Chris Voss | The How-To of High-Stakes Negotiations: The Secrets of Tactical Empathy

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I first had on Chris Voss in 2016. And this is one of the I've done 1500 podcasts,

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's hard to fall everybody's got such smart things to say, everybody gives such

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: great advice. And, you know, everybody they've made their their on for a reason. This is

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: all about peak performance, how one can be a peak performer. But Chris Voss, this is

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the one of the only podcasts where I've really followed all of his advice. And the reason

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is his first book in May 2016 was called Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: if Your Life Depended on It. Because in many cases people for Chris, people's lives did

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: depend on it. He was the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI. He's negotiated so many life

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and death situations. I've really made great use of his advice to make not only in like

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: big financial decisions, like selling a company, but even in day to day interactions, I've

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: used his advice and it's so valuable. Because he's really been in the trenches of negotiation.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: When lives are at stake, you can't fool around. You can't just like, oh, I'm going to read

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a negotiating book and here's what I'm going to do. He defined negotiation. So now I write

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: his negotiating book, and that's what I do. But once again, he's on this is third time

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: on, there's a documentary coming out, which I highly recommend by my good friend Nick

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Nanton produced the documentary. And Nick even did a documentary about me called Choose

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yourself, which you could find on Amazon. But Tactical Empathy, the documentary about

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Chris Voss, you could find it on Amazon. Is that right Jay? Amazon?

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. Prime.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I admit I got a special link to watch it, but on Amazon Prime, you can watch Tactical

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Empathy produced again by Nick Nanton. And Chris and I, we just, it's as if we never

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: stopped talking. We just continued the conversation about what makes a great negotiator. Trust

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: me, everything in life is a negotiation. You want to improve your negotiation skills. Listen

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to this, take the advice, make your life better. I hardly ever say that at podcasts because

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: who knows? Everybody gives advice. Take cold plunges. I don't know. I tried doing the cold

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: plunges. I can't do it. It's painful. So listen to this. Good luck. Let me know if

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you use these negotiating tactics that he describes in this episode. Watch the documentary

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Tactical Empathy. Most importantly, please subscribe to this podcast. Thank you.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host. This is the James

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Alteger show.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So Nick Nanton, I know him because he did a documentary on me and my book Choose Yourself

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and he works really hard. And now he's done Tactical Empathy with you. And you've had

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: a fascinating life. Like I saw in the documentary, actually, you got a t-shirt that said, I think

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it said live a story.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Live a great story.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Live a great story. Yeah. Maybe we can start with that because you've lived a great story

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're still living it of course. How do you think you've lived a great story?

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I just, I always looked at life as kind of an adventure and a challenge and just

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted it to be an adventure and just pursued sort of one crazy idea out of left field after

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: another, you know, after getting out of small town, Iowa. And it's, it's been, it's been quite

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a ride.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and the documentary describes how you, you know, you started out like police and then FBI

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and part of the thing with getting, impressing the FBI was that you volunteered for a suicide

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: hotline for a while. And you know, that's interesting. I wouldn't think of that as related

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to negotiation, but it's very much about negotiation. Like what was, what was your

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: experience with the suicide hotline?

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was phenomenal. I mean, I think one real big advantage I had when I went there is I

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: went there to learn like the number one problem with keeping those hotlines in business is

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: volunteer burnout. Now funding is close on its heels with number two, but the volunteer

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: burnout is very high because people go there to help. And if you're there to help, um, you're

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: emotionally vulnerable. And a lot of the callers are actually highly manipulative. There's a

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: very significant portion of the callers that just suck the life out of you or just call it to

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: manipulate you.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And what do you mean the manipulative in this sense?

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, um, they have no intention of dealing with their problems. Uh, they are what we call

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: energy vampires. Nobody in their life will talk to them anymore because you're like, Oh my God, my

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: life is so horrible. They just suck the life out of you. And they come to learn that a

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: volunteer in a hotline is supposed to talk to them. So this is, oh, I'll call somebody on the

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: phone whose job it is to listen to me. And since they never have any intention of doing

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: anything, uh, that they'll suck the life out of you. That's, that's one. And then the other

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that's very, um, counterintuitive but is highly, um, difficult to deal with are the sex callers

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they want to have a live person on the phone and they want to manipulate you. And they

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: generally prefer a female. It's something that females had to put up with far more than a man.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I only, I don't know, whole time I was there, I only had one sex caller, but the women get them

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: all the time and they want a woman's calming, soothing voice. And they say, can I talk to you

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: about anything? And then they want to start talking to him about their sexual addictions.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And what they're doing is they're keeping a woman on a phone live talking about sexually related

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: issues while they masturbate and that's victimization. And, and it's just, you know, women

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: don't volunteer on a suicide hotline so they can help a guy masturbate.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God. It's like a weird kind of OnlyFans.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and a weird, yeah, very, very well put. And so that burns a lot of people out too.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What, what, what do you, what's the protocol when you realize someone's doing that? Do you,

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're a woman, you hang up?

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you should just hang up right away. I mean, the minute you sense it, uh, the first

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_02]: thing to do is, um, disrupt their pattern. You shouldn't protest. You, you, you shouldn't

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: say another word. I mean, the thing that's most likely to discourage their behavior is

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: an immediate hang up upon sensing that it's there. And that's a difficult thing to train

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because, you know, uh, a female under, uh, realizes she's being victimized. She's going

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to be angry. She's going to respond in anger. She's going to want to tell him off. There's

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be, um, of feelings driven by anger of wanting to correct them. And none of that

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: is productive because that's more moments of their voice on the phone with this guy.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So the most discouraging thing for them is simply an immediate hang up.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's interesting you put it that way. Like it seems like in every situation,

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it's a suicide hotline, negotiating for hostages, uh, police trying to deescalate

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the situation, the most important thing it seems from, and I'm just trying, you could

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: tell me if I'm correct. I'm trying to learn from the documentary. It seems as you have

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to determine what your goals are, what those goals require you to be and do, and then stick

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to that script. So in this case, your goal is to basically, you know, not, you know,

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: have this guy keep talking about his sexual addictions. And so whether you're angry,

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that has nothing to do with it. You have to either just hang up or be quiet, do anything

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to that's that doesn't keep them talking. That's the goal. So not to keep them talking

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: down that line.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's a goals combined with, you've got to sense their agenda from the very beginning.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they've, they've got a, they've got a journey. They've got a destination in mind,

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: no matter what. And if you are willing to open your eyes to the pattern, the patterns

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: become apparent extremely quickly. So the first issue is to read the situation. And

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: then if they're not going to allow you to obtain your objective, or if you struggling

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to attain your objective as part of their vision, then for, you know, that determines

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not you're simply going to hang up or whether or not you're going to end

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: positively and then withdraw.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So, so, so let me ask you about like a different situation. So let's say I'm an

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: employee and I've worked at a place for a year and I've done, I think a good job and

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: my workload has gotten bigger and now I want a raise. So I go into my boss, I'm asking

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for a raise, but I get the sense that he's just not going to give me a raise.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right. All right. So there's a couple, you got to diagnose the situation. Now

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: employers globally, and I was even made this mistake a couple of times when I was

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a lead investigator in a case and it had a lot of people working for me because

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to, you're going to give your workhorses more work. The people you

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: can count on, the people that you can trust. If you're not, if you don't watch

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself, you're going back to the same person every time because you can count

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: on them. And so the workhorses get more work, not by intentional bad management,

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but by naive and naive management. And I remember doing that on a big case I had

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in New York. You know, we had this thing, we had to get talent, it get done. It was

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: really important. And there was this female investigator named Lou and Lou was

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a star. She got stuff done. She was, she was a workhorse. You could always count

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: on her. And this thing came up, I came to the supervisor, it was important. I said,

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, I'm thinking about we give this to Lou. We know we're going to get it

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: taken care of. And he's like, yeah, okay. And I take it over to Lou and ask her

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to deal with it. She blows up at me. She's like, you're dumping all this stuff on

