The Pillars of Life with Marshall Goldsmith

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host. This is the

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: James Altucher Show.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You have like the best name in the world for someone who's going to write about leadership.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I would hire you as a coach just for your, like Marshall Goldsmith is like the

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: perfect name somehow.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, your name's a little tougher.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I would switch names with you if you wanted to.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good with my name.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: James Altucher.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I like it.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So annoying.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I got a good name.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sounds pretty official.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're starting MarshallGoldsmith.ai for people who don't know you.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You've written an enormous number of books about leadership, very successful books.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You've sold over 3 million copies of your books.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Your articles are read everywhere.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You coach many Fortune 500 CEOs and other people.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You're known as a leader's leader.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you teach people how to more effectively lead.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to get to some of your books and I want to get to MarshallGoldsmith.ai, the

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: new AI venture you're doing.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But what does it mean to be a good coach?

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like can you give an example of someone you've helped?

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm very, I can mention the name of all my clients.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's see.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know who Alan Malalia is?

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: The guy that turned around Ford?

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I was his coach.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Alan, an amazing, amazing person.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I started coaching him when he was before he went to Ford and he's, he and I are

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: writing a book together right now and he's probably one of the greatest corporate

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: CEOs in the world in the last 30 years.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And he...

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And Ford's like the only car company I feel that hasn't gone bankrupt.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, remember what happened?

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He went there when they were going bankrupt.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: The stock was at one-on-one, he left the stock was 1840 and even more impressive,

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: he had a 97% approval rating from every employee in a union company.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a united auto workers talking about a CEO.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: That's mind blowing.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was the first non-Ford family member, right?

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: To be CEO, I believe.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think like Bill Ford was the CEO before him.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it might have a couple before him.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: In any case, an amazing leader.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So I, you know, and I learned a great lesson from him aside Alan, now he and I are

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_03]: doing the book.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, Alan, he's a friend of mine up there 20, 30 years.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So I said, Alan, of all people I coached, you improve the most.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I spent the least amount of time working with you and you were great to start

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: with.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, I made a chart on one to better just called time spent with me

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and the other mentioned called improvement.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was a negative correlation between spending time with me and improving.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I said, the way the chart looks, hey, you never met me, it'd be even better.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So I said, what should I learn about coaching from you?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You only have one problem as a coach.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Work with great people or great people who win work with people.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't care you lose.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Only work with great people or a dedicated hardworking.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to look like a genius.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's the point though.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe like I always wonder if how much effect coaching actually happens.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like people, I find in general, people don't really change.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the whole thing with everything.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You just read it.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Tell me, tell me.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: People definitely, people look for 47 years, I didn't get paid

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: if my clients didn't get better.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: People didn't get changed.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't get paid.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Now people can have huge changes.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Now Alan was great to start with.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give you an example of a guy who wrote a book about it

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: who would tell you he had a lot of room for improvement.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Start with Uber's your lead.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Uber was CEO best buy.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The guy turned best buy around.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, he would tell you.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He wrote a book about the heart of business.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_03]: He talks about me being his coach.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: When he would tell you he really improved a lot.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Now he's a great leader.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He would tell you I wasn't great to start with.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He would say unlike Alan who I said was fantastic to begin with.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He was never a bad guy.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I use X Mackenzie guy, very analytical, you know, a little bit cold.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: But he just really got better.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So he'd be an example of guy that had really

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: like, like what way was he bad and what way did his coaching

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: did your coaching help him get better so that he could turn around best buy.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And best buy you really is an amazing story since all that stuff

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you could buy online somehow best buy is a successful store.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, what happened?

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He wrote a book about it called the heart of business

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and he talks about having a coach.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me talk about him.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_03]: He wasn't a bad guy.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Nobody worked with a bad person or evil or mean or they're not,

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, genetically defective.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He was just.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: A little bit more Mackenzie.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I don't I guess I'm using a stereotype, but you know,

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_03]: his ex Mackenzie guy, analytical, what are the numbers?

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello, what are the numbers?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: He really didn't relate with people very well.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He wouldn't be described as a guy who you wanted to go over the hill for.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And can I ask you a question?

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So how does that translate into being bad at being a CEO of best buy?

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's a specific example where?

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, let me give you an example.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes to best buy and he stands up in front of everybody.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And the first thing he says, my name is a bearish only I get feedback.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a coach I'm trying to improve.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Then he says, I want you to do the same thing.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, this is key lead by example.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, look, it wasn't a secret they're going bankrupt.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I need you more than you need me.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I need you more than you need me.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And let's work together and try to turn the ship around.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And he really, he did a spectacular job.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Now again, Alan did a spectacular job to starting from a different base though.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So so what we saw you saying though with with best buy,

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: what he was because he was coaching and because he was working on improving himself,

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: one way he built, let's say, a tribe of among the employees of

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: best buy is that he said, Hey, we're in this.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He got them to think we're in this together.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We can it's important to you to save this company and you can do that by improving yourself.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was sort of inspirational to people.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly right.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, I would never claim that somebody had a leadership coach.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So the company started making money next week, but they're a leadership coach.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a degree in mathematics and there are like a million variables

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: impacting the bottom line of a corporation that I have no control over.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: For example, I coached a guy who was a CEO of Texco and stock doubled in value

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in one year. Well, you know, whoop-de-doo there happened to be a war in the Middle East.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, come on.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't sit there and say it took credit for the stock doubling.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Now he was seen as a more effective leader by the people he works with.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But I can hardly say that's why the stock doubled because I was there.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And OK, like for both these last two guys, like forget Alan for a second

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because he was born out of the womb, a great leader.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Although I don't discount your coaching.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But like what did you do with these guys that helped them become better,

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: more effective, more successful and things we all want to do?

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let me describe the way I work.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's imagine that you're the future CEO.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, and I'm coaching you.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I would say, all right, first, I only work with people who want to improve

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: their behavior. I'm not an expert on strategy.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not an expert in finance, marketing, and stuff.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I focus strictly on helping very successful leaders that you've positive

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: change your behavior to only work with successful people.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not in the fix the loser business.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in help the winner business.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So I only work with very successful people only to positive change

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: in their behavior.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So step one is you have to identify your key stakeholders.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'd say, all right, who are the most important people in your life

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_03]: that you work with you?

