Comedy, Horror, and NYC Real Estate: The Feature Film | Sally Struthers & Allan Piper

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Thank you guys for coming on the podcast, Sally. It's an honor. I've been a huge fan since. I've been a kid. I, I saw Al probably every episode of All in the Family. Alan, I've been researching you as part of the research for Evil Sublet and, and this podcast.

How are you two doing? Oh, it's, uh, it's a great day here in New York. Uh, uh, we, uh, we miss you in New York. Well, I do miss New York. Actually. My daughters live there. My family lives there. It's, uh, and New York City's a very special place. Uh, you have daughters? I have two daughters, yeah. They're both living in Brooklyn.

How old are they? James? 20. Where in Brooklyn And how old are they? 20 and 24. And they kind of live in, I don't know, one of the new Williamsburg hip areas. They're trying to be hip, so, uh, but, uh, but they love it. They love Manhattan and, and they love New York City and they love, uh, working there. And, and I lived there for 30 years, so, um, You know, I miss it and I miss them when they're not, when I'm not around them, but I'm sure.

Tell me about how congratulations, by the way, evil sublet winning best feature film at the Co Coney Island Film Festival. How did that feel? Oh, that felt wonderful. Uh, I am, It was very important to us that we screen at the Coney Island Film Festival. Uh, this movie is a, is a very new Yorky film, and that's something that I'm very proud of.

I think even though New York is such an important media capital, New York is really not well represented in media. Most, most f films and TV shows that are set in New York are actually filmed somewhere else. And, uh, I wanted to make a movie that really captured New York. And we, we did it. We did it at a time that was, uh, obviously one of the most painful times in New York's history because we were all set to shoot the whole movie in March and April of 2020.

Uh, Sally had, uh, uh, we had her ticket booked to what, to come out for her scenes. And, uh, of course we had to, we had to put everything on hold, uh, and at a time, uh, At a time when some people were giving up on New York, uh, I really got to see New Yorkers pulling together. And uh, I particularly saw that in Coney Island we were invited to film in Dino's Wonder Wheel Park.

Uh, before things, before things got shut down, and in 2020, Dino's Wonder Wheel Park was going to be celebrating the hundredth anniversary of the Wonder Wheel. And of course, it was shut down for the whole, for the whole season. And instead of using their 3D printer to make the celebratory items that they were gonna make, they made face shields.

That they distributed, uh, to the hospitals in the area. Coney Island was one of the neighborhoods that was hardest hit both, uh, both in terms of the death toll and financially and, uh, Dino's Wonder Wheel, amusement Park and the various businesses in Coney Island and Coney Island, USA really played an active role in supporting the community and so, We had the opportunity to, uh, uh, we had the opportunity to show at a, at a festival that, that, uh, that was saying that they would, you know, that they'd be able to get much more, uh, press for us.

But they said, but you have to, you can't show anywhere else first. And there was no way we were not going to show this, uh, this movie, uh, in the beautiful mythical playground that is Coney Island. And, uh, so I'm, I'm just absolutely thrilled that we premiered the movie there and that it won best feature.

So, so when did you shoot it? If you couldn't shoot it in 2020. So we came up with some creative solutions. Uh, the, the movie stars. My wife Jennifer Lee Houston. It is, she's amazing. She's amazing. She's amazing. She's amazing. She should be on this podcast, not me. I have a teeny tiny cameo in this darling film, but, but Alan's wife, Jennifer Lee Houston carries the whole film on her back brilliantly.

She's everything. And then some. Go ahead. I'm sorry, Alan. Well, we, uh, we figured out some ways to shoot with just her in our actually haunted apartment during, uh, during quarantine, uh, and SAG said, well, you know, that's okay. You're, you're locked up in there anyway, so that's fine. Uh, and then we filmed the rest of the movie in 2021 under, uh, sags, uh, COVID safety protocols, and I'm very proud.

That, uh, there were no, uh, we ran a very careful set and there were no infections on the set. And, uh, I was, that's one of the reminders of what's great about having a good union is that SAG provided excellent, uh, details about steps that we could take to ensure that everyone was safe. And, uh, so I was glad to be able to do that.

And how did you two meet for, for the movie We met, oh, well, yeah, Alan and, and his wife Jen and I. We met. It's your dear friends, they had a party. You were there. Yes. What, who was that? Uh, pat Dwyer and Steven Mosher, who play, uh, uh, who play some of the leading roles in this movie, uh, had a party and, uh, and Sally was there and we became friends and then had the amazingly good fortune of, of being able to coax her into, uh, playing a key role in this film.

I worked with a wonderful actress, uh, Leslie Alexander in a musical called Nice Work, if you can get it about, I don't know, six years ago in Ogunquit, Maine. And we've remained friends ever since. And I was visiting New York and I was sl sleeping on her foldout sofa in her living room. And she said, what did you come to a party with me tonight?

And she told me about the two guys whose place it was. And I, I don't even know how she knows them, but she said, there's gonna be. Is not gonna be crowded, but there's gonna be some really interesting people there. My good friends, Alan Piper and his wife, Jen Houston will be there and I think you'll really like them.

We became from that night forward, close, tight, wonderful friends. Jen and Alan are both so multi-talented in so many arenas that they just blow my mind, cuz I only do one thing and that's perform and I can't do anything else. I don't even know how to type. And Jen runs a baking company and. Well, she does a myriad of things.