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: me. She says, look around, look at, look at these people over here. They're not

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: doing anything. Give it to one of them. And I thought, ah, okay. So management

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: can be guilty of that inadvertently. So your diagnosis when you go in for, with

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the boss is, are they overworking me? Cause they don't know any better. And so

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02]: there it's a mistake of the head, not of the heart. Now, um, are they overworking

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: me? Cause they're going to ring every last drop out of me and then they're

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: going to discard me. It's a little more of a heart issue. So you got to know

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which one it is. Is it a mistake of the head or a mistake of the heart? Now,

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: then from the other side, understand. Empathy is about understanding how the

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: other side sees it and recognizing that and factoring it into your thinking.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not agreeing with it. It's not disagreeing with it. It's just taking the

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: reality of what they see in a workforce situation. Nobody walks into the boss's

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: office unless they want something for themselves ever. What does that condition

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the boss to think of his employees as? Selfish. It's a harsh reality of life.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody walks into the boss's office and says, Hey boss, how can I make your life

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: easier? How can I do more while getting paid the same? They're going to walk in

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: with a complaint. I work too hard. I don't get paid enough. This isn't what I

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: expected. Blah, blah, blah. You've got to recognize what employees have

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: conditioned their employers to see them. So you got to factor that in. Now,

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: your stand now, let's talk about salary. Salary is a term of employment.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Salary doesn't pay your, but it doesn't build your career. It pays your bills.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to have a higher salary, you got to be worth more. How do you make

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself worth more? What's most valuable to your employer? First of all,

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: people that want to help everybody. People that want to rise the tides so

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that all ships rise to start with. Now, secondly, how do you accomplish that?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Good friend of mine from high school, Tom McCabe. I told this, I learned this

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: from Tom. One of the most successful guys I know. Great human being, head of an

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: international bank. Tom and I started from the same small town in Iowa with no

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: family connections, no alumni connections, no wealthy families, nothing. Didn't

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: know anybody, didn't have anything to go on but our ability. Tom's head of an

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: international bank. Every job he's ever interviewed for, every annual review, he

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: asks his question, how can I be guaranteed to be involved in projects that

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: are critical to the strategic future of this organization? And if your boss' heart

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is in the right place, and nine times out of ten it is, they go like, wow, you

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: want to make my life better. You want to play in a championship. You want to be

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the starting quarterback in a championship game and you want to know how you could

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: get there. They suddenly see you not as a selfish person but as somebody that's

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: going to make their future better, which is critical to collaboration. What does

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the future look like? And you ain't asking how can I do a better job in my

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: position, which isn't a bad question. You're not asking what you should ask

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: also at the beginning of any job interview, what does it take to be

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: successful here? Not what are you looking for but what does it take to be

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: successful here? You're asking for the biggest success possible. So one or two

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: things happen. You get to play in a big game. You got to want that. You got to

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: want to play in a championship. Not everybody has the appetite for that. A

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: lot of people want to sit back. They want to be C players and they want to get

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: A player salary. You got to perform like an A player to get an A player salary.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to want it. So you're going to get a shot at it or you just designated

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself among the senior levels of your organization as somebody to be

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: mentored and they're going to keep an eye on you. They said, all right, so we

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: don't think Chris is ready for the big game yet but he wants to play there.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see what we can do to make him smarter. Let's see if he takes direction.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's see if he takes initiative within the direction he's been given. It

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: sounds simple but nobody does it.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're saying nobody goes in and says, how can I be a more critical part

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of the strategic goals of this organization?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody knows to do that. I didn't know until Tom told me about it. I'm staying

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: back there. I'm going like, Jesus, Tom. Dude, you're one of the most successful

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: businessmen internationally that there is. You're the head of an international

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: bank. How the hell do you and I start in small town Iowa? I went to a more

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: prestigious school than you did. I went to Iowa State. It's a decent-sized

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: state school. It's on a map. He goes to this podunk school in northern Missouri

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that nobody ever heard of. And now you are there, brother.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're sitting around talking about it. A few years ago when I was teaching

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: at USC, we're having candid conversations about how did our journey go? How did

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: we get here? What do we do? And he's like, this is what I've always done.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: It's made all the difference in the world. So example of the reaction in real

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: life to that. I'm doing a negotiation training for sales complement of a large

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: company. We're doing it online on Zoom in a pandemic. CEO is there and his

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: wholesale staff. I do the presentation on negotiation, the keynote. I talk

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: them through the skills. And we do a Q&A. And in front of the CEO, one of the

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: salespeople says, how do I get a higher salary out of this guy? And you can just

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: feel everybody on the Zoom, hold their breath. What is he going to say?

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: How's the boss going to react? And I lay that question out. And before anybody

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: has a chance to react, the CEO says, I wish everybody here would walk into my

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: office and say that. Does he really wish that? Yeah, because he wants people

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to want to play in a big game. But the guy wasn't saying I wanted to be a part

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of the big game. The guy was just saying I want more money. Yeah, but he's

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: first of all, his heart's in the right place and him wanting more money.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing wrong with that. What the problem is, is he not rewarding

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: people appropriately, which is then the other possible outcome. You get invited

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to play in a big game. You talk about it. You negotiate your future. You

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiate your future success. You build your resume over the coming year in

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: a company in a way that nobody else has. What happens if at the end of the

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: year, they go like, eh, we don't have the budget for it? What you've done is

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you've given yourself a resume. You found out that you got a bad partner,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: like a bad spouse, like a bad social partner who's abusing you, taking

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: advantage of you. But now when you get ready to walk, your resume is

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: substantially more marketable than it was a year earlier. And if they're not

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: going to pay you, you don't belong there anyway because they are doomed and

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you need to get out of there. Any business relationship like any personal

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship, when the other side is victimizing you, your job is to hit

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the door just to get out.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is not necessarily advice for someone who's just walking in and

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: asking for a raise. This is how to kind of set the stage in advance so that

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you could then have that negotiation and you've primed it just correctly.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's for both. It's for both. And that's why Tom was telling me,

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: opening interview, there's a couple of other questions in the opening

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: interview. And what does it take to be successful here is a critical one,

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: which I remember when I was teaching at Georgetown, I'm having a conversation

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: with people in the career development, you know, whatever office they have

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that advises students how to get jobs. And I lay that question out and

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: woman in there says, yeah, we have mass that we tell them, what are you

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for in a candidate? And I said, no, you know, those aren't the

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: same questions. Those are vastly different questions. What are you

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for in a candidate is a question everybody's taught to ask, which

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: makes you sound like everybody else.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And also it sounds like you're going to then be a chameleon and act

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: like what their answer is.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's an authenticity issue there.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of my students that was taught to ask, what does it take to be

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: successful here? You're in front of an interview panel. Understand

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: what that panel is as the committee. And their job description is like

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: a dating description. It's probably not exactly accurate to what they're

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for. So they got people on a panel and there's somebody in a

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: panel that does not want to be there. So why is that person on the

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: panel? Because that person is extremely successful in a business and

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: is tired of the revolving door candidates that are not what they say

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: they are. And he's there, he or she is there studying. So the student

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of mine says, what does it take to be successful here? And the silent

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: person on the panel leaned forward and said, no one ever asked us that

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and laid it out. She ends up getting a job later on and the other people

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: on the interview panel says, that's the first time he ever spoke. And

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: he's on the panel because everybody here respects him and he knows

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: what he's doing.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so one thing that's kind of common among this is you mentioned the

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: word disrupt. It's almost like you have to do some sort of pattern

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: disrupt in the way you're talking to people. You said, oh, what does it

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: take to be a success? What are you looking for in a candidate? Everyone

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: asks that. You have to ask the questions that nobody is asking. How do

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you build that skill of asking or talking in a way that nobody else is?

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's apply this actually to hostage negotiation. How does this apply

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to what you did for the FBI, which is hostage negotiations?

