:07:41] this is what I stand for and what our parties stand for. And that is a gigantically huge lesson. And all the lessons in his book have affected me personally, immensely so.

[00:07:55] So first off, just to add to one thing you said, in order for Kasek to be relevant in that way, he had to also do a lot of work. He had to know what is a budget? What is the budget of the United

[00:08:07] States and how... As opposed to just arguing about someone else's budget and picking points to argue, which is a lot easier, he had to make a complete U.S. budget. So he had to know all

[00:08:17] the components. He had to know how to do this and had to know which issues were important. He also had to know then what's the philosophy of his party so that he can make a budget that

[00:08:26] fits in with the party and also not just like an angry budget. That's the... I see sometimes that the party that's not in power makes a statement like, let's eliminate the IRS. And they can say that because they know it's meaningless because they're not in power. So

[00:08:43] it's just to get favor from people like, oh, that's great. Get rid of the IRS. But he had to make a relevant... Like you say, he had to be relevant. He had to make a relevant

[00:08:53] budget or realistic one, not a science fiction one. So that's all these things that take a lot of work and it's very hard. So what's an instance when you maybe were relevant and everyone's like, what's Chris doing? Why is he doing this? He doesn't need to do this.

[00:09:08] So here I am an older, well-to-do Wall Street white guy. I don't see color. I didn't notice that. Okay, well, then you're rare. And who is sad and crushed by police shootings of unarmed black people? And they're all complex and some of them

[00:09:31] may be justified, but nonetheless it's heartbreaking when Tamir Rice, a 14-year-old, is shot dead in a park. And I say, all right, what can this white guy do? And I say, well,

[00:09:46] I'm irrelevant. Like who cares what I have to say? And I say, no, I don't want to be irrelevant. So I actually went to the TEDx mid-Atlantic people and it's a pretty prominent organizer of

[00:09:57] TED Talks in Washington. And I pitched them and I said, listen, I have a great story about how to bridge the gap between whites and blacks in America. And they looked at me and they're like,

[00:10:09] you've got a lot of checkmarks that are going in the wrong direction here, buddy. And I said, listen, hear me out. And they heard me out and they said, we love your story. We

[00:10:17] want you to do this talk. And it's on YouTube. It's a very powerful thought. I wanted to be relevant. And I was sick and tired of just saying, you read the latest story about a shooting

[00:10:29] and you say, well, what can I do about it? I can sit there and I can pray or I can feel sad or I can complain to whoever will listen to me. But I wanted to be relevant and productive and

[00:10:40] actually constructive in particular. And I did that talk and thousands of people listened to it and I got great feedback from white and black people. And it's all about loving your neighbor and deescalating and then finding common ground with people. And if I may, I'll tell you this

[00:11:06] quick anecdote where I was... And it's what the TED Talk is based on is I'm in a McDonald's in Anacostia, which is kind of the tough part of town here in DC. And I was mentoring this

[00:11:18] young black boy. He's around 10 years old. I'm 40 years old and where it's 9 p.m. on a Tuesday night and this black woman just comes up and hovers over me and says, what's up with you and the little

[00:11:32] boy? As if I'm a pervert or a kidnapper or something. And I felt like saying, and I take a hike lady, you got a problem because I'm white. And instead I just stood up, extended my hand.

[00:11:42] And I said, I am Chris Ullman. This is Montay. We're in this Christian mentoring program and we're just finished our session and now we're just getting some food. And I'll tell you, the scales fall

[00:11:54] from her eyes. She says, this is shocking. She says, we need more people like you. So she went from thinking I was a pervert to actually wanting more people who were doing what I'm doing.

[00:12:06] And that's because I treated her with respect. I didn't assume she's a racist and I could understand that it was a little unusual to see this older white guy with this younger black kid.

[00:12:19] So that anecdote served as the basis for this TEDx talk. And you know, it's a very powerful story because too often people just, they revert to the mean. They go to their respective

[00:12:33] corners and just say, you're bad and I'm good. And they say the opposite. So case a lesson, really impacted me. Get off the bench, get in there, be relevant, even if you think you can't be.

[00:13:03] The other skill set it seems among really good politicians is kind of this X factor on charisma. And I feel charisma is a learned skill. People could not have it in an early in life and

[00:13:17] then later on they learn to have it and vice versa. What would you say Kasek's kind of charisma derived from? And again, I don't know if he's, I've never met him. I don't know if he's charismatic

[00:13:26] or not, but from the way you describe him, it sounds he's very charismatic. He is. I have and always will these memories of hearing him on the house floor. And there I am a staffer listening to him talk about a budget, which is usually a geeky thing,

[00:13:45] but in these very human terms. I mean, there's no doubt he's a politician. He's got a big ego, but he was able to harness it for the public good. And where does that come from? I think a lot of it

[00:13:59] is just genetic and how someone grew up. And his parents were like tragically killed in a car accident. And I'm sure that affected him and probably spurred him on to want to do good in the

[00:14:17] world and not wallow in his own grief. So, you know, everyone's complex, but so he had a lot of charisma. But then like you look at David Rubenstein, no one's going to say David is charismatic

[00:14:31] or Arthur Levin. No one says like Arthur is actually kind of boring the way he speaks. But David and Arthur, who are both featured in the book, are amazing at getting stuff done because people look at their brains and say these people are smart. They are focused.