Alan will tell you all she does, and Alan is on television reporting the news, as well as writing, filming, directing, and editing a movie. I mean, there's nothing Alan can't do. And he comes from a very creative mother who lives in Boston, who is an incredible, uh, portrait artist. And, um, I don't know, there's just art all around.

I'm just tagging along for the ride and, and the movie's about, it's called Evil Sublet. It's about. Basically a sublet, it was even apparently advertised as evil. And the main character, you know, feels like, oh that must stand for East Village. And you know, by soho stands for South of Houston and there's all sorts of horrible and horrific things that happen in this apartment.

What makes, cuz I have no idea what makes a good horror story slash movie. Like how do you scare people who are kind of immune to being scared? They've seen everything, they've seen every horror movie. Well, I think, I think for me, uh, I think for me what always makes a horror movie work is, is the personal relatable aspect.

Uh, ours is a horror comedy. It is, there are, there are gross shocking moments that people who are looking for that will, uh, will enjoy. But there is also a lot of laughs. Uh, but I think, uh, I think. A lot of people, uh, we have an affordable housing crisis in America, especially in New York. I think a lot of people can relate to the idea that, uh, people are willing to.

Put up with a lot of strange things in order to get an affordable apartment. And, uh, certainly in New York that is the case. Yeah, so, so this apartment's, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, it's a thr it's the, the apartment in the, in the movie is a three bedroom apartment for $2,000 a month, which in New York City, just in case nobody realizes this outside of New York, that's impossible.

You would, I don't think you would ever see that right now in New York City, a $3,000, uh, a three bedroom apartment for 2000 a month. So, so as one of the characters says when he, they're being shown through the apartment, uh, the, what's wrong with it because the k it's too good to be true. And our actual apartment, which I wish, I wish it actually were that cheap, but it is, it is still.

We, we get this apartment for, for I think a lot less than a lot of New Yorkers would expect to. And part of it is because weird things. Really do happen here. Uh, I tend to. I'm, I try to be a scientifically minded person so I don't say, oh, it's ghosts. But I will say very strange things happen here. Uh, my wife has felt a cold hand grab her in the night.

She's, uh, heard voices that was your hand and you, and then you ran away really quickly. So she didn't see it was you. It was not me. Uh, and we've had some of the strange things that have happened. We actually managed to catch on camera and, uh, edit into the movie. So we like what? Well, there was a moment.

There was a moment when, so a lot of the things that happen in the movie are recreations of things that really happen here. So there's a moment when an object fell off a shelf on its own, which happens a lot. And there are all sorts of reasons why that could happen. Maybe a subway is passing underneath.

I don't know. But, so we did this scene where, uh, My wife's character comes in, she finds an object, uh, she finds a, uh, picture frame that has fallen off a shelf. It has shattered on the ground, and it's just lying there. And it wasn't until I was actually editing the scene that I saw that while she wasn't looking at it, it, and we'd placed it there.

It hadn't actually fallen. We'd placed it on the floor just nice and solidly on the floor, and it just, Started moving for no reason that I can, that I can particularly explain. So, so that was one instance of something I didn't even know we captured that until I was editing the scene. Again, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not, uh, a paranormal expert.

I'm not gonna say it was a ghost moving it, but I will say I have no idea why it was moving. How old is this building that you and Jen live in? It was built in 1851. They're bound to be paranormal activity. Can you imagine all the people that probably passed away in there had terrible fights? Maybe somebody was even murdered.

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's pretty old. Even for New York City. Like where, where do you live? Like the, in the East Village. In the, literally in the eal, yes. The East Village. Like what was around in the East Village in 1850, because like Tribeca was the area where a lot of people lived in the early 18 hundreds and they worked in sort of the Wall Street area, but Live Tribeca was, was where they lived.

And then places like the Upper West Side were considered almost like suburbs y. Yeah. This, uh, this neighborhood has, uh, has gone through so many iterations, uh, over time. It was a, it was a, a German neighborhood at one point. Uh, it is, it is often. It's often. Taken on, uh, an ethnic immigrant identity and at different points in history, that's different identities, whether it's, uh, a German neighborhood, an Irish neighborhood, a Jewish neighborhood, uh, it is still, um, uh, it is still large parts of this neighborhood are, um, uh, Ukrainian, uh, Families, uh, live here, but it is increasingly becoming, uh, well, it's, it's increasingly shifting and it always shifts.

And that's the nature of New York. And, and I mean, Sally, you're very familiar with New York, uh, all in the family, the, the show you're in for, Infinite number of years, it seems, was, was shot in Astoria, or, or at least No, no. Just the outside of the house was shot for the opening credits we made all in the family at the c b s studios in, uh, Los Angeles.

Okay. But, but the, the, the house that Archie Bunker and you live in is set in Astoria. Yes, in Queens in New York, I, I've never seen it, but I've certainly seen that opening credit thousands of times. Yeah. And you know, I'm a West Coast gal. I was born and raised in Portland, Oregon, and then came down to California to go to college and have been here since.

But in the last 30 years, I've barely been here. I'm a homeowner, but I call it my vacation home because I only see it about seven, eight weeks a year. I'm always on the road. Not traveling, but I mean away from home, living out of a suitcase, doing a play or a musical and every once in a while, a tour.

Mm-hmm. So I'm, uh, but when I'm in New York and I ask somebody where something is, they laugh at me because they think I'm being funny. They think I'm a New Yorker. They think I either made all in the family there. Or that I, I live there and neither is true. And so I really don't know where things are in New York City and the surrounding areas, and I'm always lost.