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, it's great. Because you're talking about human behavior

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: regardless. What a lot of people don't realize is that the way human

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: beings make decisions do not change based on circumstances. It's still

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: a human being and a human being makes decisions in basic ways. It doesn't

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: change. The head of Al-Qaeda makes decisions based on how humans make

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: decisions. The head of IBM makes decisions on how humans make decisions.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Circumstances do not change the dynamics. So first of all, what you

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: have to do is you have to actually listen to the answers. Like even if

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you ask the same question everybody else asks, nobody listens to the

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: answers. Everybody's got a list of open-ended questions. Ask a question,

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: person answers, move on to the next question, giving no indication

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: whatsoever that you're listening. So the minute you start listening,

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you are one in 20 and maybe your odds are even better than that

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: because nobody listens. Everybody's got a list of questions. They've

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: been taught, ask the questions, show interest by asking these questions

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and make sure you ask all of them. So the minute you start demonstrating,

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: not just listening but demonstrating that you're listening by

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: feeding back the answer, by summarizing, by paraphrasing, by making

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the other person feel heard, there's a magic spell called

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: neuroscience and neurochemicals that instantly begin to be cast which

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: changes the other side's perspective against their will because it's a

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: neurochemical response. And that's how you distinguish yourself.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You could ask a question, what are you looking for in a candidate?

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They answer and then you say, well I have this, I have this, I have this,

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I have this, showing no real indication that you heard them by saying,

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: all right, so it sounds like this is important to you. Let me summarize

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: what you just said.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And tying in the neuroscience aspect, you're not really triggering any

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: neurochemicals when you just list qualities about yourself.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not triggering any neurochemicals on their side.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So neurochemicals are triggered, let's say, when you give status or remove

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: status and those are two situations I could think of.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing is when you can, well those are the main things I can

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: think of that would trigger kind of let's say dopamine or serotonin

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is securing status as kind of serotonin, dangling higher status in front

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of them is the dopamine. So what are ways you can kind of trigger that?

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the neuroscience of this?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a great question because you just wrote the most commonly

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: things that are weaponized against you. The whole phrase of asking for help.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I need your help. Well, that's about theoretically triggering

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: status on the other side, but it's used by the people that are

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: victimizing me on a regular basis that as soon as somebody tells me

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they need my help, I turn around and walk away.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you get like what's that? What's wrong with that?

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: As opposed to saying, can I ask you for advice? Which seems a little softer.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well because the problem is the manipulative people caught on

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to that really fast and I've been conned, I've been bamboozled

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: by that 50 times already. So you may be genuine, but the bamboozlers

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: led me down a garden path where, oh, you didn't want my advice.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You wanted to trick me into thinking that you like me so that you could

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: sell me something that I don't need.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So when we first started working on the book, Never Split the Difference,

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: doing it with Tal Roz. Tal is a genius. I don't know if you know Tal

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: personally, great guy, like the best business book writer on planet earth.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Like everything he touches is readable, actionable, and either

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: New York Times or Wall Street Journal bestseller.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a great book, Never Split the Difference.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I forget what year it was, you came on the podcast to promote that book

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was such a great episode.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, no thanks. So early on, triggering the that's right moment

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: is us, you're not after yes, you're after that's right.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're talking about with Tal, this is back in 2014,

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and there really isn't much neuroscience information.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Tal says, I think when you get somebody to say that's right, he says,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you triggered a subtle epiphany.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, oh, let me do some research on epiphany.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when you triggered an epiphany in somebody,

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you get serotonin, which you mentioned before, but you also get oxytocin.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And oxytocin is a bonding drug.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Additionally, I've since learned by listening to my friend Andrew Huberman's

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast on one of his podcasts on relationships, which of course

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to talk about oxytocin. He says that oxytocin inclines you

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to be more honest. So when you trigger an epiphany in somebody

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: by being the feeling of being heard, they get a dose of oxytocin,

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: which bonds them to you, makes them more honest with you.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They get the serotonin, which is a drug of satisfaction,

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: which makes them less demanding and want less.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the feeling of being heard bonds them to you,

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: makes them more honest and makes them less demanding.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are pretty good head starts.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So, okay. So let's start with oxytocin then.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I want to get back to the status, which is more dopamine and serotonin.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask a question. So let's say I was talking to someone

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: who had taken hostages. I'm trying to get them to, you know,

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I could say what you just said actually, which is,

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: listen, buddy, we all want to be heard.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm here for you to say whatever you want to say.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So using the word we, does that kind of trigger the oxytocin?

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, no, it does not. It doesn't.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people want it to, it's well-intentioned.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But we is generally a disguise.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a manipulative pronoun.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: How people use pronouns are great tells.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's that in particular, you know,

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: faux empathy, fake empathy is used a lot of time.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I won't say to you, we all want to be heard.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I might say, look, you're doing this for a reason.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You feel like you've never been heard.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You feel victimized by whomever it might be.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You feel like you're standing up for the downtrodden,

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the people who have had their rights denied to them,

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: people who have been crushed by life circumstances,

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: people that have been crushed by the colonial power

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that's currently occupying your country,

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: stopping you from having a better life for your children,

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: stopping you from worshiping your religion the way you want to.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's how they feel.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's our demonstration of understanding.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not saying I understand, we all want to be understood.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The demonstration of understanding is actually articulating what they think.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this will kind of create that bonding effect,

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that oxytocin boost for both sides?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like every, to their side.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're trying to give them a hit of oxytocin.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why I made a point of saying it's a one-way bond.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They're bonding to you.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why constantly in hostage negotiations,

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: SWAT guys and commanders are always scared the negotiators are bonding with the bad guy

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because they hear the bad guy bonding to the negotiator.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're afraid that it's a two-way bond.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And the negotiators are always like, what are you talking about?

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to get this guy out, yeah, but if we've got to line him up for a shot,

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that's my job too.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to save this guy's life at the risk of my ego or a hostage's life

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because he likes me.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That'd make me like him.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And really before the understanding in early hostage negotiation days,

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the Stockholm syndrome, if you will.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody had any understanding of the neurochemicals.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: They just knew the bad guys were bonding to the good guys in ways.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: They figured like, well, last time somebody bonded with me,

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we were buddies for the rest of our lives.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So we must be losing a negotiator's perspective.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And negotiators have always been confused by like, no, what are you talking about?

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing my job here.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So what's another example where kind of you set the bonding,

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you said that you triggered that oxytocin.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So now, like you say, they're more inclined to tell the truth.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They're more inclined to deal with you.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They feel closer to you.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: When I was in FBI New York, I was on a joint terrorist task force.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have an investigation in civilian court over terrorists.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The stuff that the Bush administration said,

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: we got to do it in Guantanamo Bay military bays,

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: our military courts, because it's going to be the end of the world.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we had a terrorist prosecution in the Southern District of Manhattan.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't the end of the world.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We got a legitimate Muslim cleric on trial for crime.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And we've got Arab Muslims.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're from the Middle East.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They grew up in the Middle East.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They moved to the U.S. They're Muslims.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: They're sending money back to their family.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And we get them testifying voluntarily in open court.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: How do we do that?

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I would sit down with them and I would say,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you believe that for the last 200 years,

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: there's been a succession of American governments

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that have all been anti-Islamic.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I wouldn't shut up.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't fight the First Amendment.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't explain, wouldn't deny nothing.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd just shut up.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'd look at them and they'd go like, yeah.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask you a question?

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: What if their first response is,

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because again, maybe they've had bad people talking to them before,

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or they're kind of like all been playing this out in their heads beforehand.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: What if their first response is, you don't know what I believe?

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, then they're going to correct me.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're going to draw even closer to me

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: because that gives them the status that you were talking about earlier.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If you correct, you get status.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So what would you say to get them to correct you

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: as opposed to just being shelled up?