[00:14:50] They are reasonable. There's this great anecdote in there about again, building bridges where Arthur Levitt, who's a Democrat, had to work with Phil Graham, who is this, you know, good old boy Texan Republican. And Arthur's first time meeting him realized that Phil Graham loved

[00:15:10] laboratory retrievers and saw a picture on his desk and he said, Hey, is that your dog? And he said, Yeah, it's my dog. And he said, I have lats too. And they bonded over their dogs. So it's like,

[00:15:19] you have a dog, I have a dog. Hey, let's be friends. So that that capacity to find common ground and then figure out where can you get 80% of what you want? And I can get 80%

[00:15:35] of what I want. And let's do it. Let's do the deals. Rubenstein's like that. Arthur was like that. Kasich was like that. So that capacity to get most of what you want is important and it's

[00:15:49] greatly lacking today. And, you know, it's a zero sum game for a lot of politicians. Yeah, like you feel that a lot of it is transactional. Like they say something because they're getting something out of it or they're doing something because they're getting something directly out

[00:16:03] of it as opposed to just being a good at least appearing like just being a good person. Yes. When I remember when I worked on Capitol Hill, you know, some politicians routinely spent time with members of the other party. And that was a very, very important thing.

[00:16:20] I mean, has AOC ever hung out socially with a Republican? I mean, they've been sitting around the middle of the night for a while. And that's what I think is very important in a Republican party.

[00:16:34] You know, it's like, yeah, I've been talking about this and I think I'm going to have a lot of that. And I think we're going to have a lot of that. So if you knew what you were talking about, you know, you know,

[00:16:46] AOC ever hung out socially with a Republican? I don't know. And it would be great if they did. They should go on a bike ride. They should go and have scones at a patisserie someday, and just go hang out. Oh, I wanna ask you about David.

[00:17:07] Like so you've been working with David since about 2000 or 2001. 2001, yeah. And one thing, one story you tell about David is that is very interesting is he's very good at taking constructive criticism, which I think is an important skill. Like you spoke about a talk he gave

[00:17:27] and he asked you, and he said to you afterwards, he didn't ask you, he said to you afterwards, well that went well, and you said that was horrible. Which, A, I admire your guts to say exactly that. I'm assuming those were your words,

[00:17:39] or that was awful, something like that. And then he asked why? And listened, and then over the years, he improved using the suggestions you gave him that one evening. And it seems like that's a very important ability among these, so in David's a billionaire,

[00:17:56] you say in the book he's worth 3.3 billion. He runs the Carlisle Group. He's been on this podcast several times. Carlisle Group is probably the most powerful investment group on the planet. And he's got a fascinating story, and you have many experiences with him.

[00:18:09] When you first met him, what was the story? So, he's very even keeled. He's not high, he's not low. He's like almost flat, very straightforward. And he's witty, he's very funny. And he is very transactional, which I like. Get to the point.

[00:18:35] Let's not get bogged down with silly emotion. Not that it's never there, but the ratio is right. 80-20, logic emotion, I think. And so here I am, I didn't know him that long. We're at this event, he gives this talk that I think is terrible.

[00:18:53] And what I concluded, and this is how I couched it in the book, is that it's the courage to give and get constructive criticism. Because some people have no interest in receiving it because their poopy don't stink. And then some people are scared to give it

[00:19:10] because they're worried about their career. And they think that if they're too honest with the boss, they will be marginalized. And my view is you as the principal need to be open to growth, so you should actively solicit input from your subordinates.

[00:19:30] And then if you're on the subordinate, you have to step up and don't be a message taker but be an advisor. Because if David said, as he did, well, that was good. What did you think? If I had just said, oh, David, you're great.

[00:19:45] Oh my gosh, that was amazing. Just pat him on the back. What good, I was a message taker. I served no purpose whatsoever other than helping assuage his ego. But instead I said, no, that was terrible presentation for these five reasons. And he didn't fire me.

[00:20:04] And the next year he did the same exact event, 2,500 people, Radio City Music Hall in New York, and he knocked the cover off the ball. Now is it because of me? No, he had given 100 speeches between in that intervening year, but he took to heart.

[00:20:23] And this is what makes him a special leader is that he listens. He's not the kind to say, oh my Chris, that was a great point. He will listen and he will absorb. And he will act on some of it. He'll reject some of it.

[00:20:38] But that, he has the courage to receive it. And thankfully I had the courage to give it. And then that empowered me. I mean, I talked to him two days ago and I said, I think here are some things for you to think about.

[00:20:52] He didn't ask me my opinion. I just told him my opinion. At this point, I like to think he keeps me around because I'm one of the few people who tells him exactly what I think and what he needs to hear and not what he wants to hear.

[00:21:04] And I would encourage your listeners, like those are the kind of bosses you should seek out. The ones who are secure enough to want to grow and give you the opportunity to help them along the way. And I think very important in that,

[00:21:20] in your giving of constructive criticism is the word constructive. Like you have to actually give well thought out and easy to follow suggestions to improve. If you're gonna say something's awful, you better have a reason why and a solution to improving it.

[00:21:39] I think that's very important as you did. Yeah, exactly. There's another lesson in there regarding helping Arthur Loveit be his best because he would come to the office every day with like five new ideas. And the staff are there to say, oh, that's crazy, don't do that.