And, um, people don't seem to understand that. Well, I guess because I mean, they shouldn't understand that because. It's, we buy into the mythology of television and movies that the, we're watching these things because we relate so much and we feel in our brains, like, these are really occurring. Like I'm really watching this family argue about racial issues and social issues.

And, and with this, you know, Carol O'Connor, who plays Archie Bunker as, as such, this New York accent and, and. You know, it feels very real. It's, it, it, you know, I grew up on all in the family and all the spinoffs, you know, the, the Jeffersons and then and so on, and Archie Bunker's place. Gloria, uh, you played Gloria Mod and Good Time was good Times of spinoff of all in the family.

No, but Norman Le was grinding these outright and left all at the same time. And so I, I'm just curious. Like, I feel like there aren't shows anymore, like good Times in All in the family, like good times. Really felt the grittiness of, you know, that part of New York City and, and that family and you just don't, everything feels so fake now compared to shows like that, I don't know.

Seems, uh, you know, just like fashion, humor, and. Filmmaking and everything morphs. Uh, for a couple of years. Men wear wider ties and their lapels are wider on their suits or they're narrower and their shirt styles are different. And then, you know, seven years later that's all out and a new look is in. And the same with women's hem lines.

They're above your knee. They're at your knee, they're below your knee. They're mini, they're maxi, the. Entertainment morphs too, and you, you never know, you know what's coming down the pike. But all in the family took quite a while to get on the air. It was made first two years in a row, a pilot by A, B, C, and each year they.

We're too nervous to put it on the air and just shelved that pile in a, you know, in a back closet. And then they would take it out and dust it off and say, no, we can't put this on. And it was the new president of c b s that finally, eventually put it on the air. So by the time that happened, Rob Reiner and I were the third set of kids.

There had been two mics and two Glorias before us. Oh, really? And I, I heard you were, um, Nervous maybe is the wrong word, but I heard you thought maybe Penny Marshall was gonna be cast as well. She, she was one of the four, uh, girls, I'll say girls, young women, though it was narrowed down to third time around, Rob Reiner had already been cast as Mike stk Archie son-in-law and Carol O'Connor and Jean Stapleton came part and parcel with the project.

They were there from day one, so it was always Carol and Jean playing Archie Edith. So when I went in to meet Norman Lear. And then he narrowed that group, I don't know how many young women he saw, a hundred, 200, and it was narrowed down to four to do the final audition. One of the four was Penny Marshall, and I knew Rob and I knew Penny, and I thought sitting in the outer office, well, The final audition is to go into that room over there and do improvisations with Rob Reiner in front of all these C B s executives and Norman LA's partner Bud Yorken.

And Rob's obviously gonna do better with Penny, either intentionally or unintentionally because they live together and he's gonna marry her and they have that rhythm going and that knowledge of each other, finishing each other's sentences. I don't stand a chance, so it says I don't stand a chance.

There's no reason they get nervous. So I'll just go in there and do what they asked me to do and leave. Well, I'm not getting this, and you know, the end of that story? No. Well actually I don't because what happened in the audition, like, uh, well, I guess it went fine and I got a phone call that I got it and we were making them, and we had eight in the can before everyone on the air.

It aired in January of 71. In those following weeks, it quickly rose to number one on television and we were all. In shock and awe and feeling our oats and trying to get adjusted to being on such a popular show. And I went on a break on camera blocking day over to Norman Lear, who was standing at the sidelines watching down on the sound stage.

And, uh, I said, Norman, remember a couple months back when, when you were still auditioning and there were four of us left to buy for the part of Gloria and. I said I was, I really the funniest one that I get more laugh in that room than the other three gals. And he said, no, I just, I sat down with the writers and we decided if the show has goes on the air and stays on the air and has any longevity, what are we going to get more storylines out of?

And great. Moments having Gloria be her mama's girl or having her be a daddy's girl. And we decided since Archie Bunker was so co contr controversial, there would be people who didn't appreciate his bigotry and his uneducated views. We had to soften him up and the best way to soften him up would have his daughter be his soft spot.

So we hire you because just like Carol O'Connor, you have blue eyes in a fat face. He didn't say that. He said that. Oh, he did. I swear on any Bible that's in my house. He did say that to me. He said that about my face to my face. Oh my God. And I just faded away into the background licking my wounds. And you know, Norman Leer has such an inspiration for, for the whole medium of television.

Like he basically created the whole seventies of television. Him and, and maybe a handful of others, but. What, what, what do you learn from him in terms of telling a story? Like what was, what was, what was his secret of turning this out? You know what, James? I'd rather talk about anything else in mostly evil sublet because I am not a fan of Norman Lears, and we can end that subject right there.

Can you say why you're not a fan? I've got a lot of reasons. Hmm. All right. I, I'd say, I'd say that one comment, uh, would be, uh, would be sufficient enough that, uh, yeah, that would probably make me not a fan if someone said that about my face. But, uh, well, Hmm. Sorry. Go ahead. Nothing, nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

What was it like for you filming a horror film? I mean, I heard that you're, you get scared in horror films, so did you get scared while filming this? I did not get scared, uh, at all because I was with people that I love and my scenes were not scary except for the very last scene I'm in, which is about less than a minute long.