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I would say, you know,

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to throw out what I think their beliefs are.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not fake or inauthentic on my part

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because I never said that I shared that belief.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I agreed or I disagreed.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, look, this is how you see this.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: This is what you believe.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they're also used to the argument, following it.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is why that's not true.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't get that from me.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reaction that I just showed you

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: where they're kind of blinking,

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: they're kind of turning around.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the neurochemicals hitting their brain

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: where the shift is going on in front of your eyes.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And the mere fact that I would take a shot

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: at what they believe and not argue it

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: to them is delightful.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was the truth.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I got no problem with saying to you what you believe

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: because I'm not judging it.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not accepting it or rejecting it.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm saying, look, you're a human being

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and here's what you see, and I'm not afraid of it.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then what's next after that?

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So now you say this, but now you want to,

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: again, from a neuroscience point of view,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: what's your next agenda on your agenda?

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what I've known, I've cleared their head

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm looking for one or two moments.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, when you approach somebody like this

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and they don't say anything,

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: what that means is you're on the right track

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's more there that they would love to get out.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They just don't trust you yet.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So lack of reaction is actually a very good sign.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And knowing that that's what that reaction means,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: then I'll say, and I probably just scratched the surface

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's the dynamic that's being indicated to me.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There's probably a lot more there

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that I don't even know

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's the dynamic

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're indicating to me in a moment.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: If I've hit it enough,

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to say, you know, yeah,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you want?

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But now they're open to finding out what I want

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: because they've signaled to me they're ready to hear it.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I will slowly start to lay out

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think the next steps are,

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, what I'm dealing with.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And in this case, I might say something like,

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: well, my problem is

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that we got this guy under arrest

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're prosecuting him for illegitimate crimes.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And my problem is, I think

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: there's some information you might have

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: which would shed light on the whole situation

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because when you start asking for somebody,

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: when you start asking for help,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: essentially I'm asking for help,

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're used to

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you trying to make it a shared problem.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We have this problem.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And the first time you go with this we stuff,

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: their initial reaction is going to be

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that ain't my problem, that's your problem, pal.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I like how you say I have a problem

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because after you've kind of built a little bit of a bond,

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you say I have a problem

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: right when they're a little bit more primed

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to maybe listen to what your problem is.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're listening to it

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and they don't feel you

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to shift it to their responsibility

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: in any way, shape or form

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: which preserves their autonomy.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Autonomy is a human existence issue.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Right after you survive,

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the very next thing is are you free?

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're a human being

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in the existence of mankind

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: or civilization that was satisfied in slavery.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So nobody, autonomy is just on a heels,

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: if you will, on Maslow's hierarchy

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: after staying alive.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you don't try to take away their autonomy,

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: they're more open to it.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm saying this is my problem.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Now effectively,

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: you're communicating that you're hoping for their help

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're not putting them in a corner

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: by actually asking for it.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So again, you preserve their autonomy

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: by giving them the option

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to weigh in or not.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, so it's your problem

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: since that's got nothing to do with me.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm safe asking you what it is.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we're going to proceed

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: very slowly, very collaboratively.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you present the problem.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you, you know,

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: again, your goal is to make them feel

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like the sort of person

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: who is going to help you with this problem.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, the goal is,

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: my goal is really

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to make them feel like I'm

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: respectful and collaborative

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and that I'm not trying

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to corner them.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not interfering with their autonomy

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: in any way.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's your highest chance of success.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a guarantee of success,

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but what you need is long-term collaboration.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I could manipulate you,

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you know,

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's a whole

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: theory of interrogation

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that's largely been launched

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_02]: by CIA interrogators

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and unfortunately some law enforcement

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: people have bought into it.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's called eliciting information.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And what it is,

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: is trying to get the person

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you're talking to focused on a short term,

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: make them think that you're friends

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and befriend them

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and get them focused on a short term

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and get them to say stuff to you

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that's going to hurt them long-term.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And what that is,

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is a guarantee of the loss of the relationship.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very much against eliciting information

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: because by definition it's deception

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: from the beginning.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And it works really good short term

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and it just has bad long-term consequences.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the rapport-based interviews,

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the empathy-based,

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: tactical empathy-based,

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: business, personal, professional life,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't matter.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But won't the eliciting information technique

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: look the same in the beginning?

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you're going to try to bond

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you're going to try to give respect

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you're going to try to offer,

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: dangle some incentive I guess?

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: In a lot of ways it does.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the key issues there

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and the difference is

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm never going to dangle an incentive.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm never going to try to...

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to feel

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'm collaborative

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and that you can trust me.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm never going to act like I'm your friend

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'm going to want you to trust me.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, those are two different things.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I want you to testify

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: or I want to arrest you.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If I want to arrest you

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm acting like I'm your friend

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and pretend like nothing bad

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to happen to you,

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to protect you from harm

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: when in fact I plan on putting you in jail.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's deception by omission

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and I am not into deception by omission.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you express...

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say you've expressed you have this problem

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then they say,

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: look, I'm not willing to help you.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you then...

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you switch tone?

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you say,

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: well, look, I'm going to have to arrest you

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't help me?

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Like how do you say that?

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you talk about two different guys.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I talking to a suspect

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: or am I talking to a witness?

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say a suspect.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you go ahead.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, a suspect by and large

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: if I'm interviewing a suspect,

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the information I'm gathering

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: from the interview,

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I got an ongoing investigation

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm trying to get a feel for you

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm not planning on arresting you today anyway.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to see

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: what kind of information I can get out of you

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and then let you go.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you're under arrest

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and I have said this to terrorists,

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I already got you.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to rely on

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the information from you

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to secure whether or not

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to convict you.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm going to give you a shot

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: of talking to you,

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe you want to trade your way out of this.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: This is cool.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And this exactly happened

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: in a terrorist case,

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: the prosecution we had in the Southern District.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there is a 1990s,

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: right after the first Trade Center bombing,

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: second terrorist cell is going to blow up

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: four locations in New York City simultaneously.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm one of the lead case agents.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: When we lock all these guys up,

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the instigator, the organizer,

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is my guy.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I get to put handcuffs on him.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking to him.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We lock these guys up.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about 1.30 in the morning.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We're heading for the office.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Courts don't open until 9 o'clock

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02]: the following morning.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We got to house them in the office overnight.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the back of the car

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: sitting next to this guy.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I go like, look, I got you.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to interrogate you.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't need you to talk.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got to kill about eight hours

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: before the courts are open.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I am not going to interrogate you.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got you.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we talk at all,

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not to trick you.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you if you need to get a drink of water.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you if you need to go to the bathroom.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no interrogation.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's in your best interest

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to not say anything to me at all.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got you.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We're just going to take it easy.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to tell you a couple jokes.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to have a few laughs.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to get arraigned in the morning.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You're probably going to get released on bond.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're not, you're going to be remanded.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to get an attorney.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But relax because I'm not going to interrogate you.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The rest of the night went down exactly like that.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We kept him in the office.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We kept him as comfortable as we could.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Stood up in front of the judge the following morning.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: He was remanded in custody, MCC.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: A year later,

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: he decides to cooperate.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Reaches out for the Southern District of New York

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and initially says,

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to cooperate with you guys,

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the prosecutors,

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: federal United States attorneys,

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Southern District of New York,

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but don't tell the FBI.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And he goes, we can't do that.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We got to tell the FBI.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They got to be involved.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, okay, I'll talk to Chris.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And he wouldn't talk to anybody other than me

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because I treated him with such respect earlier.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I had him under arrest.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't going to interrogate him

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to entertain me.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I treat everybody I ever locked up with respect.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they decide they want to cooperate,

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: chances are they're going to ask for me.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And just as an aside,

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: do you think there's a lot of

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: terrorist activities that the FBI stopped

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that we have no clue about?

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, without question.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what would have happened

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: if there was no FBI, for instance?

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what would have happened in New York City?