[00:21:56] This one has hope. Let's put that on the back burner. And this other one here, this is really good. This is actionable, let's get going. And so it requires you again, this is the difference between a message taker

[00:22:10] and an advisor is I actually came up with a construct like this five step way of how do you critique someone's ideas? Are they actionable? Are they principled? Are they legal? How expensive are they? So if you actually come up with criteria,

[00:22:31] then it helps you be a better advisor. Again, I think James, what you just said is so important that if someone says, hey, what did you think? And you either are too scared to say anything or if you do, you can't back it up.

[00:22:47] Well, then that person's not benefiting. And the whole goal is to help the principal, the boss, grow and be their most effective. Yeah, so I actually, I bookmarked the Arthur Levitt criteria, like strategy does a further or a strategic goal,

[00:23:09] creativity is a fresh and interesting and so on. What do you mean by principled? Well, these days, people do and say things that I think are unmoored from actually having either a management philosophy or principles or even ethically so or morally so.

[00:23:34] Maybe I'm just old school, but I think as leaders, whether you're in the government world or the corporate world, what you are saying and espousing should be principled, ethical, they should be balanced. It gets back to that TED Talk I did on race relations.

[00:23:54] And if you start, if you're operating premise is that I love other humans because they are other humans, I'm gonna act a certain way. And if you're a leader and you approach your decision making and your agenda within an eye towards appropriateness

[00:24:14] and ethics and the like, you will then act a certain way. And that's what as citizens or employees, we should be driving towards in terms of how we sanction or praise our leaders. And we've just gotten away from that. People lie all the time now as politicians

[00:24:37] and we're just kind of immune to it. And it's just crazy. And so with David, another story is basically, you tell this interesting story where you're trying to raise money for a nonprofit organization and you describe your approach to David and he gives you criticism.

[00:24:59] He says that's totally wrong. He says wrong, wrong, wrong. And he gives you the exact opposite and what we know about David and what you say about David is that he is phenomenal at raising money. I mean, Carlisle Group has half a trillion dollars essentially that he raised.

[00:25:15] He's maybe the best. Maybe he's raised more money than anyone else on the planet in history. And so describe that like how does he raise money? Because okay, like I could just say when I was in the finance, it was very hard to raise money.

[00:25:30] It's very hard to hold out your hand and say, hey, can you give me some money for these reasons? David's effective at raising money. Usually, well, I'll rattle off what I think are the key reasons. One is that he usually has a good cause.

[00:25:47] So Carlisle had good returns. So if you go to someone and say, we want you to commit to our newest fund and here are returns, here's the team, here's the market conditions and here's our approach, people are gonna find that compelling or if he's raising money for

[00:26:05] Lincoln Center or the Kennedy Center or some, the Council on Foreign Relations, he believes in it. So you really have to believe in the product or the organization or the cause or whatever it is. And when he, and he doesn't, he's not a back slapper.

[00:26:21] When people see him on your show, they realize that fast. And when they see him on his Bloomberg shows and all that, he's not this effervescent back slapping poll. He is very measured. So David is like the facts. I'm gonna tell you about the firm

[00:26:38] and tell you about our returns and tell you about this organization. I'm gonna tell you what we're gonna do with your $10 million if you give it to us. Very factual, very balanced. And I long said that if you hired a speech coach or presentation trainer and said,

[00:26:54] I'm gonna describe someone to you and then you described David Rubenstein without telling them that it was David Rubenstein, the trainer would say, oh, that's totally wrong. That's not how you do it. And I'd say, well, it's David Rubenstein and he's one of the most sought after speakers

[00:27:09] and fundraisers in the world. And the reason is, is because he is authentic and he breaks the mold. He's very fact-based and he's incredibly articulate and knowledgeable. You know, if he goes to a sovereign wealth fund in Abu Dhabi to go raise money,

[00:27:29] the first half hour is spent talking about the global economic and political situation. And because they want to pick his brain because they know he interviewed J Powell of the Fed last week. He just talked with President Biden. He just met with Jamie Dimon at JP Morgan.

[00:27:50] But he is totally in the mix and he has this knowledge that's super current. So that half hour spent is demonstrating that A, he's connected and B, that he is very knowledgeable. And then when he then pitches the latest Carlisle fund, they're gonna take it more seriously.

[00:28:12] So it's a very human nature type of thing. There's a little foreplay is always a good thing before you go in for the kill. And he understands that. What about when he was first starting and he didn't necessarily have the brand and he didn't necessarily have

[00:28:27] the president returning his phone calls? Like, so 1987, he's managing $5 million. How does he get beyond that? That is a whole nother part of his personality which was he's indefatigable. If someone said, you need to go, we'll use Abu Dhabi again,

[00:28:44] you need to go to Abu Dhabi five times in the next three months to get a $5 million commitment, he would do it. He will fly around the world on and then he was flying commercial, not private. And he would do it five times to demonstrate his commitment

[00:29:03] and to make people feel comfortable. So, and he will do that today. And he will fly anywhere to go seal the deal. And now that Carlisle has new leadership, I mean they are putting David to work. They're sending him everywhere

[00:29:20] because he's one of the most notable financiers in the world. And when he shows up for that family office in Taiwan or the sovereign wealth farm in Abu Dhabi, like they take him seriously but he is willing to put the work in

[00:29:40] which gets back to that advice that he gave me for how to raise money. So he told me my approach was totally wrong because my approach was you ask once and the people who they give or they don't give.