And that's kind of how the film ends. But the other two scenes, uh, my character is living in a storage unit and they're not scary scenes. They're, they're mostly exposition. And then, um, The second big scene in the, in the storage unit is a big reveal about my character and why these people are living in an evil sublet.

Um, and it was, it was fast and furious because when you're on a limited budget, there's no time to do 17 takes and refine the moments. You've gotta trust your actors. And Alan was. Directing and we were in a storage unit way, way out of the city somewhere, and going as fast as we could to get these two scenes done.

And there, there wasn't anything scary happening in the scenes. And, um, he sent, Alan sent the film to, uh, my nephew to, uh, show to me and I watched it on my phone. I've never watched anything on my phone. I. I am not good with buttons. My nephew was just here a few minutes ago and got me set up on this Zoom telephone call cuz I, I don't know how to do anything.

I, I don't type, I, I, I don't wear clothes with buttons. I buttons throw me off. So, um, I thought, oh, how am I gonna watch this? It's so small and I'm so spoiled with a big TV screen and going to a movie house and seeing everything so large and. And, uh, I, I was entranced, I was intrigued. I couldn't put my phone down and, um, when it was over, I was thrilled that I got to be in this movie.

Because when you are a SEP and you look back at your career and you say, is there anything I could have done better? Is there anything I haven't done that I would really like to do? And being in a horror film, like, um, Jamie Lee Curtis, uh, was on my list. What one more film was Jamie Lee Curtis. I forget.

Alan. She's, uh, she, uh, is from Halloween. The, uh Oh, okay. Yeah. Really, really the, uh, uh, the, the film that launched, uh, Slasher the modern slasher genre. Right? She was the, uh, original opponent of, uh, of Michael Myers. I, I will just say, uh, it, well, first of all, I, it, the scariest moment for me on, uh, on this whole project was, uh, when we had, when I had sent, uh, the video to Sally, because I have such.

Admiration, such deep admiration for, for Sally. And, and my goal was to try to make a, a movie that would be worthy of her involvement. And honestly, uh, the, the fact, the fact that she likes it matters more to me than anything else, than, uh, that has happened, uh, with this movie or that will happen. Well, Ellen, was it, was it hard directing Sally, like knowing, I mean, she's this, this icon of, of.

TV history. Well, and I'll, I'll tell you that is something else. I was, I was, I was hard to work with Alan. You can tell him you were not. Uh, it is now I've, I've had the good fortune of, of working with some, some very high profile people. I, I worked on, uh, president Obama's, uh, campaign video team on his, uh, reelection campaign.

Uh, I worked on the, uh, Hillary Clinton campaign and I was the senior politics producer for now This for four years. Which led me to Introdu interview, uh, everyone, uh, who was, uh, everyone, everyone actually, except the incumbent who was running for president in, uh, in 2020. So I have, I've, I don't get, I don't get starstruck so much around, uh, important people, but this was the first time I was directing.

Someone like Sally in a scripted scene that I had written, and I think everyone on set. It was the first day back after having put the whole film on hold for over a year because of Covid 19, and I think all of us were nervous just to be in a room with other people again, and to have that first day be with.

An absolute icon of the American screen. Uh, I think, I think a lot of us felt very intimidated going into that day, and Sally was just such a joy to work with and put everyone at so much ease immediately that, uh, I think, I think a lot of. I think in some ways the positive attitude that Sally engendered on that first day of returning to shooting post quarantine really set the mood for the entire rest of shooting the movie.

And, and I think it really did carry over into, into keeping a positive and happy set. Throughout the whole process. Well, you, you, you talk about me like you and Jennifer Lee Houston, your wife are ogre and that I came in like little Miss Mary sunshine with a straw hat and gloves and made everybody sing, getting to know you.

No, you, you, you, the, the mood on the set, you highly intelligent, so you kind of scare me. And you know, you know a lot about a lot, which makes me feel small. Um, but you don't pontificate like my dead ex-husband. And I like saying My dead ex-husband is that evil. I dunno, that is a little evil. But that, but we'll forgive you and, uh, you, you're, you're, you're just a joy and a pleasure and you're enthusiastic like a 14 year old boy.

And then let's talk about your wife. She is hilarious. And she is sarcastic. Sarcastic and I love really intelligent sarcasm. And she, um, Is a high energy gal. I try to keep up with her when I'm around her, but I'm old enough to be her mother, so it's not easy. So you guys set the tone on the set. I just walked in and I think the, my one contribution to speaking of the set, which was a storage unit in a storage facility, was that I did say to you, Alan, cuz I'm a very literal human being.

I said, if I live in here, uh, I think that we need a bucket and a roll of toilet paper in the background to show that I really live in here. Cuz right now there's a chair and there's a lamp and there's some boxes, but. You got to, you know, human mics go to the bathroom is, sure enough, that button toilet paper is in at scene too.

And it, and the shot of it got a big laugh in, uh, in Coney Island. You know, that's a really good point. Like, Alan, why didn't you think that? Where is she, where is this person who lives in a storage unit gonna go to the bathroom? Uh, well, I, I, I'm, I'm glad that Sally thought of it. It, um, yeah, I always wondered, like in Star Trek where everybody went to the bathroom because it didn't seem like anybody needed to go to the bathroom in the 23rd century.