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say post 9-11.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like they were after us

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: all over North America.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was actually very frustrating

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: at that point in time

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: at post 9-11

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because we went into strict deterrence

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: like which means

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: as soon as you find out

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a plot is brewing,

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to interdict it

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and not lock people up.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just going to disrupt it

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: or maybe just lock a couple of them up

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and a whole bunch of them

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to get away.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: What you're doing by interdicting

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: without arresting or interdicting early

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is educating them on how you found them.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And we went into this complete

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: shield defense for good reasons.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But that I know

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: of, we probably interdicted

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_02]: 20 more terrorist attacks

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in the first couple of months,

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: 18 months, two years.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You disrupt the organization,

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: you educate them,

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you move them on,

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: which is the problem with

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: interdiction, extreme interdiction.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's scary to let an investigation

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: play out.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The one where we locked these guys up

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: with the four bombing plots,

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: they had actually been targeting

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and we were aware of it

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: probably for about two and a half,

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: three months

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: before we locked them all up.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't tell,

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, the Federal Building in New York,

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: FBI is not the only agency there.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't tell any of the other agencies.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember the senior manager

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: when he had to go to the other

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: agencies in the building and say,

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, by the way,

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: those guys we just locked up last night,

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: they've been planning on blowing up

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the building for the last three months.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know,

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: we were on top of them

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and we locked them all up.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we took out several cells

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of three guys when we did that

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and we set them back for years.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm glad you did.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I lived across the street from that building.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So you did a good job, soldier.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for your service.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But what's the worst thing

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that you think would have happened?

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything like

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: on the scale of 9-11

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that was stopped,

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that you could have done better?

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know,

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: there was stuff on that scale

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: both before and after.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right after the first

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: World Trade Center bombing,

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the instigator was Ramsey Yusuf,

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: who is the actual nephew

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the guy who organized 9-11.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He's still in Guantanamo as we speak.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: There was some news about it recently.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: The Justice Department,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they wanted to cut some sort of

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: deal and the Attorney General

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: threw the deal out the window.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But anyway,

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: so I mean, these are the links

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: between the terrorists.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: His nephew did the 93 bombing

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: on the Trade Center.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, he managed to get away

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and get in, you know,

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: as we would say, get into the wind

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and then get locked up for several years.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: He had plotted to blow up

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_02]: 12 airliners simultaneously

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: over the Pacific Ocean

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_02]: while in a few years that he was on a run,

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_02]: two investigators

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: from New York Joint Terrorist Task Force,

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Frank Pellegrino and Matt Pescear

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: were hot on Ramsey's trail

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: for several years.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And Frank and Matt

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: uncovered the plot to blow up

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the 12 airliners

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: based out of Manila.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And Frank and Matt's pursuit

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: of Ramsey disrupted that

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and Ramsey ultimately got locked up

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: in Pakistan

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: while he was running for Frank.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah,

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: there was plenty of stuff

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that was interdicted along the way

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: by FBI agents

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that were just bloodhounds.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't giving up Frank.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, why do you think

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_01]: nothing has happened

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: basically since 9-11?

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, is it that you're that good?

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the FBI and the CIA

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on are that good?

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Or is there some level

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of incompetence on the other side?

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's a really

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_02]: legitimate question.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I'm listening to Elon Musk

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02]: talk about something on another podcast

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the other day and he's talking about

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the tides of history

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and the captains of the ship

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's both factors.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, what are the tides of histories

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and how competent are the captains

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_02]: of the ship?

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And then how much luck is involved?

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know,

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: shortly after,

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: not terribly long after 9-11,

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, we get into the war in Iraq

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and that turns into one of the biggest

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: wars of the century.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And that brings up

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_02]: al-Qaeda in Iraq.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, al-Qaeda then

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_02]: immediately starts going into

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the kidnap for murder,

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: public murder and execution business

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: through most of 2004.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was involved in trying to

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: interdict and dissuade that

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and they ultimately got out of that

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: business based on how bad we made

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: them look.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So their business evolved,

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: if you will,

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: through,

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, they were getting all the PR

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that they needed for a while

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: out of Baghdad by murdering people

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: on camera and putting it out

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: on Al Jazeera.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they got out of that business,

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: they found out how lucrative

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: kidnapping was and they're still doing

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it in Africa.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They're still funding global operations

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: from al-Qaeda by the, you know,

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: kidnap for ransom because they made

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of money in Baghdad.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, then the organization

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that did Sevisis were the

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: lieutenants of al-Qaeda

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in Baghdad 10 years earlier.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's an evolution of

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02]: organizations and there's the

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: tides of history.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And those of us that are,

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, we're not the captains

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of the ship but maybe we're the

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: gunners.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We're doing the best we can

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and trying to keep up as best we

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_02]: can.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, again, back to

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiation, you know, what are

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: some kind of tools of the trade

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that you felt were maybe they're

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: tech, maybe they could be bluntly

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: called techniques but what are

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like some go-to techniques that

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you knew you could rely on?

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the nuts thing is,

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, this thing that we call

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: tactical empathy, the demonstration

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of understanding, like people are

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: not ready for that.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it doesn't matter who you

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: are, you aren't ready for it.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not used to being listened

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_02]: to, you're used to being argued

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: with, used to being either argued

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: with or followed.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But and followers don't listen

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02]: either, you know, they're drones.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But for somebody to actually

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: listen to you without arguing with

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you, like that's astonishing,

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that's refreshing, it doesn't

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: matter who you are.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I did it in kidnap

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiations because it would catch

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the other side so off guard.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they never, they were

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: argued, they were bargained with,

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, they were argued with.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Nobody ever actually listened to

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: them and fed it back to them.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And these, you know, this

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: oxytocin, serotonin thing, like

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not used to that.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is wiring the people

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: are born with, you know, there's

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: some interesting conversations

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: going on now about the difference

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: between feelings and emotions and

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: one set is something you're born

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: with and the other set is

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: something you learn through

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: conditioning.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: argument is that you're born

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: with the feelings of anger,

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_02]: sadness, enjoyment.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's five or six of

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: them. You're born with them.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's how you're wired just because

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you were born and the rest of them

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: evolved based on the way your life

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: evolves.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the detachment syndrome

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is because you weren't held enough

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: in the first year of your life,

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_02]: whether you were an orphan or

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: whether your family just didn't

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_02]: hold you.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's a conditioned

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: thing.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It's argued that many sociopaths

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02]: become sociopaths because they're

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: conditioned that there are no rules

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: by inconsistent discipline by their

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: parents.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a conditioned thing.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't change that you

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: were born with certain

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: neurochemicals in a limbic system

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're human.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And tactical empathy is about

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02]: let's confine ourselves to the

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: fact that you were born with a

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: limbic system and in broad terms

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to function in certain

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: ways.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And if I can trigger your

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: oxytocin, especially if you're

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: used to being argued with, you're

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be drawn to me.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not going to know why and

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not even going to know it's

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_02]: happening and it's going to change

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: things.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's literally a magic spell.

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like, you know, Dumbledore

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02]: from Harry Potter.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not going to know what

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_02]: happened.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So like in the kidnapping case, a

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: person has, the other side has a

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: specific agenda.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They want money.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And they know you've got money,

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: right?

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They kidnap someone who they've

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: researched.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They know the other side has money.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They haven't researched them.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to use the

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiation process to figure out

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: what they can get.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That's their research.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: There's going to be a certain set

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of parameters they're going to go

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: with to begin with.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like for the longest time in Haiti,

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Haiti's model was carjack a car

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: with more than one person in it.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: If they're in a car in Haiti, they

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_02]: at least have money for gas.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And Haiti being so

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: ridiculously poor, they have

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: assets.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Now it's your job because they were

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: in a car, it's a prequalifier.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It's your job in a negotiation to

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_02]: figure out how many assets they

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: have.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then what kidnappers globally

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_02]: get really good at is figuring out

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: how much money you have.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you could ask for a million

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_02]: dollars, but if they only got

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02]: $10,000, you ain't getting a

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: million.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So your job in a negotiation is

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_02]: figure out do they have $10,000 or

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: do they have a million?

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so how do you do that?