[00:29:53] And he's like, wrong, wrong, wrong, just as you said. And he said, the way you do it is you ask again and again and again and again until they give. That's how you do it. And I said, well, don't you get annoying?

[00:30:04] And he said, well, it's not like you're getting the money. A good cause is getting the money. So don't worry about that. And so that's what I did. I was as annoying as could be in terms of being persistent.

[00:30:16] And I think I tripled the amount of money I raised. So it's that indefatigable nature and the persistence. Like David is, he either goes under, over, around or through the obstacle. So that level of intensity and purpose animates everything he does.

[00:30:38] And I think just going in just from these podcasts I think it's the fact that he is so even keeled and flat and so knowledgeable and a believer in whatever it is he's raising. Actually the more people see him, the more they get that aspect of him.

[00:30:55] And so it makes it more likely that they're going to give money whether it's for a charitable cause or to the Carlo group or whatever. Yeah, you know what's reminding me of something. So we spent the past four years producing a new PBS series called Iconic America.

[00:31:11] And if your listeners haven't checked it out, you should, it's on PBS. You can stream it for free. And so we're all used to David's style. You know, David's style, he's got this rye humor. It's kind of flat, little monotone. So the Wall Street Journal writes a review.

[00:31:28] Their TV critic writes a review and said, wow, this series is great. I love the topic. Ooh, but that Dave Ruben's dying. He's kind of boring. We're like, we all looked at that and said, hey, that's David. That's what makes him special. And we're just used to it.

[00:31:42] And so are his fans. So if you listen to him on Bloomberg or he's on SquawkBox all the time or PBS, you're used to that. And it actually redounds to his benefit because he's not a glad hander back slapper. You actually think he's serious

[00:32:00] and knows what he's talking about. But this Wall Street Journal TV critic was used to the more effervescent personality. And so we didn't take offense of that. It was like, hey, that's David. That's what makes him special. You know, you've seen, working with him for over 20 years

[00:32:19] and with many of these people, you've seen them not only get older and hopefully wiser, but also accumulate large amounts of money. Now Dave Ruben's seen him sure was very wealthy when you met him, but he's become a multi-billionaire since you've met him.

[00:32:34] And how does that change one's life, do you think? Like what have you seen change both in terms of like, let's say the physical manifestation of it as well as just personality? Well, the three founders of Carl Isle, so there are three of the four billionaires

[00:32:54] and there's another guy named Orlando Bravo and he runs a private equity firm and he's a client and he's a billionaire. And they all take this as a responsibility that it's not just a license to go crazy and buy 300-foot yachts and things like that.

[00:33:14] Which is one of the reasons why I like these people as humans and enjoy working with them because they view their circumstances a blessing and that they must give back. So I think once you're, when they were on the Forbes 400, which is the list of 400 wealthiest people

[00:33:31] in the United States for the first time, I think it then like whacks them over the head and they say, wow, I actually am really rich. What am I gonna do with this money? So there's duty and I saw that emerge and evolve over time.

[00:33:48] For example, Bill Conway, who's one of the founders of Carl Isle, had a 20 year personal investment outside the firm exited this, I estimate he made a couple of hundred million dollars on the deal. And I said, Bill, congratulations. And he said, thanks, now I have to figure out

[00:34:06] how to get the money away. So for a normal human, normal meaning of a modest financial means, like this notion of being wealthy as a burden is incomprehensible. Like you don't understand it at all. Like how could that be a burden?

[00:34:26] And it actually is because once your basic needs are met, food, clothing, shelter and all that kind of stuff, they have billions of dollars. And you have to figure out what do I do with this money because I don't wanna leave it to my kids

[00:34:40] and ruin their lives. And I don't want some foundation to give it away and who knows if they'll represent my objectives. So it took them a while to earn it. And then they have to be very thoughtful on how they give it away.

[00:34:54] So I've seen each of these billionaire people I know work very hard at giving it away in a thoughtful manner that will actually do good and not just writing a check so I can get the money out of my account. So it's been fascinating,

[00:35:10] and you know, just fascinating talking with people who have that much money. And they're really like everyone else. The working title of this book for five years was Rich People Have Feelings Too, which everyone thinks is hilarious but a bit divisive because most people don't care

[00:35:28] of Rich People Have Feelings. But I've used it, that is a working title because having worked with super successful people for so long, I realized that they're really like everyone else. They just have a lot more money. Meaning they have insecurities, they have fears.

[00:35:45] And yeah, they don't worry about food, clothing, shelter, daycare, elder care the way the rest of us do. But they still have, they're still human. And then they feel many of them burdened with this money, meaning that the duty of giving it away is overwhelming.

[00:36:04] I mean, if you had a billion dollars and you gave it away in $20 million chunks, that's 50, $20 million gifts. And I think that's 50, yeah, from my math is right. And then like just, you can't just write a $20 million check to the local charity because they can't spend it well.

[00:36:23] So you have to do all this due diligence. So like five organizations times 50 gifts, that's 250 organizations you would have to do diligence on to figure out who can you give the money to? It is a blessing and occurs at the same time. It's really fascinating.

[00:36:55] You know, there's one common theme that runs through the various billionaires you discuss. And this almost sounds cliche, but they're extremely above and beyond action oriented. So like we were talking about David Rubin's scene before the podcast began.