Yeah. And it doesn't, doesn't seem like those outfits lend themselves to, uh, to getting in and out of for that purpose. I think they're all catheterized, maybe. Yeah. I, I always wondered about that. But you know, Alan, were you a fan of the horror genre before you wrote this? Yes, yes, very much. Uh, and, and I think.

And, and I feel like we're at a moment of increasing love for horror. And I think that often happens historically at moments of great social turmoil that it, when we are processing, uh, real life horror that is, that is often too hard to face. Having a facsimile of horror, I think makes it, uh, makes it easier to deal with, uh, very much.

Very much watching horror movies became my comfort place, uh, during 2020. Uh, and I think that was probably true for a lot of other people. And you, you know what else, oh, sorry. Sorry, go ahead. I'm sorry, James. What, what else you should know about Alan and I found out, so a couple of years ago, I searched around and was able for his birthday to find a couple of things for him that luckily he didn't have because he collects things from Coney Island from way, way back.

And they've got wonderful things all over their, uh, apartment in New York that are Coney Island. And, um, oh, obviously that doesn't surprise me that when he wrote this film, Coney Island was part of the setting of the film. And what, what other, I could think of only one other movie that is known for being set in Coney Island, which is, um, the Woody Allen movie I'm forgetting now.

Wonder Wheel. Yeah. Wonder Wheel. Okay. And what's, what's the one where the, is that the one where the, the rollercoaster, like is going through his house when he is growing up? Oh, Annie Hall. Annie Hall. Hall. That was, yes. And that was, uh, the, I believe that was the original Thunderbolt, which isn't there, uh, anymore.

But, uh, there's, there are a lot of, there are a lot of great Coney Island movies and so I, I'm just, uh, I'm just honored to have, uh, to add our list, to add our film to the list of Coney Island movies. I think, you know, No, go ahead, James. Uh, Alan turned his camera toward the crowd that was there for the Coney Island Film Festival.

Right after this, this group in this room had all watched the film and he had them all, you know, yell and say hi to me, which meant an awful lot. But there was a person there that made. An interesting comment to him, which Alan shared with me, and Alan shared with me the fellow's name, and of course, Alan being an expert on all things.

Coney Island, knew who this guy was and was thrilled he was there. And I had to look him up on my phone, which took me an hour and a half because I don't do buttons. And um, his name is what? Alan Zamora, the torture king. So the one. I, I love film festivals and the world has great film festivals. I really do think the Coney Island Film Festival is the coolest festival in the world because it's the only one where you can, you can see these great movies and then walk outside and ride a ride or see a sideshow performer.

So, uh, one of the movies at the Coney Island Film Festival, the opening night movie was a documentary, uh, about the, uh, Jim Rose Circus. In which, uh, Zamora, the torture king was a performer, and Zamora the torture king was present at the festival. And, uh, on the opening night as part of the opening night festivities, he took a sharp.

Metal wire and, uh, drove it into his mouth and out below his, uh, out through the bottom of his chin. Uh, because really in, in the tradition of Houdini, he is a mind over physical matter genius. Anyway, I didn't realize he was in the audience for evil sublet, but afterwards, uh, he said that, uh, he said that it was very, very strange in a good way.

And coming from that performer, Uh, I, that was a, that was a bit of, uh, that was a comment that really warmed my heart. How do you do that? How do you put like a blade through your mouth and out your chin? Is there like an area where there's, there's less flesh and less nerves? Uh, you know, you would have to talk to him about the process of doing it and that that would be a great, that would be a great episode would be to, uh, to have him, this is what I wanna know, Alan.

I wanna know. Did, did he walk up to you and you immediately knew who he was by looking at him, or he said to you, you know, uh, hello, Alan. I'm Z Zamora, the torture king. Well, I, I knew who he was. I, I knew who he was because he's famous and I also knew who he was. I, if I had not already known who he was, I had, uh, I had seen the documentary the night before.

Uh, so, uh, I, I did know who he was. Um, but, uh, uh, yes, I was very happy to hear what he had to say. And so Alan, I'm just curious, you worked on the Obama campaign, you worked on several campaigns. I was reading that in 2016 you were in Hillary Clinton's rapid response team. This is, I know this is not about evil sublet, but I'm just curious from your perspective, what do you think went wrong?

Like in the summer of 2016, Hillary Clinton was winning. She had a very visual imagery like, do you want Trump's hands on the red button? And then what went wrong after that? Do you think? All right. Well, everyone has a, everyone has a theory and, uh, I'll tell you that in a race, in a presidential race that comes down to, um, just under 80,000 votes, everyone's theory is correct.

Because that is such a small number of votes that anything, uh, any one difference if you wanna say, uh, you know, if you wanna say, oh, it was the Comey letter. Yes, absolutely. That was enough to swing 80,000 votes. Was it sexism? Absolutely. Sexism played a role. That's enough to swing 80,000 votes. Should, you know, was it, uh, you know, was it, uh, Not enough time spent in a given swing state.

You could, you could second guess, uh, a million things. I think any one person who worked on that campaign, I made videos that were seen by millions of people. Uh, if the videos I made were seen by millions and the vote came down to 80,000, is there something I could have done better? That could have been the different for 80,000 votes.

This gets to actually a problem that, uh, that there's increasing interest in, which is trying to reform the electoral college. We are having ever more close elections, uh, decided by a narrower margin where the actual election isn't very close. Uh, Hillary Clinton won the popular vote by more than 3 million votes, uh, and the, um, the margin of victory.