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're not the CEO, the CEO would have to agree on this.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_03]: These would typically be board members.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: They would typically be peers, direct reports, colleagues.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Average client has 18.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: After you have 18 stakeholders, 18 average, that's average.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Most as 40 something, at least as eight.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So so so a stakeholder, though, just to understand these are people

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: who are very important to my success.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Like altogether, we like so so board members help me or either

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or they either help me or they have to approve of decisive decisions

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to move the company forward.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Big shareholders or investors, they're important.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Key employees like my bench, like if I'm the CEO, the CFO,

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe the head of sales, these are people I need to kind of get

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: motivated and who else?

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and it could be also about, I'd say 60% I interview their family.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: The reason is you see it's good to interview people outside of work,

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: like the family.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's why for most of us, the same problems we have at work,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03]: we haven't home.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you get the feedback at work, you might say, well,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that's just them or me.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't like that way normally.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You get the same feedback at home.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty hard to say, wait a minute, when met.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Your wife says this or kids say this.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: No, when you work with this, maybe it's you.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It gets a little harder to deny.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So I interview everybody.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I do these confidential feedback reports.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, do you know Dave Chang, the chef?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a guy.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_03]: He also wrote a book.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He did a momma foco.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I love Dave.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: He wrote a book also about me being his coach.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I didn't know that.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know that you were his coach.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Now you wrote a book called Eat A Peach.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Now the book is a serious book.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: The part about me is hilarious.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He talks about getting feedback from me and just like,

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So like, tell me, tell me the story.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He talks about getting feedback from me.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hilarious.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I, he might have exaggerated a little bit.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He says, well, this guy Marshall comes in

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and he's talked to everyone around me.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He's got this feedback.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And his first he starts with positives.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes on and on about how good I am.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sitting there thinking, well, I don't know if I need a coach at all.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_03]: He's probably going to tell me I'm just fantastic.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Then he said he starts on the negatives

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and it goes on and on and on.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Will this ever end?

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And he finally says, what were some of the negatives?

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_03]: How typical stuff, you know, arrogant, no one, all try to be right all the time.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Impatient, you know, it's not nothing.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't seen her a few hundred times.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So then he goes on and on.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hilarious.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Then then he says, was there any hope at all?

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Is there any good news here?

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's a lot of good news.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Number one, people work with you.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a shocker in the first place.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know why anybody's here, but they are.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank God for that.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he said, and it is terrible, but it is published in his book.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, do you have any advice for me?

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, yeah, two words each shit.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, well, and then he said, what happens after I eat shit?

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, eat a little more.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And what do you mean?

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: He means to kind of apologize.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Just apologize.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Quit trying to be right.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, don't be rude to people.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just get up and say you're sorry.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And once once you started working with him, how did you see his him change?

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you see his business change?

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Did his business change?

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, look, I can't say you can ask me, did I do X and did they become rich?

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I really don't even know enough to give an intelligent answer to that question.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I get that because there's no metrics for like personality development or

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, success really.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Success.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me tell you what I'm most proud of with him though.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing to do with business.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: His son, he loves his kids.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And Dave, if you read his book, this isn't a secret.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll tell you that, you know, he didn't always have the easiest time being happy.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I always try to look a lot of people I coach are mostly rich people anyway.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I do a lot of volunteer work, but the ones that pay me mostly have money anyway.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So one of my selves to you move from 4 billion to 4.1 billion, you know, so.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I just hope people have a better life and the people around them have a better life.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And if I've got to explain to doing this is going to help them make money.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm talking to the wrong client anyway.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: If they don't have it in their heart, why am I working with him?

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Help some rich guy get richer?

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, who cares?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway, Dave, what I'm most proud of though is.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I got to him with one thing.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, you want your kid to be happy?

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Said more than anything.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, do you believe in leadership?

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_03]: By example, he said, I do.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I have a coach.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I've been doing this stuff.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You want your kid to be happy?

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You go first.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You go first, you'll be happy.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And really for him, for some reason that just hit that hit the mark.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Because he wasn't connecting his personal happiness.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_03]: With how that impacted his family.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, what's more important?

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, look, nobody coach going to starve to death.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Who bears not starving to death.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Dave's not starving to death.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Alan's not starving to death.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: These are all now they're doing just fine.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_03]: They meet me.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They're doing fine.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't mean they're gonna find it.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, what I'm most proud of is he would say, help him have a better life.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And what did he do?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Focused on being happy.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And how did he do that?

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not as complex as you think.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I'll ask you a question.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll see if I can coach you a little bit ready.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm coachable.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to be coached.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, well, well, and you may not have an issue with this, but I'll ask anyway.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things that my daughter Kelly taught me is active questions.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: They all begin with phrase, did I do my best to?

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the clients, all my clients asked question, how would you score in

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_03]: the answer to this question?

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I do my best to be happy today?

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Now this is in one of my books.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Three people I asked this question to are one, Dr.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Jim Kim.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Dr. Jim Kim has a simultaneous MD and PhD with honors from Harvard

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03]: in anthropology in five years was president of Dartmouth and one

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: of the best to be head of the World Bank.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and now he's a global investment partners.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Dr. Ross Shaw was head of the USA at age 35 reported Hillary Clinton.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Now he's head of the Rockefeller Foundation and Dr.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_03]: John Nosort is head of Mayo Clinic.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, reasonably smart people there.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: All medical doctors I said on average day how would you score in?

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I do my best to be happy?

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: All three had the same answer.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Never dawned on me to try to be happy.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Now they're all medical doctors.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So I said, did it dull in?

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to die.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They cover that in medical school.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_03]: They brought up that death thing.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I see you think it's a stupid question.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So no, it was important question.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I forgot to ask too busy achieving things.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that the most driven people often have a hard time

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledging the role of happiness in their lives?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: A comment.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, first you have an answer to my question.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Average day, one to 10 scale.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_03]: How do you score and did I do my best to be happy on the average day?