[00:37:11] He's not just busy, it seems like he's doing so many things that you couldn't conceivably have enough time to do that and have time left over for family and fun and so on. You say something about Bill Conway where he basically says, don't do anything irrelevant.

[00:37:26] And I was curious about that phrase. Like what, how does he define irrelevance? Well, so Bill is the or was from 30 years the Chief Investment Officer at Carlisle. So the buck stopped with him. Do we invest this money in this company or not?

[00:37:43] So it's a gigantic burden, you know, to write a multi-billion dollar check to buy the Acme company is just a huge responsibility. And, you know, Carlisle founders were very good at dividing and conquering in terms of their duties. So Bill focused on the investment process

[00:38:06] and the team that did those, the investing. Dan kind of ran the firm and David was the strategist fundraiser and face of the firm. So I actually recount in the book where since I was the PR guy, you know, I would go to Bill occasionally and say,

[00:38:26] hey Bill, do you want to talk to New York Times about this? And he'd say, no, I don't want to talk to them. I got it. It's like totally irrelevant to me. I need to go manage $300 billion. So sometimes he would see me coming down the hall

[00:38:37] and he would like change direction or he would avoid my office because if I saw him, I'd say Bill, Bill, I need to talk to you. And then when I told him this, when I was running the book, he's like, oh did I really do that to you?

[00:38:52] And I said, oh yes, you did and you know you did, but I don't take it personally because your job was to focus on what's important, which is managing the money for investors not doing podcasts with James Altesher, who was a wonderful human being.

[00:39:07] But that's why David did it because David's the face of the firm. So they were, I learned a lot from that about how to allocate time and you know, focus on what's important versus what is irrelevant. Yeah, and again, even like with Arthur Levitt, very action oriented.

[00:39:24] Like you described this one story which actually made me wonder about his mental health but you describe where he kind of gives you a list of things to do and while he's still describing the list, he asked you, so how's it going so far?

[00:39:37] Like he expected you to already be working on the list. He did, anyway, it was this, like there was this quizzical moment where he said, so how's it going? And I said, how's what going? And he said, well, the first I had him on the list

[00:39:49] and I said, how can I be working on the list if I'm here talking to you? And he's like, you better get going. You know, it's like, it is a mindset. You know, it's because people have said to me, what are these kind of main attributes

[00:40:04] of these super successful people and intensity is definitely one of them. Where Mitch Daniels super intense, Lou Gershner from IBM who saved IBM in the 90s, very intense, they're super focused. I mean, that doesn't mean they don't like to chit chat once in a while

[00:40:27] but when you are around them, you better be ready for the intensity both to give it and to get it. When they ask you a question, boom, you better have a good answer. And one of the things I talk about, especially in the introduction to the book is

[00:40:43] like I went from this kind of middle class minor league type of environment to the majors in Washington where working with these senior government officials, these billionaires and I just really had to up my game and so they just wanted to be the sponge,

[00:41:03] just learning and absorbing from these people. And I say, and that's why there are 15 people on there because I sat down and I said, all right, I have worked with immensely successful people. What did they learn from each of them?

[00:41:17] And literally went through all the people I've worked for that are these super big wigs. And that's how I came up with 50 lessons because they're, and they're not just work hard. Of course you should work hard. And there are a couple in there about like that,

[00:41:30] but most of them are these like super specific things like with Kasek act like irrelevant even when you're not. And this is really great one from Bill Conway that's called it's not how much you pay, it's if you do the deal.

[00:41:44] And I've had, oh my gosh, I have had a bunch of people and these are people in their fifties who are like on the tail end of their careers say that lesson made more of an impact on me than any other lesson in the book.

[00:41:59] This book is not just for 25 year olds, you know, you're a 50 year old. And so what that lesson means it's not how much you pay it's if you do the deal is very much focused on how, of focusing on the right priorities. And again, it's not surprising

[00:42:16] that this is a Bill Conway lesson because too often people will say, all right, I'm only gonna pay a billion dollars for that company because it's not worth a penny more than a billion dollars for it. And then someone comes in and bids 1.1 billion dollars

[00:42:31] and say, I am not paying a penny over a billion and you don't get the deal. But then they knock the cover off the ball and you missed out. Why? Because you focus less on do I really wanna own that company and make a slightly smaller profit

[00:42:48] because I'm paying a little more or do I just fixate on the cost? And so I watch with my wife stock tank every night. And so someone comes in there and says, I'm gonna sell you 10% of my company for $100,000.

[00:43:05] And then Mark Cuban says, hey, I like your company. I'll give you that $100,000 but I want 20% of your company. And they're like nothing a million years, no way. And I yell on the TV and I say, listen, here's a billionaire who is immensely successful

[00:43:21] who will radically change the trajectory of your firm and your life. And you're not gonna give them 20% of the firm. Are you insane? Because they're fixated not on whether you do a deal with Mark Cuban, they're fixated on whether or not

[00:43:38] I give up 10% of equity or 20% of equity, which is the wrong thing to focus on. Like I had this young girl, a white mentor who said to me, I have a job offer from Blackstone and they wanna pay me $70,000. And I am not taking that job

[00:43:54] because I am worth $75,000. And I said, you are insane. It is the best investment firm on the planet. It will change the trajectory of your career and your life. You'll meet more amazing interesting people and you could ever imagine who cares about the $5,000.