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, then the whole bargaining

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: process, like how quickly you're

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: going to give in.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a methodology.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the Ackerman model.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Mike Ackerman, former CIA

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: guy, started a KNR,

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Kidnapping Ransom Consulting

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Company.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I learned the Ackerman model early

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02]: on.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I told this Ackerman, I ultimately

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: meet Mike and I'm like, hey, Mike,

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I heard you thought this up.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I give attribution, just want to

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: know if it's true.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He's like, yeah, yeah.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've vetted it through your

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: buddies at Harvard and your

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: friends at Harvard told me this

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_02]: model work under any

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: circumstances.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It works because it's a good

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: bargaining model.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I'm going to do in

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Ackerman is make you feel like

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you got our last dime.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a very specific

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_02]: methodology if you get into hard

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_02]: bargaining.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I'm going to try to head it

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02]: off before we get there.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to use empathy and

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to catch you off guard

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm going to use deference

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's going to catch you

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: off guard.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not used to being deferred

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not used to me being a

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: methodology that exhausts you.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Used to me arguing.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_02]: People get energy from arguing.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Anger gives you energy.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going there.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to use anger to give

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you energy.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Empathy is going to suck the life

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: out of you.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's say these techniques

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: are not working somehow.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I remember in

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Never Split the Difference

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: doing things like, well,

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: is there someone I can talk to

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_01]: who can make a decision about

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: this?

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you kind of reduce their

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_01]: status a little bit.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm going to be very

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: cautious about their status.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So, and empathy is a

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: diagnostic.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what a lot of people

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: don't realize.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's designed as a

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: rapport building and an

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: information gathering process.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to realize there's

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of information I don't

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_02]: have and what's going to be my

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: best source.

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: The person I'm talking to on the

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: other side.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm engaging to fuel you out.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to make sure that

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_02]: every one of your responses

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_02]: tells me more about you and your

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: situation.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_02]: For a long time, we thought

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: about drawing a direct

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: correlation to the skills and

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_02]: sonar because sonar is about

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_02]: bouncing sound off the other

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: side and then reading how the

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: sound comes back to you.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the communication, the

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: verbal communication or however

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: we communicate, we're going to

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: read how it comes back to us to

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: give us a clearer picture of

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: what the other side, what they're

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_02]: looking at, what their timeline

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody has a timeline.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Period.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter who you are.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter what your

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_02]: circumstances are.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You have a timeline.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I need to know is what

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that timeline is.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that, what's your

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: effort timeline, what's your

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional timeline, what's your

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional budget, if you will.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I'm going to try to do

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: is I'm going to try to run your

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional budget out sooner on

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: your timeline so we get to an

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome positive faster than you

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_02]: originally planned because you

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: spent your emotional budget.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do like, like, so

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional timeline, meaning

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: they're just going to be sick of

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to you after a certain

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: amount of time or?

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they're going to be

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_01]: exhausted by the process, not

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily sick of talking to

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you because that's slightly

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_02]: different feeling, but they're

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be exhausted by the

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_02]: process.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you're going to you're

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: going to have a pretty good feel

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_02]: of their timeline in advance and

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to be based on a local

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02]: environment like in Haiti.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's still a case.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's short term criminal

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior and they're not

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02]: fundamentalists of any religion.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So what does that mean?

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_02]: The stupid thing that means is

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they probably want to chill on a

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_02]: weekend. There's pretty good

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_02]: chance you want to party on

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Saturday night.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're going to settle on

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Friday's early Saturday.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You're never settling on Monday,

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Tuesday or Wednesday.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just not going to happen.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got to understand their

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_02]: local timelines based on what

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_02]: their their their culture is,

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_02]: their atmosphere, it's their

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_02]: environment.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's humans within the

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_02]: environment.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, it used to be Columbia

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_02]: in South America.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The FARC, they did so many

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: kidnappings.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They had this huge infrastructure

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_02]: built up.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The last case that I worked that

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_02]: resolved after I left the bureau,

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_02]: there were hostages that were held

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_02]: down there for six years.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, you got to

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02]: understand what's the

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: infrastructure of the people on

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the other side.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The Columbia, the FARC, the ELN,

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they've been in business for a

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_02]: long time.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_02]: They got they got a huge

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_02]: infrastructure in the mountains.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Haiti kidnapping gangs.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_02]: These dudes live in day to day.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have a robust

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_02]: infrastructure.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so how do you reduce their

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional bandwidth?

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you kind of wear

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_01]: them out emotionally?

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, when they're

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: going to settle, when they're not,

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to know how they're

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: engaged.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they are they are their

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_02]: own timeline?

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if you don't pay us by 12

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: noon tomorrow, the hostage is dead.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's pretty specific.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_02]: On a Monday.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02]: If we don't get our money, we're

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: going to kill them.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: They've given you no timeline.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They just make a noise.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to see how scared you

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: are, how much money you're going

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: to throw on the table.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What they would do in Haiti on a

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: regular basis or any other

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_02]: country that's into short-term

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: criminal kidnapping.

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You pay them what they want right

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: up front and their response is,

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: oh, you misunderstood.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a down payment.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So you can't pay them what they

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_02]: ask.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if if if if you're

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_02]: selling a car, James, you're

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_02]: selling your car in the U.S.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You want five thousand dollars for

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: your car.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Dude walks up, takes one look at

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: it, says, you got it.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's five thousand on the spot.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Brought cash with me.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all yours.

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Your reaction is like, oh, man,

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I should ask for more.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Now that dude is standing right

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_02]: there with you in the United

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: States.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You got some obligation.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You're probably going to hand a

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: car over.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Kidnappers, you're separated by

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_02]: several hundred miles at least.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You give them what they want.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: They get time to change their

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: mind.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not accountable.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, that was too easy.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We're just getting started.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Plus, it's Monday.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: You already gave me my party

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: money for the weekend.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We can hold out for two weeks

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of five days because

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: we're funded now.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So you got to you got to make

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: them feel.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They got the best deal they

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: could, just like when you're

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: selling your car at that same

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: dude, you're selling your car for

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: five thousand.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: A guy comes up to you like, oh,

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: man.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, what are you

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: willing to risk, though?

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's say, you know, you're

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: not sure if they're going to cut

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: off an ear or something to prove

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're for real.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's how do you balance

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the risks in these types of

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiations?

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Plus, you're going to get

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: information on the dynamic of the

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: industry before you walk in the

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: door.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're going to find out

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: from the State Department, like

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: every industry has a timeline.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Every country is different.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to find out from previous

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: cases what they're looking at,

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: what it's probably going to be.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: In a criminal case without a

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: robust infrastructure, it's

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: short term.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always short term.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Always.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're always looking to

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: chill on a weekend.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And so then you got a couple of

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: other questions.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: What's going on?

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a kidnapping gang in

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Mexico on a regular basis.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: They cut off the finger of every

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_02]: person they kidnapped.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Every single person they

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: kidnapped, they got ransomed out.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But every time, it was their

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: style.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It was their MO.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: They chopped the finger off

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody they ever kidnapped.

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so victims like, my family

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to pay.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: My family is going to pay.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't need to cut my finger

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: off.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's been reported to me, the

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: guy holding them said, yeah, we

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: cut everybody's finger off.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a certain amount of

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: minimal amount of research.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then as soon as they start

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: communicating with you, it's

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_02]: really specificity and

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding what's vague and

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: what's specific and the

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: difference.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And the more, if they say, all

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: right, so if you don't pay the

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: ransom, your son's going to die.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: When?

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we didn't say when.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: How's he going to die?

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we didn't say how.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, he could be there for

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: 10,000 years.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: He could die of old age.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: They've left themselves out.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They know they've left themselves

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: out because they don't want to

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: get pinned into a corner.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you specifically then ask

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: when you try to get specifics or

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: do you wait for them to say

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: specifics?

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you know, there are a lot of

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: other issues.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to institute empathy

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and deference and genuine

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_02]: questions from the very

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: beginning.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to let this thing

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: play out because I need to know.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to get a feel for you.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to talk to you long

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: enough when I know when you're

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: gaslighting me versus when you're

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: telling me the truth.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And if I talk to you long enough,

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to figure that out.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what sort of questions?