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: On the average day, I would say about a six or seven.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And at times it's been as high as an eight.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: As time has been as low as a two or three.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, here's my idea for you.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Ready? Yeah.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Test yourself every day on that question.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Every day just fill a little give yourself score every day.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Takes about two minutes to do that.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a good idea.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But let me I'm going to challenge it for a second.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, wait, you want more coaching?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things I teach in my book is when people give you ideas,

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: you never say that's a good idea.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But because as soon as you say but it shows,

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you're not really listening to the idea.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You're right, because I'm thinking of times when I wasn't happy,

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's because I was driving myself towards a goal.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't happy.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I outsourced my happiness to whether I was achieving some goal or not.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Fantastic example.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you ready? I'm going to teach you something.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Sophie Bacall is excuse me, Sophie Bacall.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Or if you know him, he wrote a book called Loon Chots.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_03]: No, when he was Sophie Bacall's in this group, I was six.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I was the 60 really bright people over COVID for two years.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So I could spend every weekend with these 60 people.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We did all these groups and stuff.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Sophie was one of the people.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_03]: No, he said, I finally learned a lesson in these groups,

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_03]: which you need to learn this lesson.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you ready? Yes.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a scientist.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I finally realized happiness and achievement are independent variables.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I always believe that I would be happy after I achieved something.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: We said, I realized happiness and achievement are independent variables.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I said, Sophie, I'm glad you realized that you already have

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_03]: a PhD in physics from Stanford.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You wrote an early times facility book called Loon Chots.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You started four businesses.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You made a zillion dollars.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_03]: You consulted presidents.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not enough achievement to make you happy.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_03]: You think a little more is going to get over the line?

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, ready for coaching for you? Yes.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I read your bio.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_03]: If that's not enough achievement to make you happy,

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: do you really believe a little more is going to get it over the line?

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Take a quick break.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If you like this episode, I'd really, really appreciate it.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean so much to me.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Please share it with your friends and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Email me at Altature at gmail.com and tell me why you subscribed.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I was just watching this documentary breakpoint about tennis players

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: who are, let's say they're in the top 100, but they're not in the top five

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: or top 10. Right.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Almost all of them were miserable.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So these are like let's say let's say 500 million people around the world

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: play tennis. Right.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And these are the best.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: These were like six of the best hundred.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Of those 500 million people.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And all they've done is work out tennis and they've achieved.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They're like the best and it's a game.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a fun thing to be the best in the world at all of them were miserable.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's a fun thing for how long?

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I don't know how long not very long.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, one of the guys.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, for instance, they're miserable when they lose.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, of course.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_03]: One of the guys that coaches Albert Burl, Albert C.O.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Pfizer called him a few years ago and said, Albert, how's it going?

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, going good.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Came up with that vaccine.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, very good, Albert.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Good job.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I took that vaccine maybe to save my life.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, in the end, the company price all time high pride in the company on

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03]: just an unbelievable year.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, Albert, great job.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You got any problems?

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I have a huge problem.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So what is it?

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03]: You said next year.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_03]: If his happiness is a function of doing better than last year, he can pack it in.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It's never going to happen again.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Michael Phelps won 25 gold medals.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think of doing after winning 25?

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Kill himself.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't achieve yourself to happiness.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, in one of my books, I talk about three things.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_03]: One is our aspirations since of higher purpose.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Two is our ambitions, our desire to achieve.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And three is our day-to-day actions enjoying the process and engagement

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: of life itself.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_03]: People listening to you right now or listening to me right now, they're not

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: lost in their heads.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not lost in lofty thoughts.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not their problem.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're not heedless or just watching video games all day trying to have fun.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not their problem.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: The people listening to us right now tend to be addicted to achievement.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And they tend to believe that they're going to be happy once they get a

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_03]: result, once they make a number, blah, blah, blah.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all going to be good when.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But they don't realize there is no when.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Why is there no when?

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: What if they define their metric and...

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: The Buddhist term is the hungry ghost.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: What that means is you're always eating, but you're never full.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: There is never enough.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, achievement is a good thing.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And happiness and peace are good things.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03]: They're independent variables.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_03]: You're never going to achieve your way to be happy.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I work with billionaires.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Some are very happy, some are miserable.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: There's almost no correlation between money and happiness after that.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I think they're both important.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Achieve to achieve.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Be happy to be happy.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not the same thing.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And so let's say...

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I don't want to act like I'm challenging you on this.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me do it more as a how question.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: How can you...

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: How can you motivate yourself in a positive way

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: without being too attached to the results?

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Very simple.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You can motivate yourself by the process of the result.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take a golfer, for example.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Being attached to the results doesn't help anyway.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't help you achieve anything.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, golfer...

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell the parable of the golfer.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_03]: The golfer is on the last hole.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: People are trying to make a noise, yelling...

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He's annoyed.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a little country club here.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_03]: He hits the drive.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_03]: The last hole has a chance to win the club championship.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Looks perfect!

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Somehow it goes into the rough.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: What happened?

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a beer can.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He's pissed off, angry at those idiots.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03]: What's the golfer going to do?

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about the results.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about the results.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about the results.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about the drive.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about the pass.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Forget about winning the club championship.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Hit the shot in front of you.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, Roger Federer just listened to him talk.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He was a pretty famous athlete.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what Roger said?

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_03]: The point you're about to play is the most important point in the world.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, don't focus on the results.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't focus on results.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_03]: When you focus on the results, just scrub your head.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But...

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so he says...

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he's a good boy.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03]: But again, see, but...

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, I find my clients $20 every time

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_03]: they start a sins with no but or however.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So you're down...

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And they donate their money to charities.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So your favorite charity is now $140.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well done.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So what if you lose that point?

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the most important point in the world.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what you do?

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_03]: The point you're playing is the most important point in the world.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Then the next point is the most important point in the world.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_03]: What if that's the end of the match?

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: End of the match.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what?

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Match is over.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Match is over.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's done.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: John Wooden was a coach at UCLA.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He believed in this stuff.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: He was the most winning coach in college history.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what he said?

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't ever focus on winning.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You focus on the shot.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Coach K. Duke, here's a great saying.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: The player hits the shot, jumps up and down.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what he says?

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Next play.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: The player hits the shot, misses the shot, they're depressed.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what he says?

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Next play.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Play the shot.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I imagine it's so hard because let's say...

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say you're an athlete like that

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and you devoted your childhood, your teenage years.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you're young adult years to making those shots

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you suddenly stop making them.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get afraid.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get afraid, hey, this is my career

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe Coach K. won't like me anymore

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I'm not going to get the best positions

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and I won't get drafted

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'll have to work in a supermarket instead.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's fear.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not thinking about the shot then.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You think about a bunch of other stuff.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Not the shot.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you know Curtis Martin?

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Curtis was a football star at National Football League anyway.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He was number five rusher in history

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and a lot of ex-athletes have huge problems.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: You see, they focus on results

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: but what happens after the game's over?