[00:44:10] She's like, wow, I never thought about it that way. I said, well, that's how you have to think about it. And she took the job. And that lesson is just immensely powerful. It is really powerful. You know, and there's kind of a nuance to that,

[00:44:24] particularly with the shark tank example. If Mark Cuban owns 20% of your company, as opposed to let's say, let's take an extreme, as opposed to 1% of your company, you actually got more value in that deal than you think because now he's gonna care more about your company.

[00:44:42] And Mark Cuban caring more is what's gonna make you money as opposed to you owning 99% instead of 80%. That's exactly it. But we focus on the wrong things. And like we used to know at Carlisle, like we'd have these new people join

[00:45:00] and they were gonna run us a new fund. And then they get all persnickety about their business card. And my team had been there for 20 years and we'd look at each other and say, they're not gonna last long. Because they focus on the wrong thing.

[00:45:16] Who cares about your business card? Are you out there kicking butt and investing or not? Anyway, so focus on the right things and it becomes muscle memory over time. You will act, the more you do it and get used to focusing on the right things,

[00:45:32] you really get a good sense of what are the right things? And you know, it's interesting. Can you tell us one story in the book that the story is not about what I'm about to say, but it was an interesting story. You personally were negotiating with David

[00:45:49] over your job at one point and he was very, very direct. Like it seems like with a lot of these guys there's no fluff. Like they're just, they cut out all the fat in a conversation or in a negotiation. They get right to the point.

[00:46:06] And you know, essentially you had a mild discussion with Goldman Sachs about going from Carlisle to be heading crisis communications at Goldman Sachs. And this was right after the financial, it was in 2011. And of course all these people talk where it gets back to David Rubenstein.

[00:46:24] He calls you 8.45 AM the next day and says, I hear you're talking to Goldman Sachs. Well, we want you to stay. What will it take? And you're kind of like a little tongue tight. So he says, well, it will take this, this, this and this.

[00:46:40] And you say, yeah, that would be about to do it. He says, okay, I'll call you back in 15 minutes. He calls you back and it's done. That was an amazing story. That one's called the power of transactional thinking. And again, this is like,

[00:46:53] how do you focus on the right things? And a lot of people would, in David's position would have said, you betrayed me, can't trust you anymore. How could you do this to me after all I've done for you? Your future here is...

[00:47:11] So when I got that phone call from him- You were so nervous, you were scared. I was too close to nervous because- You knew the phone call was coming. Yeah, because my immediate boss heard first, he then told Rubenstein, Rubenstein and then this is what's brilliant about David

[00:47:26] is David says, these are the five reasons you would talk to Goldman. So he's empathizing with me as a human. That, oh, they're gonna pay you more, it's a great name, you're gonna learn a lot of the intense time and all the cool stuff.

[00:47:42] And I said, and I start to explain that I'm not looking for a job. He's like, just be quiet. He said, I don't want you to leave. This is what I'll do, just as you noted. Now, what's interesting about this, when I was writing the book,

[00:47:51] people would read these lessons and say, this doesn't happen. This is just so obvious. Any leader would never do what you're concerned about. And I'd say, you don't know what you're talking about because there was another time at Carlisle where there was a very senior person

[00:48:07] who reacted very badly when another senior person left. And then in the back on the way out the door, which is stupid. If someone's leaving, you think you've got it that you need to de-emotionalize situation. It's not about you.

[00:48:27] Like someone will say, why are you doing this to me? I'm not doing anything to you. I have my family, I have my career to manage and I'm managing it. And so I had seen, it's actually, I'll give you another, this amazing contemporary example.

[00:48:45] So there was an article about David Solomon just the other day who's the CEO of Goldman Sachs under attack, things are a little better right now but under attack and a lot of people want them out. And in this article it said that

[00:49:01] if a journalist has written an article about, David Solomon doesn't like the article, he won't talk to that reporter anymore. Now this guy's 55 years old, acting like a 15 year old because, and there's a lesson in the book, I should send this to Solomon.

[00:49:22] There's a lesson where Arthur Levitt when he was SEC chairman was under attack by some member of Congress for abusing his travel budget and it was total BS. But Business Week writes an article about it and we tried to make it a little better

[00:49:36] but it was still a terrible article because it's questioning his ethics. And most people would have said, you're dead to me, I'm never talking to you again. Even my PR people won't talk to you. Arthur turned on the charm offensive.

[00:49:52] He took her to breakfast, he took her to lunch, gave her scoops. Four years later, Business Week does a cover story on Arthur. She is one of the authors and it's called him the investor's advocate with his Moses-like photo. I mean, it was amazing.

[00:50:07] Two years after that, he co-authors his memoir. Think about that. Oh my gosh. If he took the Solomon approach, none of that would have happened and he would have had an enemy. So much of, like someone might say to me,

[00:50:28] what's your state of mind to actually absorb these lessons? And I say, you just gotta be a little humble because if you see someone like Arthur Levitt think long-term and de-emotionalize, maybe that would work for you too. Or if you see Rubenstein, his ability to pivot

[00:50:52] from an unfavorable situation to a good situation, maybe I should too. Or like Kasich reaching across the aisle. Like maybe I could benefit from that too. So I determined that if people just have a modicum of humility then these lessons will really take root in them,

[00:51:16] have a huge impact. Can you give us a story about David Rubenstein pivoting from an unfavorable situation to a favorable one? Cause I think that is a big deal. Yeah, but here's, this is a wild one. So David was shopping for a Bar Mitzvah gift for his son.