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as they're concerned,

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: they think there's one issue.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We have somebody.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We want money for him.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so how do you kind of

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: broaden the list of conversation

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: topics?

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: What are the legitimate questions?

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The first question is,

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: how do I know he's a liar?

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a legitimate question.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: There's three legitimate

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: questions and legitimate

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to ask you whether or

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: not they're legitimate.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Number one, how do I know he's

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: alive?

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Number two, how do I know you got

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: him?

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Number three, if I pay, how do I

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: know you're going to let him go?

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are all legitimate issues

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because there are plenty of

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: kidnappers that fake they got the

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: hostage.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it legitimate to also ask,

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: are you the decision maker?

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: The only case they ever had a

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: lone kidnapper.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to figure that out

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: based on your pronouns.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're using lots of we's,

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: lots of plural pronouns, you're

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: influential.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: You're trying to hide your

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: influence.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like a great business

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiation, you talk to a CEO

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in a great business negotiation

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and this guy goes, look, I got a

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: board of directions I'm

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: accountable to.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And if I make the wrong decision,

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: those guys are going to fire me.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I can't make the decision

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: because I got to take this back

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to my board.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That board is doing whatever that

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: CEO says.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: He's just smart enough to not get

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: backed into the corner.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So anybody in love with plural

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: pronouns is an extremely

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: influential person.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Singular pronoun guy,

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the same as a bartender.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You walk into a bar, there's guys

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: probably the guy's first night

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and you ask him, you know, I like

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Balvini Scotch.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I need a 12 year old Balvini.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And the bartender says, I don't

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: stock that in my bar.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not his bar.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's probably not going to be

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: there six months from now.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's,

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: in any negotiation, if you're

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: talking to somebody who's in love

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: with singular pronouns,

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: they're trying to make themselves

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: more important because they are

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: more important on their side of

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the table.

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional compensation for them

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to make themselves feel

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: important.

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to diagnose that.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you use that information?

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it makes me smarter every

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: step of the way.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: At some point in time, I know

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that whatever I bounce off this

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: guy, he's got to take to

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody else.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm like, I'm cool with that.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I know what's going on.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I expect that to happen.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to start asking

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this guy what and how questions.

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: How do I know he's alive?

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, this poor guy is

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like, how the hell do I know?

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_02]: How are you going to know?

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just here to get money.

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: This actually happened in working

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: a case at Ecuador.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the first time we shift over

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: to the how questions, like just

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: relentless with how.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Pepe Escobar escapes after 28

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: days.

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Resourceful guy.

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Bonded with his kidnappers.

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We're chewing up the clock,

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: giving him more time to bond.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: His emotional instincts are

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: through the roof.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Finally, at the point they're

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: barely keeping track of him, he

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: goes out the back window of a

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: hut in the middle of the jungle

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: at 2 o'clock in the morning

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: driving rainstorm.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He knows he's just got to get a

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: quarter of a mile away.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They're never going to be able

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to follow him because the rain

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to wash away his

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_02]: footprints.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Go to visit him and his family

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: in upstate New York, because

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the first time we tried

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: this.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought we were going to

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: get him on the phone.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We never got him on the phone.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm doing a hostage survival

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: debrief, you know, psychologically

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: how did you preserve yourself

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: emotionally.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really want to find out

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: what happened to my strategy

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because I thought we're going to

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: trigger him to put him on the

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: phone and he never did.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And he says, you know, it's

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: crazy.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They sent this guy to town.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: He was supposed to stay in the

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: town until he got a ransom and

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: then he was supposed to come back

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: out and tell the boss what the

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: ransom was and the boss was

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: going to say yes or no.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But instead, he kept coming back

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: out saying, yeah, his wife's

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: dead.

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And he kept saying, how do we

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: know he's alive?

[01:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know what to do with

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that.

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: What should I do?

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So for over two weeks, the

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: terrorists are thinking about

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_02]: taking Pepe to town to put him on

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a phone.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, what does that mean?

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We totally disrupted their

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: operation.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't get mad about it.

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And they got emotionally

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: invested into taking care of him

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and being nice to him because

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they thought they were going to

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: have to drag him to town to put

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: him on a phone, which then

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: created the opportunity for him

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to escape on his own in the

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: middle of the night.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's what happens.

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Your representative with

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: deference doesn't know what to

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: do.

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And instead of waiting till he's

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: got a package to present to the

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: boss or the boss gives a thumbs

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: up or a thumbs down, they start

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborating far sooner and you

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: create a dynamic that's in your

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: favor among your adversaries

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: on the other side.

[01:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So someone listening to this,

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: let's say, and they're thinking

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: about it in the context of their

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: own lives, like let's say they're

[01:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiating a merger or a salary

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever, like how do they

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: take this?

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a life-and-death

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: situation, but how do they take

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: this?

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, the tactical empathy,

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like bonding, show the other

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: person you're listening that

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: they're being heard or

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: understood, and then how do you

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of veer it towards an

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: outcome that you would desire?

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, you're

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborative, and there's a

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: difference between being

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborative and cooperative.

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Cooperative is your passive.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Collaborative is your player.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You're involved.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you said it's not a

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: life-and-death situation.

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like James, you got an amygdala

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in a limbic system.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You were born with it, and it's

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: from the caveman, and your limbic

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: system doesn't know the difference

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_02]: between the caveman being chased

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: by a saber-toothed tiger or you

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: being yelled at by an adversary.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've all got that.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a caveman response, and your

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: limbic system does not know the

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: difference.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So the emotional reactions are

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: always the same, and that's why

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: this always works.

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Or why the emotional reactions are

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: always the same.

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why this works more than

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: anything else does.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a fine line between

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that distinction that I made.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's entirely the same.

[01:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: People want to be collaborated

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: with.

[01:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to be involved, and

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they have the same basic fears.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you can begin to do that

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: with deference, and you can start

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to trigger the other side's

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: inclination towards you by how

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you approach them.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to give you a

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing affects deal timelines

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: like relationships.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's either going to be an

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: accelerator or it's going to be

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: friction.

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And empathy is an accelerator.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're going to get to your

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: deal sooner with these same

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: techniques, because they were

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: born with a limbic system that

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: has reacted for the same way

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: since the dawn of civilization,

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: according to Elon Musk, about

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_02]: 5,500 years ago, I think.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So treating them with deference,

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_01]: but then again, like, okay, you

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: say, I have a problem.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, my problem is, you

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: know, I'm trying to figure out

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: how to value my company so that

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we can merge, or I'm trying to

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: figure out how all the pieces

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: are going to connect when these

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: two companies come together, or

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to figure out how to

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: be the strategic lead for this

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: project, but still make ends meet

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and blah, blah, blah.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how do you kind of, you

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: know, and they're listening to

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you.

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you sort of just assume

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: they're going to kind of meet you

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: halfway or is there any way to

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of like jog that along?

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: A couple of things in there that

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that you asked me, like

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: meet me halfway.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Never split the difference,

[01:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: always collaborate.

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So halfway may not be the best

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome.

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So how do I find the best

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome?

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say, all right, so

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: before I present my case, let me

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: see if I could summarize how you

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: feel about this.

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's how you see this

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_02]: situation.

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Now what's going to happen is

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to, if I hit the

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: bullseye, bang, oxytocin,

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: serotonin, all the advantages

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that gives me.

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You bond to me, you're honest

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: with me, you want less.

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: If I miss the bullseye and you

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: correct me, the thing that you

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: talked about earlier is I'm

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: triggering status with you.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You're mentoring me, you're

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: helping me.

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Now we're also out of the

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: adversarial position.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing more satisfying

[01:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: than correction.

[01:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's insane.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's to my favor to

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: really wrap my brain about that

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: because people hate to be

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: corrected.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They're embarrassed by it.

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: They'd rather die than be

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: embarrassed.