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or their career is then relatively young.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what happens when their career is over?

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Alcoholism, drug addiction.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of money is spent giving money to their friends

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_03]: because they try to buy love.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what happens when you focus on results all the time.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you learn then

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: to not have any external or man-made metric

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to evaluate your self-worth?

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You were on a roll until you said self-worth.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's fine to have external metrics.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure you look at external metrics,

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03]: probably know how many people list your podcast.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You know how many people you and I both do on LinkedIn.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not like you have no metrics here.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_03]: You're very familiar with these metrics and it's okay.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I have metrics, you have metrics.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Coach K has metrics.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: John wouldn't try.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_03]: He wanted to win the national championship

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_03]: but he didn't fix it on that.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He said you win, you win, you lose, you lose as life

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: and don't get fixated.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: This is basically the oldest poem in history

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: is called Bahá'íbhídia

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and the whole purpose of the game is

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_03]: never focus on results.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Never place your values of human on results.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't win.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You cannot win when you do this.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, most motivational speakers,

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: what's the old message?

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Achieve more, achieve more, delayed gratification.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you familiar with the marshmallow research

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_03]: at Stanford?

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, give a kid a marshmallow.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Eat one, you get one, but if you wait, you get two.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, and they say, oh, allegedly they did

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_03]: this longitudinal research.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_03]: The kids that ate one all become losers

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and junkies.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Kids that eat two are all heroes, right?

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and the message is delayed gratification is good.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Every self-help book, delayed gratification is good.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure you've had speakers.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's how you're going a better diet.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's how you work out more, blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Delayed gratification is good.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's what they didn't do in the study.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't take the kid with two marshmallows

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and said, hey kid, wait a bit.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You get three.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's wait some more.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Four, five, ten, a hundred, a thousand.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Where does the story end?

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh man, oh man sitting in a room surrounded

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_03]: by a thousand uneaten marshmallows.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes you need to eat the damn marshmallow.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, what was the big deal about getting two marshmallows?

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Why not just eat one?

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't do the research.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I just want one.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't do the research.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You can look it up.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack Welch almost died.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack Welch was famous as CEO.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_03]: He had triple bypass surgery.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_03]: My friend worked with him on his book.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, Jack had triple bypass surgery there for a second

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and he thought you might die.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: What did you learn about life?

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: He's waiting for some deep comment.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_03]: What did you learn about life when you had triple bypass surgery?

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03]: You thought you might die.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack Welch said, why am I drinking the damn cheap wine

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: every night?

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Jack Welch has this incredible wine collection.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_03]: He's drinking cheap wine, waiting for his wine to appreciate

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and value.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And he said, I'm Jack Welch.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm rich.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: This is insane.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a really good point.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of these people, like you said, they're all rich.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They're all successful.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: What about somebody who's listening to this,

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: who's really afraid?

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Inflation's gone up.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they lost their job.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They might not be able to feed their family.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Their spouse no longer cares about them as much

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and they think it's because they don't have a job.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, they're just afraid.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Start working on getting a job.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Hit the shot in front of you.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing?

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Sitting there being afraid doesn't help you any.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing?

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like you can't think your way out of fear

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or depression or anxiety.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to act your way out of these things.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me give you another example.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a common misconception of the clutch shooter in sports.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You heard that?

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a clutch shooter.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all BS.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody's done research on this, right?

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: In fact, the more pressure you're under,

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_03]: you tend to do worse.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And even the best players are under pressure.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_03]: They're as good as they are when they're not under pressure.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03]: What does that mean?

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That means they don't choke.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I see.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't let the back to results.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't focus on the result.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: They focus on the shot.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to hit the shot?

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't think about the result.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You think about the result.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not thinking about the shot.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So how can you...

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you go about, let's say,

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: training yourself to not focus on the results

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: when the results are really important to you?

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, I didn't say achievement was a bad thing

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03]: or it should be unimportant.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Or you shouldn't try to achieve results is fine.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Just don't believe that's ever going to make you happy

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03]: or find peace.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It won't.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, let's say someone like David Chang,

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you were able to motivate him through the story

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: with his linking happiness to the happiness of his child.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But what general techniques...

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say one of these tennis players was always miserable.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Another butt there, by the way, but they'll go ahead.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's $200 or whatever.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So how can I, on things that are very important to me,

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: how can I not focus as much on the results?

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say I publish a book and it's not a best seller.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep saying don't focus on results.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't say that.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't say results are trivial or unimportant.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: What I said is you don't place your values

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_03]: of human being based on the results

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and you don't think the results are going to make you happy.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take you.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Now you do podcasts.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You probably count how many people listen to podcasts

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_03]: or some nonsense like that

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: or followers you have on LinkedIn.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Such foolishness, right?

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that's fine.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I do too.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't have a podcast,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_03]: but I count how many followers they have on LinkedIn

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and all that crap.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So I do the same thing.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's the key though.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't fix it on it.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't fix it on it, shit.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's say you do a podcast in your podcast of the year.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, fine.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Who gives a shit?

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_03]: That doesn't...

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: How long is that going to last?

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you going to be a podcast of the year forever?

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you say, I still wouldn't have a great podcast.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to have fun.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to enjoy this podcast.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to do the best I can.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying you don't try.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_03]: John Wooden did say,

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03]: don't try to the basketball players.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Coach Kay didn't say, don't try.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_03]: What he said is play the game.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You're thinking about winning the game.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not playing the game.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You play the game.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You improve your odds.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to win the game.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That is interesting.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So are we just talking some bullshit semantics?

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Or is there something real there?

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03]: No, there's not just bullshit semantics because let's take the guys that coach.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_03]: If you place your value on achievement, your happiness on achievement,

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03]: you're just not going to be happy.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Now you may or may not.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's assume you don't achieve anymore in your life at all.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's take you as an example.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You achieve no more.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Who gives a shit?

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03]: You've already achieved a lot anyway.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But let's say you do your best and you achieve a lot or you've not.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's say out of this phone call, or Zoom call, you only got one thing.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Or let's say you break even.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: You neither become more nor less effective.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And very few of my clients would say I made them less effective.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay?

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's say you don't become more effective or less effective,

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_03]: but you're happier.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Bad call or good call?