[00:51:34] So he's at a Jewish bookstore and the rabbi who's a scribe says, I have a Torah scroll that is of Holocaust provenance. Meaning they actually discovered it in a concentration camp but it needs repair and David said, I will buy it and I will repair it.

[00:51:55] And so this guy then repairs it. David in this very elaborate ceremony gives it to Central Synagogue which is a very prominent synagogue in New York City. And then six months later we find out it's a fraud. Oh my gosh. The guy faked it.

[00:52:13] So I remember telling David and imagine delivering that after all we went through and we had Holocaust survivors at the ceremony where we handed this over. I mean, it was a beautiful situation that was then marred by this fraud. So David is basically for like 15 seconds says,

[00:52:35] holy crap, that's insane. Then in his swivel chair turns around, calls the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, gets a director on the phone and says, I need the top scholar in the world on Torah scrolls. Get that guy on the phone and says,

[00:52:54] we got a problem, I need you to help me solve it. I need to get a replacement. And if it takes repair, I'm gonna buy it, I'm gonna replace it and Central Synagogue will have an authentic Holocaust era Torah scroll.

[00:53:09] And he did, like he didn't ring his hands for days and weeks. Then I'm a victim. It was amazing. It was actually a stunning process to watch because people love to ring their hands, victim, victim, victim. And David's not like that. David has got a lot to do,

[00:53:30] even calls it sprinting to the finish. He has so many things he's trying to jam in. A lot of things, limited time, who has time for ringing your hands? Do you feel like all of these people you speak of, do you feel like their ambition never ends?

[00:53:47] Do you think they're driven right up until the last moment? Or do you think at some point they just say, enough's enough, I'm gonna just take it easy? Never ends. I always wonder about this. Like I wanted to end sometime.

[00:54:02] I wanna hope that in the future it ends. Not life, but like the desire for, and I don't mean the desire for more accumulation, but the desire for more, I don't know, career or ambition or whatever it is. Well, I think that's an excellent point.

[00:54:21] I think so much depends on what you're seeking. If it's just more money, what's the point? I mean, once you have three billion, why do you need five? But if it's just accolades from strangers, I'm not sure what the point of that is either.

[00:54:38] If it's, and again, this is all very highly judgmental and it's also reflective of how I'm trying to live my life, is if the intensity can be directed towards putting my wisdom, resources, connections to use, then why not?

[00:54:57] Like this notion of like David has been asked for years, what do you do to relax, have fun or go on vacation? And he used to say, I have no hobbies. And I would say, you even may have asked him that question years ago when we first met.

[00:55:10] And I said, David, stop saying you don't have any hobbies because you do have hobbies. Your hobbies are reading, traveling and meeting people, really need people all around the world. Like what's wrong with that? Just because you don't play golf or watch the latest Netflix series

[00:55:28] doesn't mean you don't have hobbies. So he kind of embraced that. So I think the key, especially for your more seasoned or older listeners' viewers, is to say how can I use all of this accumulated resources and wisdom to actually give back in a substantial way?

[00:55:54] And yeah, maybe I'll ratchet back on my actual job, but people like that need to be engaged because they have the money, they have the time, they have the connections, they have the wisdom. I think their duty is to give back.

[00:56:11] And it's interesting because the book is titled Four Billionaires and a Parking Attendant. So A, I mean there is valuable lessons from the parking attendant. The chapter on happiness is very interesting where he seems like a very happy guy. And you contrast that with something David Rubinstein

[00:56:31] said how he doesn't really know a lot of happy billionaires. And is that truly that he doesn't really know a lot of happy billionaires? And of course the parking attendant is a good example that happiness is really uncorrelated to money. There are a lot of studies on that.

[00:56:50] It's correlated depending on which ones you read but like up to like 70, 80, 90,000 or something like that. And this gentleman, the parking attendant I assume is below that but nonetheless was still happy. What I find fascinating about David's claim is that he's consistent with saying it.

[00:57:14] You know, he knows a lot of billionaires. So I take him at face value. The four billionaires I know seem reasonably happy but you never know for sure. The reason I put Sala and that's the parking attendant's first name in the book is that

[00:57:35] I really love this juxtaposition between someone's lot in life on the lower socioeconomic part of the spectrum where I drive my car and he parks it every day for four years and but big bright smile, Ethiopian immigrant learning English but happy literally every day.

[00:57:58] Mr. Chris, how are you? How's your family? How's your weekend? And it's always cold or hot and dark in the garage. And then there's this juxtaposition you take the elevator up 40 feet and there's all these billionaires and all this money sloshing around

[00:58:16] and Rubenstein said he doesn't know many happy billionaires. He said, how the heck is that possible? So Sala just inspired me and is a powerful reminder to focus on things other than material possessions. Now again, most people do worry about money

[00:58:37] because they do have to take care of their daycare and their healthcare and their old parents. So wealthy people don't have that, which is why this is extra duty I believe to make to do good with their resources because they are effectively absolved

[00:58:56] of most of the normal human stress that people have. And but Sala was a great reminder of, hey, focus on what's important is two children's wife's faith and serving his parking clients well. And like that is an honorable life. And you know, it's very interesting

[00:59:20] because what I impart what I get out of that lesson and several of the other stories that you've told today and that you've written about is that you are curious and listen to the parking attendant and of course the billionaires and the politicians and so on and on.