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But empathy is about the other

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: side and the other side loves to

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: correct.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: They're helping me, they're

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: mentoring me.

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to start throwing

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_02]: out a summary and what I get

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: wrong, you're going to correct

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: me because it feels so good.

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And that dynamic works in my

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: favor also.

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the great thing about

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the correction, like your idea

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: may be better than mine.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to know what you got.

[01:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got stuff I don't know.

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I got stuff you don't know.

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hiding information that's

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: important to me.

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So are you.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: If we could just lay our cards

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_02]: on a table, we'd come up with

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: something extraordinary but we're

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: both afraid of being exploited.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So what I want to do, I want to

[01:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: engage in behavior that's going

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to give me the best chance that

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you'll lay your cards on the

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: table first.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what correction,

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: serotonin, summary, you know all

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: these woo-woo empathy skills,

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: they're actually incredibly

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: powerful.

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so once, okay, once they've

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: let you say something and they've

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: corrected you but now you still

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: want the merger to go through or

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the highest possible valuation or

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you still want the highest

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: possible salary, like what's next

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of again get them to

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: help you close this deal?

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, all right, so what are

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the first principles?

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Why I get away with this.

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Like one of my currencies is

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: authenticity and I believe in

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: long-term relationships,

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: prosperity.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And not only am I going to state

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that but you're going to feel

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that based on everything that I

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: say.

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So if my goal is for you and me

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to prosper together for the next

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: 20 years, and it is,

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: then you're going to start

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: opening it up to me.

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to get out of

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: short-term thinking, quarterly

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: profits, and you're going to

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: start thinking about a 20-year

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: long tail of prosperity.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And that begins to change your

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: valuation.

[01:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So then, you know, let's say

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: we've negotiated in good faith

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and I still don't like the deal.

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: For me, for my company, what we

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: do, I will say, look, I can't

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: make this deal.

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's why you want what you

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: want, and you're entitled to

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, here's what I have to have

[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in order for us to have a 20-year

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_02]: run together where 20 years from

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: now we both look back on this and

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: go like, this is the best 20,

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: this is the best deal I ever

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: made.

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What I'm doing is I'm not backing

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you into a corner, but I'm showing

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you what prosperity looks like with

[01:15:06] [SPEAKER_02]: me so that you say yes or no.

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I never leave my business

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: partners wondering how we could

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: have made a deal.

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Every time we get close to the

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: finish line, there's never going

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to be any doubt in your mind what

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm after because I never want to

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: be in a position where five years

[01:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: later you say, oh my God, if you

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: had just told me, I could have

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: done that.

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a believer in

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: authenticity and long-term

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships, and this works out

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: really well for me.

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I've made some great deals.

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I made a deal once where I said,

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: as is, I'll sign.

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Understand when I get ready to

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: tell you what I'm going to tell

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you, you don't have to give it to

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: me.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to sign the deal that

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you put in front of me right now

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: as is.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's where it fell short.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And every single time they've

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: gone back and they've either met

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that condition or they improved

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: something because I'm not holding

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: a gun to your head.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Make no mistake, I'm not taking

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you hostage over this.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not holding a gun to your

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: head.

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But if I don't tell you, then you

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: can blame me for not telling you.

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I never want to be in that

[01:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: position.

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really brilliant because

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't want you to resent the

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: deal afterwards.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So and now you've built this

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship so they don't want

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you to be resentful.

[01:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a two-way street, yeah.

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And resentment is expensive.

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so fascinating.

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The whole aspects of negotiation

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: are really fascinating and you've

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: been the expert on this for so

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: long.

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I so appreciate your book.

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I always still refer to it.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I've written about it.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Never split the difference.

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And now this documentary is

[01:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: amazing.

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, let's talk about it a little

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: bit, can we?

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you know, your friend of

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: mine, Nick Nant, Emmy winning

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: director.

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I mean, this documentary

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of follows your career and

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the things you've learned at

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: different aspects of your career.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's on Amazon.

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: People can see it on Amazon as we

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: speak.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And Nick did a great job.

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it does goes and shows

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: him from Iowa, touches on Kansas

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: City time and a small town boy

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: from Iowa and then some

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: significant cases that shaped

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: my thinking on negotiation.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not all good.

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If anybody tells you they succeed

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: all the time, they're lying to

[01:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you.

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And also some kind of historic,

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: historically important cases like

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the George Floyd case you cover

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and like how police could

[01:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: escalate or deescalate from

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: there.

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: There was an interesting thing

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned at the end where you

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: say how anger lowers IQ.

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you don't want either

[01:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: side to be angry because then

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: both sides are going to end up

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: being angry and just the

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiations falling apart or

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiation is falling apart

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: because everyone just loses IQ.

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't realize until

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody mentioned this to me

[01:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: just two days ago, not only does

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: anger give you IQ, but it also

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: lowers your IQ and it gives you

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: energy.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Now think about that double

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: whammy combination.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You're dumber and you have more

[01:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: energy.

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what anger does to you.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned so much watching this

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: documentary.

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I highly recommend everybody watch

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: this because you see you in

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: action.

[01:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just reading about it.

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You see you and the other people

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that you've worked with, that

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you've learned from in action

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: doing their thing.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't think of a more

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: valuable guide to, visual guide

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to negotiation and then watching

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the best in the world do it.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, James.

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you give me a rating?

[01:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you rate it?

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I got it because of

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the podcast.

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I got like a link to it.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't even, I got to go

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: on Amazon now and review it.

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I will do that though.

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like a Lyft driver here.

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's five stars.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll give you a good tip.

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: By the way, I always tell people,

[01:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I always tell the Uber drivers,

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give you five stars

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: because I want them to give me

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: five stars. Is that a good

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: strategy or not?

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I love it.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, you're an authentic

[01:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: guy and I'm sure they sense that

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: in you.

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, you're leading by

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: with generosity.

[01:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you don't ask, but you're

[01:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for generosity.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You're looking for reciprocity.

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's brilliant.

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, good.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I want to ask you one

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: more negotiating tactic.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: This happened to me recently

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: where I was in a small sort of

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiation and someone said this

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: phrase, James, I know you're an

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: honorable man.

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So and then blah, blah, blah,

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: continues what he's asking for.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But that impacted me.

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, this person thinks I'm

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: honorable.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of like made the

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiation, as you said, go

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: faster because I was more

[01:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: sympathetic to his cause all of a

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: sudden. So he shaped me by

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: putting a definition around me.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what he did was he called

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: out a positive emotion or a

[01:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: positive feeling or a positive

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: attribute.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And that tends to reinforce it.

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And my words are very

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: carefully chosen.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I said tends to.

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the other thing that went

[01:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: into this context between your

[01:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: interactions was you've already

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: got a gun in the stick reaction

[01:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to this guy.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So your supercomputer, your

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: instinct is giving you a read on

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not this is

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: manipulation or genuine.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I see. Because he was a friend

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway, so it tended to work

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: better. If it was just a plain

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: negotiation where he didn't I

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: had a sense he didn't really know

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: me that well, it might have had a

[01:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: negative effect.

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Your guard would have been up

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: more. You would have had as much

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of an instinctive feel for this

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: person. And your supercomputer

[01:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: instinct, I mean, is everybody's

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: instinct is good. It's whether

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: we're listening to our instinct

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: or amygdala is a question.

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's triggering.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You had an instinct on him and

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: then he labeled a positive and it

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: was a negative.

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Chris Voss, Tactical

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Empathy, the documentary on

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazon done by my buddy, Nick

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Nanton, who's such a great

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: director, producer of

[01:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: documentaries, everything.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: He's such a good human being.

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that he even did a

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: documentary on you, Chris, says

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: something about you.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I know all the subjects of his

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: documentaries. They're all like

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: great people, except for me.

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Not true.

[01:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So thanks so much for coming

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: on the podcast again. Great to

[01:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: have you and hope you come on

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: again sometime soon.

[01:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: James, my pleasure. Thank you

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for having me on.