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that would be a great call.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the question is, how do I get to that point where like,

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: look, let's say I'm afraid if I don't achieve more people won't

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like me as much.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's a legitimate fear for me.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: How do I kind of move in a direction where I don't think

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: like that as much?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the first thing you say is if I don't achieve more,

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_03]: people may not like me as much.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they won't.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That reminds me actually of like, like, like Byron Katie's approach.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you ask yourself, is this true?

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, maybe they will.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe they won't.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: My thing for you is though, look, when you wake up in the morning,

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03]: just try this out by I'm giving you a suggestion and takes about two

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03]: minutes a day.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Now you're not going to be out much if it doesn't work here.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And I doubt you're going to achieve less.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Are you ready?

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Every day you're going to ask yourself one question.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I do my best to be happy today?

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That's all.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're going to write it on a scale.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_03]: If you just do that, you're going to get better.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: You just going to remind look, it's very interesting.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I coached one guy's worth $4 billion.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I said to him, what am I supposed to do?

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Get to 4.1.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, no, I'm not really happy.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, you made me help my friend be happier.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, fine.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I worked with a guy for like a year, year and a half.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He got much happier doing great.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I called him up.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, maybe four or five years later.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_03]: How's it going?

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Not so good.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, what happened?

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I forgot to be happy.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I forgot to be happy.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what did he forget to do?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: He forgot to remind himself to be happy.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_03]: He woke up in the morning and he forgot to be happy.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He got so busy doing shit that he forgot to be happy.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_03]: This happens all the time.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You forget to be happy while you're too busy.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Too busy to cheat me things.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Going back to what John Wooden said, play the game.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And probably maybe two things will happen.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably the results will be better and be, you'll be happier.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's right.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Play the game.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Three things.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03]: One, you need a higher purpose in life.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You need some answer to question why am I doing this in the first place?

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And nobody can tell you what that is.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yours is yours.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Mine's mine.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But you need some sense of why am I doing this other than I'm just doing it.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Number two, you need to achieve things.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying achievement is bad.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm pro-achievement.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You need to achieve things that are consistent with your higher purpose.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And number three, though, is you need to enjoy the process of life itself.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't want to die and say, look, I had a higher purpose.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I achieved a lot of shit and I was miserable.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not particularly a great idea.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So these are three things you need to do, but they're not the same things.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you take a Buddhist perspective to a lot of your coaching.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: In Buddhism, it seems like there is no man-made higher purpose.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You're fooling oneself if you think there's a higher purpose.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it depends.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_03]: There are many schools of Buddhist thought.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So really, I don't say in Buddhism they do this, that or the other

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_03]: because you can take five schools of Buddhism and they believe five different things.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Buddhists only do what they teach works for you.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So really, there is no Buddhism says anything.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't want to voice this off on Buddha.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll just give you my philosophy.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_03]: My philosophy is look, it's good to have some higher purpose in life.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So all that work you're doing is for some reason.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Two, it's good to achieve things because then you're actually doing something

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: other than just having a higher purpose.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And three, it's good to enjoy the process of life itself.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Four, don't assume that one of those gets you to the other.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: It won't.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You can achieve a lot and make $20 million have no purpose in life.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You can also have a higher purpose and achieve nothing.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can also have a high purpose and achieve everything and not be happy.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So those are three different things that are all very good in and of themselves.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But as Safi said, they're independent variables, not dependent variables.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Most people listening right now think that peace of mind and happiness

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: are dependent variable based upon achievement.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I can guarantee you one thing.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They are not.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That's one thing I can say with certainty.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You're never going to achieve yourself the peace.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_03]: You're never going to achieve yourself the happiness.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no amount of money that's going to buy it.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Making money and achieve what would make you happy.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_03]: The people I coach, those 60 people every weekend,

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: would jump up and down off the ceiling every day.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Benjamin Franklin once said,

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in any year if you make $101 and you spend $100, you're happy.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: If you make $99 and you spend $100, you're unhappy.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So there is something to peace of mind in just paying the bills.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not arguing about paying the bills.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not arguing to achieve.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying you shouldn't make money.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying any of those things.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it might be easier to have peace of mind and happiness

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: if you simply could pay your bills.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Not really.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, for people listening on this call, let's get real.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_03]: The people listening on this call are not going bankrupt.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_03]: People listening on this call can pay their bills.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_03]: People listening to us right now read books.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_03]: They listen to talks like this.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_03]: The people you're talking about, none of those people

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: are listening to this call right now.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03]: None of those people buy my books.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I've done studies who buys my books, your books.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: None of those people buy these books.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_03]: We're not talking to any of those people right now.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: On this call right now, you've got a bunch of very smart,

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03]: highly intelligent people that are trying to get better

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: in life and are very driven to achieve.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I doubt very few, very few people listen to this call

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: or bankrupt.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Who do you think buys your books?

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I did a study on that.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Two-thirds have graduate degrees.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_03]: 95% graduate from college.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_03]: They're mostly very bright people

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_03]: who are focused on trying to get better.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so now you're doing this AI thing

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: so people can access.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I can go to marshalgoldsmith.ai

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and ask questions to Marshal Goldsmith.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I can talk to Marshal Goldsmith, Marshal's wisdom,

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: ready for all.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's free.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to ask you the question right now.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Now let me ask you a question.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll talk to me.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03]: What's a good question?

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Why am I never happy?

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, slow down.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's start and ask you 12 questions.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_03]: When I achieve my goals.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_03]: What can I do to be happy

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_03]: in a way that is not dependent on achieving my goals?

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'll see what my friends do.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I haven't asked you this way before,

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_03]: but I'll find out.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_03]: To be happy in a way that does not depend

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_03]: on achieving your goals,

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_03]: you can focus on the following.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_03]: One, practice gratitude.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Regularly reflect on what you are thankful for.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Gratitude can shift your focus

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_03]: from what you lack to what you have.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Two, engage in acts of kindness.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Helping others can provide a sense of joy

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and fulfillment that is not tied

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_03]: to personal achievements.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Three, cultivate mindfulness.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Live in the present moment.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Mindfulness can help you appreciate the here and now

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_03]: rather than being preoccupied

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_03]: with future aspirations.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Anyway, it goes on.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It goes on.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting about the gratitude.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like Stephen Kotler,

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: who is this expert on flow,

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: said that the easiest way

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of hack flow

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is to practice gratitude.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I never thought of that.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know for sure if it's true,

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: but I like the sound of it.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sounds good.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, a lot of times people suggest,

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a lot of people come on this podcast

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: who suggest certain things,

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: certain diets, certain ways of thinking,

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: certain attitudes.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's hard to...