In thanks to the electoral college for Joe Biden was also very narrow. It was, uh, I believe an even narrower margin of victory, uh, a and yet, uh, it was an even wider mar margin of, uh, of victory in terms of the popular vote. So the problem is that the way the electoral college creates a system now where 80% of the country, our votes don't matter as much as a handful of voters in swing states and.

I realize I've taken us a little bit off topic of No, no. I took us off topic. I, I'm curious. Well, so there is, uh, there's a growing movement for, uh, it would be very difficult to abolish the electoral college because that requires a constitutional amendment. But there is a growing movement for what is called, uh, the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.

And that is an agreement between states. That would award that state's electoral votes. If enough members of the states, if enough states sign on to the compact, they would all agree to elect to, to submit all of their electoral votes to the winner of the national popular vote. And, uh, already, um, uh, there are a lot of states that have already signed on.

If enough states signed on to reach 270 votes, we would never again have a president. Take office without winning the popular vote. As has already happened twice this century and, uh, we would no longer have a situation where, you know, if you're, if you're a Republican in New York, your vote doesn't matter so much.

If you're a Democrat in Alabama, your vote doesn't matter so much. Anyway, I've taken us down a wonky path. Sally has, uh, Sally has a comment. Yes. I'm curious. I have a question. I have a question, Alan. What, what is this pact called? Say it again That people are signing onto states or, uh, the National Popular Vote?

Interstate Compact. Okay. What is the minimum number of states that have to sign on for it to be something that becomes an actual enacted, uh, piece of legislation in this country? It would, it would require a few more states. It, it would require enough states so that their combined vote total would be more than 270 electoral votes.

And, and where are they right now? Uh, it's, it's a little under that, uh, and. I can point you to, if you wanna find out more about this, uh, inequality Media and Robert Reich, uh, uh, with whom I work, have just put out a video on the topic. And so people who wanna learn more about the National national Popular Vote, interstate Compact can check it out there.

But, but Alan, let's say I lived in Wyoming. Yes. And Wyoming was part of this, wouldn't I feel that, oh, my, my vote now really is meaningless. Well, you know, some people are making that argument, but as it stands now, doesn't it make, if this comes into being, doesn't it make everybody's individual vote more meaningful because it will be the popular vote.

That is okay. That's a point. Yes, that is, that is, that is what, um, that is what I would argue. That's what a lot of people who support this argue most, uh, virtually all states, to have a winner take all system with their electoral votes. So if, if you, if you're in a state and you cast your vote for the loser of your state, your vote is effectively thrown out.

Your vote doesn't go into the pool because all of the electors, even, even if it's just by an narrow margin, and as it stands now, as it stands now, the electoral as elector college, but if in fact is enact, if the national popul vote, votes will count. Yes. And it is. I, I mean, at the moment, at the moment, the only presidents this century who have won without winning the popular vote were Republicans.

Uh, so at the moment, At the moment, one could say, oh, well, this, this favors Democrats over Republicans. This favors democracy. It, uh, the, the loser, the person who, the person who didn't. Ideally in a democracy, the person who wins should be the person who got the most votes. And, uh, there may be more people identifying as Democrats.

Now there may be more people identifying as Republicans in the future. W we should. Taking party out of it. We should, if we believe in democracy, we should want the winner of the most votes to be the one who's elected and after. Yeah. Right. And after that election. Can I ask, were you really depressed? I, it, uh, I, you know, I think so.

I've been on, uh, I've been on winning presidential campaigns and I've been on losing presidential campaigns. It feels better to win. But, um, I wasn't depressed for myself, uh, so much. Um, it it, it's painful to put in a lot of work for something and have it not pay off. But, uh, I, you know, I'm in a place of privilege.

I'm, I'm a, uh, college educated, uh, white man. And, um, I was not depressed for myself. I was depressed because, uh, many of the, because. The things that came to pass were the things that we'd predicted. Uh, we'd predicted that, uh, the president would weaponize immigration policy in a way that would tear families apart.

And, um, that is exactly what happened. We, we predicted that the president would appoint judges who would strip away reproductive freedoms, and that is what has happened. And again, that's, that's not something that is going to affect my body. So I am not depressed for myself. I am depressed for the state of rights in, in our country.

Uh, and we also, we also predicted that in at a moment of great national crisis, That president would not be able to rise to the occasion. And the, uh, the sad truth is that, um, uh, no matter who was president, uh, COVID would have had a devastating impact on the country. But we specifically had a president who concealed the dangers that were being made aware that he was being made aware of by his own security team, uh, who, uh, Hampered the ability of public health officials to get the word out about those dangers.

Who, uh, undermined calls for, uh, wearing of masks and social distancing. And, uh, there have been studies that show that, um, A large percentage of the deaths that occurred in 2020 could have been averted, had there been a, uh, a, a strategic response as opposed to an impulsive, uh, ego centered response to the crisis.

So that's the thing that's depressing to me. Not that, not that, uh, you know, not that the work that I did, uh, didn't pay off James.

James? Yes. James Altucher. Yes. Sally's brothers. I always wanted to say that now. Oh, I'm glad you did, because a lot of people come up to me and say, aren't you Sally? Feel Anyway. Um, now do you see, after hearing Alan speak, why, if you had to measure the stress in the room? The first moments that I started shooting my small part in his film, Why I was frightened and nervous because Alan is so aware of everything that's going on and so well spoken and such a high IQ that I just feel like, where's Waldo?