[00:59:38] Like you have achieved success. This is the reason why David Rubenstein called you at 8.45 in the morning and says, we have to keep you here is you're listening to these people and treating them equally, the parking attendant and the billionaires. And a lot of people don't do that.

[00:59:59] You know, this has been your kind of trademark to success. David Rubenstein raises a lot of money. Bill Conway, you know, does the deal you're listening and learning from all of these people around you and it doesn't matter what their title is and who they are.

[01:00:14] If you feel there's a lesson there, you get it. Well, in the end, my faith says, love God, love your neighbor. It's a simple message. It's difficult to do, but it is the mandate. And so try to live it. I'm a sinner, I'm imperfect,

[01:00:34] but every day I try to say, love God, love my neighbor. Just as a mantra. And as Rubenstein himself says, you can't take that wealth with you. The Egyptians tried it and it did not work. So, you know, I've got a fancy car

[01:00:50] and two houses and a nice 401K. And you know, it's all ephemeral in the scheme of time and from an eternity standpoint, it's as irrelevant as can be. So therefore, focusing on fellow creatures of God, world children of God, like that's where it's at.

[01:01:16] I mean, so that doesn't mean I live like a pauper, but my wife and I do give a lot of money away and during COVID we made a point of finding individual humans who are suffering writing pretty nice size checks. Say, here you go, no strings attached.

[01:01:36] We're happy to help. That's really great. And I guess a final question is, you've been the right hand person for so many of these larger than life characters. You know, whether it's John Kasich, Arthur Levitt, David Rubenstein, Bill Conn, all the names you mentioned and many more.

[01:01:57] And they're all of these in, you know, we're primates. So we always have this status hierarchy from alpha down to omega. And they're like these super alphas, you know, running for president, head of the SEC, head of the largest private equity firm that ever existed.

[01:02:18] And you're next to them. Do you ever feel the ambition to, hey, I'm gonna go and do this. Did you ever feel that urge to be at the top of that hierarchy? Now I guess yes and no. Yes in that I tried to figure out

[01:02:37] what am I really good at in whistling. So I tried to be at the top of that hierarchy and succeeded for 10 years in PR world, whether it's working on Capitol Hill or White House or, so I was definitely at the top of my profession from a PR standpoint.

[01:02:57] So very grateful to have had those opportunities. So those, so yes in that sense, but they were very fixated or focused on what am I actually good at? And I'm good at whistling and I'm good at PR.

[01:03:12] So it might as well try to be my best in those two areas. Do I wanna run for president, not in a million years? Do I wanna be SEC chairman? No. Do I wanna do what it takes to be a billionaire like David? No.

[01:03:26] Because there are definitely trade-offs. And he traveled all the time, didn't see his family a lot when his kids were little. Actually, there was a moment when I was thinking about leaving the White House and I couldn't think and go to Carlisle or stay in the White House.

[01:03:43] And then I talked to someone who had my job at one point and he said, listen, you should stay if you want to be the White House spokesman at some point or at least position yourself for that job. And I said, I don't want that job.

[01:03:58] And he said then you should leave because Carl will be a great job. And I stayed for 18 years. So, you know what? Because I do like to watch Homeland on what? Yeah. And no, I don't watch a lot of TV but there are a couple of these,

[01:04:15] you know, cool government intrigue types that I do watch. And David doesn't watch any of that stuff. And I do like to go ride my bicycle because it actually helps me write my books better. And I do love to spend time with my kids

[01:04:27] because they just delight me. And my wife and I need to look going on dates. So, you know, I try to, I've actually, I could argue I have like the perfect life. I mean, perfect in that I have these people I love around me. I have disposable income.

[01:04:44] I live in America. I live in Washington. So, I count my blessings every day. So now, I know everybody probably asked you this but and I was debating whether they ask you this but can I hear you whistle? I would be honored. Okay.

[01:05:03] So, here's Take the A Train made famous by Duke Ellington but written by Billy Strayhorn. There we go. I think it was worth the wait. That was amazing. You really feel like the emotions of the song like it's beautiful.

[01:05:59] Oh, that warms my heart because that's what it's about. You know, it's great writing and storytelling and being a musician is really about telling a story and notes. So, if it can move your heart then that's what makes it special. That was great. That was beautiful.

[01:06:15] Thank you for doing that. I felt bad asking. Sometimes people don't like to do their magic trick. In my first book on Find Your Whistle there are these very funny stories of like being the pet monkey or the train monkey where people snap their fingers and say,

[01:06:31] come over here and whistle. And I'm happy to do it. It is really a lot of fun. Well, Chris Ollman author of Find Your Whistle and your new book, Four Billionaires and a parking attendant, success strategies of the wealthy, powerful and just plain wise. Great books.

[01:06:54] I really enjoy them so much to learn from you and from the people you've learned from. And also I appreciate all the help you've done. I mean, I've had such a great time interviewing David that it's always a pleasure having him on the show as well

[01:07:09] and I know you've been instrumental in organizing that as well. And I just really appreciate everything you do and thank you so much for coming on the show. Well, it's my pleasure and honor James. Thank you for having me and excited to hear

[01:07:23] more of the interviews you do. You always have cool people on. Thank you.