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to know if anything is true.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: What's that?

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to know what's true.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you know, I'm certainly not an expert,

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_03]: but probably, for my guess,

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_03]: most of the diets probably work.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03]: By the way, my coaching process,

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I did a study called Leadership as a Contact Export.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to copy of it?

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Send me an email,

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: marshalandmarshalgoalswith.com,

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll send you a copy.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: 86,000 people,

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you do the stuff I teach,

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: you will be perceived as more effective leader

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: by all those cute stakeholders.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a theory.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a fact.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to do.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I teach something called a daily question process.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Every day, I evaluate myself on questions.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard to do.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I've had this,

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: people ask me, do I have a coach?

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I have somebody call me on the phone every day

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_03]: for 27 years almost to help me.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Marshall.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm too cowardly and undisciplined

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_03]: doing this crap by myself.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I need help.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what's a daily question you ask yourself?

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_03]: One of them, did my do my best to be happy today?

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I do my best to set clear goals?

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I have a bunch of health questions.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_03]: How many steps did I take?

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm good on the step one.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_03]: How much do I weigh?

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a bunch of questions about life.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Every day.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess what it does is it helps you keep discipline.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So like let's say you're concerned about health

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and you make this something that you

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_01]: consciously ask yourself and write down.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's there front and center in your head.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You might not,

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it'll help you notice a little bit more

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: when you're being undisciplined and snacking and whatever.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like the Honda effect.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like once you get a Honda,

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you notice all the Hondas on the street.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So once you focus on happiness as opposed to achievement,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you start noticing all the opportunities to be happy

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than the opportunities to achieve.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I did not say happiness as opposed to achievement.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: One of my questions is, did you do your best to be happy?

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Another question is,

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: did you do your best to set clear goals?

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And number three,

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: did you do your best to make progress toward goal achievement?

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not knocking achievement here.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's on the list.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It's on the list.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not the same on its happiness though.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What's an example of someone you coached

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: who wasn't coachable, who didn't really,

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you couldn't really get through to?

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_03]: See back to my friend Alan.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Number one, I never tried to make anyone change.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03]: If people say to me,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_03]: proved me this is worthwhile,

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_03]: you know what I'd say?

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_03]: It probably isn't.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't bother.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I got plenty of business and money.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't need this.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't want to do it.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a terrible idea.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds stupid.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Probably is.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Probably a dumb idea.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't bother.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I never coach anybody.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_03]: How do I inspire people to do this stuff?

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I zero effort inspiring anybody.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Option A, you will do all the stuff I talk about.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You do this hard work, et cetera.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to do it great.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't do it by.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to work with you.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So how do I deal with people who don't want to be coached?

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I fire them.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't work with them.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not putting them down.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not bad people.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't care.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Have there been cases where you had to fire people?

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Fire clients?

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes people just don't really want to do this stuff.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Or sometimes people back to our conversation,

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_03]: will you prove to me that this is going to help me get promoted,

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: make more money?

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It may not.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't bother.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're getting promoted while is a decent goal,

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is not necessarily related to being happier or being a better person.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, look, and also it's not necessarily related to being a good leader.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I can help you be perceived as a more effective leader by your key stakeholders.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I can help you get better at these behavior.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You picked the wrong behavior.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, I didn't pick the behavior you did.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't pick the stakeholders you did.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't say this is worthwhile.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You did.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm helping you get better.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: What you said was important.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's judged by people you told me were important.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not making you do anything.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What if though excess ambition is really leading to less happiness?

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, it's good to be goal oriented and achievement oriented and happiness oriented.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But what if they are not independent variables?

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: What if-

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, I do believe they're independent variables.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a whole different thing.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So on the other hand, what's your question getting-

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They're independent variables, but what if excess ambition is keeping you from being happy?

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_03]: When you say excess ambition, what does that mean?

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's say a politician is only going to be happy if they want to be president of the United States.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And so all their goals, everything they do is just I got to be president or are going to be unhappy.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they'll be president.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like one of these tennis players, I'll only be-

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they're so ambitious.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard for them to get off of the addiction.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's the point.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: The tennis player has no idea what they're talking about when they say that.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, go talk to Curtis Martin.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Ask him how the national football players do after they win the Super Bowl.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Curtis gave the speech at the NFL this year to all the rookies.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what he said?

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I want you to think of somebody you hate.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Someone you want to have a miserable life.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you what to do.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You give them a lot of fame and money when they're very young and watch what happens.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Curtis is a very smart man, very deep guy.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: My question is how do you wean yourself off that addiction for fame and money?

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, you don't have to try to achieve fame and money.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That's okay.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Nothing wrong with achieving fame and or money.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That's fine.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't have that much money, but I have moderate amount of fame.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You have a moderate amount of fame.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, nothing wrong with that.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: If we didn't have any fame, nobody would know who we are or listen to this call right now.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_03]: The key is don't just fixate on it and make that your value as a human being.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so let's say some people fixate on it more than others.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you wean yourself off the drug?

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Like for instance, I don't fixate on taking crack every day.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's no problem for me to not smoke crack every day.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Only occasionally.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But like if someone's addicted to crack, it's a little harder for them.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't recall saying anything was easy.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: This stuff's hard.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Why do I have to have...

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, if I had my shit together, would I have to have someone call me personally on the phone every day for 27 years?

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the time when you've been unhappy?

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_03]: What's... what's that?

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm very happy on the whole.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: That's... I don't have that as a problem.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But like what's the time when you really needed that coach?

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I can look back at my life.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll give a story.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I was working in the LA city planning department.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_03]: This story changed my life and I was negative, angry, blah, blah, blah, judgmental.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So my old advisor, Dr. Case calls me and says, Marshall.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, what's the problem here?

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He says, Marshall, go see him.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Marshall Goldsmith, you have discovered that the city government of Los Angeles is inefficient.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_03]: What a stunning breakthrough.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, my barber knows that.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any other problems?

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_03]: He goes, oh, Marshall Goldsmith, oh, why is one?

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You have discovered when people donate millions of dollars to politicians,

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_03]: they're probably nicer to those people than those who haven't said don't give them money.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_03]: My barber knows that.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, Marshall, you're coming across as negative pain in the ass judgmental.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_03]: You're annoying me.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, Marshall, moving forward, you can have two options.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Option A is son is have a good time here.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_03]: He's still trying to do good, still trying to achieve, have some fun.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Just have fun and enjoy yourself.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Option B, you're fired and you're never going to graduate

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and you wasted the last five years of your life.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, son, what's it going to be?