I was just thinking that while he was talking like, oh, this guy really. Not only knows a lot, but is, has, has, the way you said it, Alan was compassionate without being overbearing. It was, it was good. Well, I, I've, I've just had the good, I've just had the good fortune to be in, um, I, I've had the good fortune to be in the room with people who are smarter than I am, uh, at some key moments in history.

And so I, I've just, uh, I'm just sharing what I've, what I've gleaned. But, uh, the, the, Sally, I'm very sorry if at any po moment, uh, you felt intimidated because I have just such deep admiration for your, for your talent. And, and James, I, I wanna say that, uh, Uh, you know, I, I don't wanna reveal the twists that are involved with, uh, with Sally's character, but, uh, I.

Her performance, uh, and the, the surprises that she brings to her, her performance are just, uh, uh, there were, there were moments where I had to bite my hand to not laugh and spoil the, the, the take. And then there were other moments where I was tearing up because of the poignant that, uh, that she brought to the role.

Well, national Treasure and everyone should want to work with her. And I'm just incredibly lucky that, uh, that. That she was a part of our project. Well, well just if we, I'm sorry, James, go ahead. Well, I, I was gonna say just the fact that Sally, that you play someone who lives in a storage locker, that's enough to get me to see the movie because I often thought when I first was in New York City, and it is, so all anybody talks about in New York City, particularly young people, is how am I gonna live here?

Where am I gonna live? What do you know of an apartment? Can I find an apartment? It's impossible to find an apartment. Is there a roommate? Is the area good? Like, my kids are going through this. They lived in the East Village now they're living both living in Brooklyn. And it is hard. I lived in, I lived in the Chelsea Hotel when I first got to New York, and I, but before that I actually, I lived in Astoria a little bit and it is hard and, and there's so much to deal with.

This New York City is a hard place to live when, particularly when you're, when you're young. But Sally, I wanted to ask you too similarly that I asked Oh, go ahead. I just wanted to say, About Alan talking more than once in this interview, so kindly and adoringly of me that the, the who's missing on camera and who's missing being spoken about more is his wife, Jennifer Lee Houston, who is.

Quite a phenomenal woman, and she deserves to be interviewed more than me. She's in almost every shot of this film, and she does a bang up job, and this film was shot, you know, so. Quickly because of budget restraints and she just didn't fail her husband or any of us, and I wish she was here. Alan, can you speak Adoringly about your wife, the way you speak about me, but even more so cause she's Well, and actually, let, let, let me ask, because she's in the trailer by the way.

She's hilarious. Like just her timing everything. But how did you and Jennifer meet? You know, we just, uh, we, there's not a great story. We met at a friend's party. Uh, well, I mean, the great story, we meet everyone at parties. We met, we, yes, I meet every, apparently I meet everyone who's important in my life at parties.

Uh, we met at a, uh, we met at a, a party and it was, uh, uh, it was basically love at first sight. And, uh, I was, uh, I was a real jerk to my oldest friend that night, uh, because right, my, I was at the party. My oldest friend was at the party, someone I've been friends with, uh, since third grade. And, uh, I, I sat down at a, at the dinner table, it was a dinner party.

I sat down at dinner, uh, next to my wife, my future wife, Jen, and my, uh, oldest friend was sitting at the end of the table to my left and I was just so taken with this woman. I just. Turned my back on my friend literally turned my back on my friend and I just, uh, I just talked to, uh, to Jen all night and, and I guess my friend, uh, talked to no one, uh, that night.

Yeah. But your friend knew, you know, the rules of the rules. You, you, you give your boy, uh, a chance there to, to not talk to you if, if he's got something going on, so, well, I think he's the rules. He's, I think he's forgiven me because his wife. Is, uh, is one of the four producers on the film. His wife Beman Master Marino.

So, so I think, and he actually, uh, my friend Mike Voco was, was involved in, uh, in one of the more difficult scenes. So I think he is forgiven me for that, I think since I, since I married the woman that I was, uh, talking to that night. Um, but, but what Sally is saying is true. Jennifer is extraordinary. Uh, this, uh, she, and she does.

Every range of emotion in this movie. She is, her character is put through kind of literal hell. And she is funny. She is poignant. She is driven to tears. She is driven to screams. She is. And she's so strong. Yes. Yes. And, and she's, uh, there's, she's a musical performer. She sings multiple, uh, songs in the movie.

Wow. So it is, Uh, She had in her own right, uh, made a name for herself, uh, as a viral performer, uh, performing well, I guess everything comes back to politics. She did, uh, she did political song parodies, uh, during the Trump presidency that got, uh, many millions of views. And that's what a lot of viewers know her best as.

So well, where did she do though, like on YouTube or TikTok, or? Uh, yeah. On, uh, well, on, uh, Facebook, uh, and, uh, and Twitter. Uh, yes. Uh, so if you, if you, if you look for, uh, things like crime after crime or pathological liar, you'll, uh, you'll, you'll find a, you know, many tens of millions of views videos that she, that she's done.

She is, she is an extraordinary performer. So, so what's next? Does this, like, now that you have won, uh, an award or you're probably gonna be at other film festivals? What, what's next? Do you release this independently? Do you try to sell it to a Netflix? Does a studio pick it up? Like what, what happens next to a movie like this?