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, Dr. Case, it's time to be happy, sir.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, sir.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_03]: That was great.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll tell you that was great advice.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I never forgot it.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Grow up.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: A few weeks ago, I tried something that I'll call a no-complaining diet.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So I tried very, very hard to notice whenever I was complaining and just stop it.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Good.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was very interesting because I found out I'm complaining almost all the time

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and so is everyone.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you start to notice when other people are doing it

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and so is everyone else.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone is just complaining all the time.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Damn, man, man, man, man.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Right?

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_03]: See, you did it, right?

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You're getting better.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I got a little better and then I kind of forgot to do it.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You want to continue to improve.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Every day you're going to evaluate yourself on one question.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I avoid complaining today?

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Now here's the point.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_03]: There's one point you don't get about all this stuff.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You keep thinking that you're going to get there

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and if you don't get there, there's something wrong with the process.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no there.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to do better at this complaining thing,

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_03]: don't think you're going to get there so you never complain again.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_03]: You can totally understand everything, get better for a year

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and someday you're going to be pissed off and start complaining.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_03]: That means the end of the world.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You say start over tomorrow.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, start over tomorrow is an important insight.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, start over.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Because sometimes I think, oh, I just spent the last X number of months

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_01]: wasting my time or whatever and then I regret.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you did.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you ready?

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure you've done this.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Now your first name is James, is that correct?

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Raise it right at the end. Repeat after me.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is James.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is James.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I forgive myself for just being human.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I forgive myself for just being human.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you haven't quite got there yet.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_03]: This is good.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_03]: This is good.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Just forgive yourself.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You're human, man.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to screw up.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We screw up all the time.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, I said my name is Marshall.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm cowardly.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm undisciplined.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't do all this shit by myself.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I need help every day.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Why?

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll forget it.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I get busy.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Crap happens all the time.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Act like an asshole.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Why me human being?

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask you, like, you do a lot of coaching.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You spend a lot of time writing.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You're writing all these books.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You've written excellent books.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you do when in your spare time?

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you do as like a hobby?

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I do for fun?

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_03]: If I could do anything right now for fun,

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: you know what it'd be?

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Birdwatching.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I talked to some guy with crazy hair on a podcast.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, you don't know this, James,

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_03]: but I've made a real sacrifice to be here today

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: talking with you.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to make you feel bad about it,

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_03]: but you know what I could have been doing today

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: rather than talking to you?

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I could have been playing crappy golf with old men

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_03]: at the country club while eating chicken salad sandwiches

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_03]: and discuss gallbladder surgery.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I passed up that opportunity to talk with you.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm grateful.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I have gratitude for that.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_03]: What the hell am I going to do anyway, right?

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Play bad golf with old men.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to do that shit.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You think you can do that?

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God, forget it.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you were saying me.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, definitely.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: My wife and I went to play golf once and she was so...

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say we were bad.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: She was so ashamed of being around me while...

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm literally like, she...

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, the other people,

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there was another group paired with us.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They actually went on ahead of us

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: because they didn't want to be seen.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I was doing...

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really understand the etiquette of the golf course

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and it just got like the guards or whatever had to come up to us

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and say, hey, are you guys okay?

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we were just...

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just messing up so bad.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't play golf either.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Look, my neighbor where I used to live was a guy named Craig Stadler.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So he wanted to master his degree as a big pro.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_03]: His kid was Kevin Stadler who's now in the pro tour.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_03]: His kid was a number two golfer in the world

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_03]: when he was 12 for his age.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Wow.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He comes over to visit my house.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_03]: My daughter's there.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He's 12 years old.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_03]: He says, oh, my daughter says, oh, this little Kevin Stadler.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_03]: He plays golf.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going, oh, no, no, no, don't go there.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_03]: So he goes, my daddy plays golf.

[00:53:10] Oh, shit.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So a little guy says, what's your handicap, sir?

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I said 31.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he starts laughing.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He says, what's really your handicap?

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_03]: He couldn't believe any human could be that bad.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He was 12 yet a handicap of one.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And is he on the tour now?

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: What's that?

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He's on the tour now, you said, right?

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, he's on the tour.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like that's a fun way to live life is to just play a game all day.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, could be or not.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, maybe you might think it's unfulfilling.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You think of those people on the Olympics.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Whoa, man.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Look at the statistics there after they quit.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Not too pretty.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I know.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had several Olympic athletes like metal winners on this podcast who were suicidal.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so hard, I think it's a hard thing.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That's particularly hard because the rewards are so, you know, small.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's no monetary award and then the fame, the quote unquote fame is only very

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: fleeting unless you're like Michael Phelps or something.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then even he gets depressed and so on.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's tough.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That is if you think this is going to lead to happiness, peace, whatever.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Or you know what we believe?

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all going to be okay when, when I get the money status BMW condominium, everything's

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_03]: going to be fine when there isn't a win every day you start over.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_03]: There's no win.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and you know, you keep pointing out correctly that I keep associating that with not desiring

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: achievement.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like in my head I'm still making like what if you lose your desire for achievement?

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Now remember one of my daily questions every day for me is did I set clear goals to make

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_03]: progress toward achieving my goals is one of my every day I do that.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to kind of like ignore.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I have to ignore this, this, this weird gut feeling as opposed to focusing on the questions themselves.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This is very good.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Ready for some free coaching?

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_03]: For some reason you seem to have a fear that if you don't have some sort of fear

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_03]: or a version or something that you're not going to achieve enough and that you won't

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_03]: continue to be this ridiculous achiever that you have been in the past.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I am not worried in the future about your lack of achievement.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you may have other problems in the future, but that one's not really crossing my

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_03]: mind.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And by the way it's not like I haven't achieved anything.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I've achieved a thing or two.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So, but I almost said, but let me figure out how to say this.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Is my desire to achieve related to that fear though?

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Could be.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's also probably related to this some, which I think is a totally misguided belief

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_03]: that after I achieve that I'm going to be happy at peace.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Life is good.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Everything will be fine.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Not really.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, look how much you've already achieved.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Good Lord.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, come on man.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Give me a break.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That was yesterday though.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't be too hard on the boy there.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You've done okay.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You did okay.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That was yesterday though.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What about today?

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it's okay.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_03]: It's totally over.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Now let me give you another possibility.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's assume you try something new and fall on your ass.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So what?

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Try something new later.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to die.

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to starve to death, right?

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not going to die.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Who cares?

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You do something, you try hard.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You do your best.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You enjoy it and it didn't work.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't work.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Shit happens sometimes.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the forgiving yourself.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Just start over.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Forgive yourself.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_03]: We're just human here.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Just human.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's screw up sometimes.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me ask you what's your goal for this Marshall Goldsmith.ai?

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, what I want to do is give away as much as I can to as many people as

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I can.

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And how I'm 75, I'm going to die anyway.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's, you know, intellectual property.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: What do I care?

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And I can say that there's, and you, you send me $10 million tomorrow.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_03]: My life's not going to change one I owed.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not getting another car or house, kids.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to buy anything anyway.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to give everything away.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it's a great way to give away everything I can.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_03]: The damn thing is amazing.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me give you an example.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_03]: My daughter wants to trick it.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And so she says, oh, my daughter's a professor at marketing at Vanderbilt here.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_03]: She went and trick it.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_03]: She says, how as you're coaching related to utilitarian philosophy?

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what utilitarian philosophy is.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_03]: He studies utilitarian philosophy and studies my coaching figures out how it's connected.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Things of what I would say by the way, put three million words in this thing.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So it knows me very well.

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Figures out how I would answer the question and answers it in my voice in five seconds.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's mind blowing to me.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it is to you, but to me this is just mind blowing.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's amazing what when AI talks back, it's amazing the things it says.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I find it mind blowing.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And so also I use the other AI bots to train my bot.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I like the Claude bot myself.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_03]: That's my favorite of the others.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never used it.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I've used just chat GBT.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_03]: You should try the Claude bot.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I like it better.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'd say again, I don't want to criticize other bots, but you know, I like the Claude bot of those.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I like yours, the second one.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the Gemini and not that Fondo.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So I like the Claude bot.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: The Claude bot is actually more literary, I think too.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So if my bot can't answer a question, but I think it should be able to answer the question.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I ask the question to Claude.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Then Claude, I ask the Claude what would Marshall Goldsmith, how would Marshall Goldsmith,

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03]: or no, let's say, who's a philosopher you like?

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Say pick one.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Me?

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Or you're asking the AI?

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You pick a philosopher.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, you.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll go with Victor Frankel, who I view as a full-time.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Victor Frankel.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very enjoyable.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's say you asked Marshall Bot, how is your coaching related to the philosophy of Victor Frankel?

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_03]: If it knows, it should know.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_03]: What if it knows great?

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But if it doesn't know, I go to Claude and I say, how is the philosophy of Victor Frankel related to Marshall Goldsmith's coaching?

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It'll answer the question.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, the parts of it that I like, I keep, and parts of it I don't like, I get rid of.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I've done this over and over and over again, so that's how I train it.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I see, so not only did you feed in all these words, like let's say you fed in all your books and it learned from that.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But you also then kind of did training of what's good and bad and so on.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it remains trained.

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't just stay trained for that day.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It remains trained.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, here's another interesting point.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Every computer bot is biased.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So my computer bot is right, they're all biased.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: The Gemini one is the one that had the, you know, the case study, the Gemini and the pictures and all this stuff, right?

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, that thing just blew up.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Every computer bot is biased.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: If you ask a computer about a question, what is leadership?

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_03]: There are 100 possible answers.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: As soon as you pick an answer, it's biased by something.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my computer bot is biased by me.

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I am the bias.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying my answers are good answers or the right answers.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: All I'm saying is these are my answers, but at least you know whose answers they are.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_03]: They're my answers.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And everything is, if you like it, great.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: If you don't like it, ignore it.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's free anyway.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely going to play around with it and learn from it.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you go from like urban planning and mathematics to executive coaching?

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, my PhD is actually in organizational behavior and I met a famous guy named Dr. Paul Hersey.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, Dr. Paul Hersey is a big deal in our field of time.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Highest paid consultant in the world doing what we do.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And he let me sit in the back of his class.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I watched him.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, man, that guy's good.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to be him when I grow up.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to be like him.

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So I said, look, I'll serve the coffee, you know, do anything.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Just let me sit in the back and watch.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I did.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: One day he got double booked.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, can you do what I do?

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, I don't know.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I'll pay a thousand bucks for a day.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to get 15,000 bucks for a year.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm from Valley Station, Kentucky.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: We didn't we had an outhouse the first four years I was in school.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I wasn't part of it.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Harvard Prep here.

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I said a thousand bucks a day.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, that was a long time ago.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_03]: 47 years ago, a thousand bucks a day.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I said?

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Sign me up.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I did a program for the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: They are phenomenally pissed off when I show up because I'm not him.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But they love me.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm telling jokes, having fun.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: The other people are stiff, finance people, boring.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, sit in him again.

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We love him.

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We love him.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So he calls me up and says, you want to do this again?

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I said there's a bear shit in the woods.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll do this again.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's how I got into leadership development and coaching.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I met a guy who was at the time, C.F.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Company called Warner Lambert.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, I got this kid working for us young, smart, dedicated, hardworking, driven to achieve arrogant, stubborn, know-it-all jerk.

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: He said, it'd be worth that fortune to me that kid was changed his behavior.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, I like fortunes, but maybe I could help him.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I doubt it.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Came up with the idea.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll work with a kid for a year.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_03]: He gets better pay me, don't get betters free.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what he said?

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Sold.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_03]: There was nothing called coaching.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I just made it up.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've done very good at it.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Your books have inspired millions.

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the titles of your books, by the way.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think The Earned Life is a great title.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What got you here won't get you there, which is how successful people become even more successful.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Mojo, how to get it, how to keep it, how to get it back if you lose it.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one that I honestly haven't read, but I didn't realize that one existed.

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's the first one I have to buy right now about Mojo.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: That was good.

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's all good.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Marshall Goldsmith, I hope people try out MarshallGoldsmith.ai.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to try it out.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to use it.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ask myself these questions every morning as well.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you've already...

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: This is why I do a podcast, by the way, is to have people like you on and then get free coaching.

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the entire reason I do a podcast.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much for participating in my giant experiment.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: That's great.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you very much for inviting me.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been wonderful to talk to you.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.