We're going to, uh, be playing at a number of festivals. The next one will be the Grossman Fantastic Film Festival in Slovenia, uh, next month. And Laia? Slovenia. Slovenia? Yes. Maror the only city I know of in Slovenia. Uh, no, no, and, and I'm not sure how to pronounce the name of the city where it is, so I am not going to, I'm not going to butcher it.

Uh, so that is the next festival on our agenda. We're gonna play at a number of festivals, uh, and then we will soon be able to make an announcement about, uh, a distribution deal. And the goal is for the film to ultimately be widely available for people to see. And people who follow us, who people who follow evil sublet on social media or go to evil sublet.com will be able to find out, uh, when they can see it.

James? James, you have to ask Alan to tell you about how he got extra funding for the film. I. I, I saw there was kind of like, almost like a Patreon, like Paige, but tell me, Alan, how did you get, how did you get the final funding for the, for the film? We got, we got a, a fair share of the budget from the offer that anyone who donated, uh, over $20 could have their face turned into a ghost in the movie.

Oh, that's great. So that's brilliant. Now, this face, that's an obvious face, but in the movie we might have like, In the shadows, a face that you don't notice, uh, right away. And so we have over 200 hidden ghostly faces in the movie, and I, I'm happy we did this for. Several reasons. There's the logistical reason that it helped us pay for making the movie.

Uh, but also I like that the people who contributed to the movie are literally a part of it, but also it's pretty darn creepy. They're are, uh, uh, you know, when we were, when it was premiering at the Coney Island Film Festival last week, there was one moment where I, I'm sitting near someone and I know that there's been this face in the background the whole time.

And, you know, it's in the middle of the scene and then somebody goes and, and they, and then like, they just noticed that a face was there the whole time. And there's something very disturbing about a face having been there that you, that you didn't notice right away. Wow. I, well, I can't wait to see it.

When do you think I'll be, I, I tried to get a link because, uh, you know, uh, we were doing this podcast. I tried to get to a link to it, but you guys said, no, not available. When can I see this movie? Uh, let's see. You are in, uh, well you're in Atlanta. Hopefully we'll be coming to a, a festival in your neck of the wood soon.

And, uh, then hopefully before too long we'll be able to, uh, make announcements about. Where, when and where people can see it either in theaters or, uh, on streaming services. Uh, I, I can't wait. And it's evil sublet. Alan Piper, Sally's Struthers, uh, I You, you've been winning awards. It's been getting buzz. I really look forward to it.

It sounds like I, I saw, I love the trailer. I love the concept. Having been involved in looking for apartments many, many times for decades in New York City. Sally, I would like to ask one more question just on your, on your career, and this is an odd question, but you have had such a, a storied and again, iconic career, and this is gonna sound like a weird question, but at what point do you think you were the most depressed in your career, and how did you deal with that?

Uh, the most depressed.

Well, I've got to admit that when I was finished filming all in the Family, I did eight seasons, as did Rob Reiner. Our contracts were up. We both chose not to renew. Uh, and then I, in real life, give birth to my daughter and, uh, she was three years old when c B s decided to go ahead and put a Gloria Sitcom on and.

Place it on the same night and the next half hour after Archie Bunker's place, which Carol O'Connor was doing when. When Jean Stapleton had finished her contract and didn't renew, and there was just Carol O'Connor willing to play Archie a little more, and so they moved him from that empty house to the uh, bar and made him the owner of the bar called Archie Bunker's Place.

So they positioned Archie Bunker's place in the first half hour, and then following that on c p s was Gloria. And Gloria was doing very well. But the executives, I call them the Suits a, you know, a bunch of. Business people who get to make artistic decisions, but they graduated from college with business degrees.

They're not artistic people. They're numbers crunchers. And so Carol didn't wanna play Archie anymore. He'd been doing it for 10 or 11 years. He was done. So they literally threw the baby out with the bathwater. They, they said, well, we, we don't care to keep Gloria on the air. Since we don't have Archie Bunker's place to lead in, we won't.

Put it on all by itself to see if it still holds its audience. We're just gonna take Sally off too. And I have to admit that I was terribly depressed about not being given a chance to see if I could fly on my own without the lead in of Archie Bunker's place. That was, that was some bitter pill to swallow.

But as you can see, I'm still here. I'm still working. I never stopped working. Um, how did you bounce back emotionally from, from that? Well, I had a, I had a a, a, a daughter at home, a little tiny girl, and I'd just been through a divorce. We, my husband and I divorced when she was not even one. And, um, so. That occupied all my time and gave me great joy.

I mean, life does always give you the ying with the yang. You just have to wake up and realize it. So that might have been depressing career-wise. But I had wanted to be a mother terribly, and there was my beautiful baby girl, and that brought me great joy. You know you have two girls. Yeah. Well, well, thank you for that answer.

And, and thank you Alan, I, I, I, for, for, for coming on the podcast and Sally for coming on the podcast, an evil sublet. I've never really been a big fan of the horror genre, but I absolutely cannot wait to see this. Given how you guys have been describing it, given what I've read and what I've already seen, I cannot wait to see this evil sublet.

Uh, I hope you get on Amazon or Netflix at least, cuz that's mostly what I watch. I watch Apple Plus also, but, and H B O Max. And all the other streaming services actually. So please get somewhere or be in the movie theaters anywhere. Cuz I wanna see this now. Well, thank you. I don't wanna send it to my daughters too.

Thank you so much. Thank you for, for having us. And, and thank you for those words. Thank you James. Thank you guys. Thank you.